The Start of Misinformation, Misunderstandings, and Acknowledging Lack of Knowledge

[livinlifeinBKK]

As another example non reef related, I know a guy who truly believes all doctors became doctors to harm and even kill their patients. He will state that explicitly without explanation and with conviction to anyone. What if he were to spread that information to a vulnerable group of children and convince them every doctor wants to harm them? I agree this is an extreme example (true though) but wouldn't simply admitting or implying somehow these were his personal views go a long way?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Ok. I understand your point, but rest assured that most people will take that information as an oppinion anyway. This is not a scientific journal or website, it is a community forum. Most people understand that information here should be weighed against others. And yes, that's my opinion.

How people take it I have no control over. I'm simply trying to start a dialogue on an issue I see

 

[52728299]

LOL, you have to get old to understand the concept. Older than PC which just became a thing a very few years ago. Being old, and being I was brought up when Eisenhower was President we didn't have anything PC. Most of that thinking was of course wrong as we were brought up with a lot of prejudices. It's just the way it was and it got that way by the way this country (USA) was populated.

People from different cultures using different languages came here from Europe and didn't trust each other. Here where I live in New York we had an Irish section, Chinese section, German section, black sections and Italian section. We couldn't communicate with each other which caused mistrust.

I, like most of us got over all of that and I don't see any difference in any culture but many from my generation still hold grudges even if they are unfounded.

But the difference between us older people and millenniums is that most of our parents fought in a war and when we turned 18 (the males) we were drafted and the service removed all of that silly inconsequential thinking that causes many arguments today. If we served in a war zone it totally removed all of that thinking and gave us very thick skin that you can't get by using Coppertone.

You can't believe something just because it is in print. I published quite a few articles in paper magazines before computers and virtually anything I wrote was published as fact. I could have wrote that feeding grasshoppers to groupers would cause them to spawn twice a day for 6 months then they would turn into copper band butterflies and it would have been published.

I also wrote a book but there also were no fact checkers so much of the information I could have made up in a drunken, LSD laden rant. Just saying.

You are also correct old people have wrinkly skin and even older people have lousy memories. My memory is no where near what it was even 20 years ago. But the things I do remember came about by trial and error, not from a scientist who may not even have a gold fish tank in his old Grand Mothers house.

You having thick skin =/= young people having thin skin

 

[Mikey-D]

Im just gonna leave this here

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Ok. I understand your point, but rest assured that most people will take that information as an oppinion anyway. This is not a scientific journal or website, it is a community forum. Most people understand that information here should be weighed against others. And yes, that's my opinion.

Btw, I really am just curious...did you read my full original post? You said I should be rest assured that "most people will take that information as an opinion anyway". Is the reason you think they'll take it as an opinion due to the fact that I included the following in the post?:
"NOTE: I explicitly said that this is what I think happens implying it's my opinion. Also, I'm only human too and sure I've made careless statements but am trying my best to do better."

 

[exnisstech]

I've heard that in the past people had a little tougher skin and weren't so easily offended but I'm in my mid 20s and from my experience people get personally offended by simple things such as using a statement they made as an example.

I'll admit I didn't read all of the posts. I agree with your original post and the above statement particularly. I'm 62 and am totally discusted with the direction the human population is heading. I won't go into details as it would end up with me being banned. But you are correct, not all but many of the younger generation are a bunch of thin skinned wussies.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Im just gonna leave this here

I expected interesting dialogue to ensue but I think most people agree with what I said and I think I was pretty clear for those who took the time to read through it. I expected there to be one or two people who neglected to read it but leave comments anyway...(they wouldnt take the time to read the comments either to realize their planned comment is actually pretty contrary to the majority that did read of course either).

 

[i cant think]

I expected interesting dialogue to ensue but I think most people agree with what I said and I think I was pretty clear for those who took the time to read through it. I expected there to be one or two people who neglected to read it but leave comments anyway...(they wouldnt take the time to read the comments either to realize their planned comment is actually pretty contrary to the majority that did read of course either).

I think a lot of us have been lurking just watching for the one or two replies that are different haha

 

[Cell]

Without places like R2R, we would be at the whim of our average LFS. Misinformation is everywhere and everyone needs to do their own due diligence in determining what is factual and what is not.

 

[X-37B]

Well interesting thread for sure.

IMO, so many people make it harder than needed. I have tried to help people and still talk to a few. The problem is prevelant in many areas of this hobby.

When coral vendors, and I wont quote names, say you need to keep you alk at ocean levels and then say thats 8-9 alk it makes you wonder.
Check a few and you will see, its out thier.

Many failures never started with a plan from day one. Sad but true.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Without places like R2R, we would be at the whim of our average LFS. Misinformation is everywhere and everyone needs to do their own due diligence in determining what is factual and what is not.

Agreed. I think I actually wrote something very similar in my post.

 

[Mikey-D]

I expected interesting dialogue to ensue but I think most people agree with what I said and I think I was pretty clear for those who took the time to read through it. I expected there to be one or two people who neglected to read it but leave comments anyway...(they wouldnt take the time to read the comments either to realize their planned comment is actually pretty contrary to the majority that did read of course either).

Its interesting to see what people have to say when a question, statement, idealogy is put out there to the masses and what may be contrary to their own believes and see the reactions.

Everyone has a matter of fact about themselves and because it may not be scientificly proven, things may have workedusing due process and I believe in sharing said beliefs. But I also 100% believe we need the peer review in the scientific community and the fact that we are playing mini scientists with an ecological system in our homes we do need to bounce our findings here. Forums are the best peer review for people who are acuarist and hobbyist and not trainind scientist who understand data and can dycipher it and be able to recreate it from the data published.

Bonus Opinion: If you taking offense to something being said here because it goes against your beliefs or thoughts than maybe you should take a step back and appreciate the original post for being what it is. A discussion not to persuade or change anyones thoughts but to inspire dialogue and a meeting of the minds. Not ridicule or blame. And please believe me I am an elder millennial as were labled now...what the heck ever....I am currently serving and I can tell you now, this generation, my generation, your generation...guess what everyone who came before you were tougher and more thick skinned and well say the same stuff about the next ones to come and vise versa. Adapt and overcome or get the **** out of the way.

 

[mijan]

I expected interesting dialogue to ensue but I think most people agree with what I said and I think I was pretty clear for those who took the time to read through it. I expected there to be one or two people who neglected to read it but leave comments anyway...(they wouldnt take the time to read the comments either to realize their planned comment is actually pretty contrary to the majority that did read of course either).

I find this to be way to prevalent. Many times advice is given to an asked question or problem and its clear by the answer they didnt read the post

 

[rtparty]

Misinformation has been around since the world began. The internet has amplified it.

It will never stop, go away, or lessen. It will only get worse.

 

[Cell]

The forums are no different than real life. I'm not sure it's fair to expect people trying to share their knowledge and help others to back their claims up with some sort of empirical evidence. That's not how casual conversations go in person. Personally, I like to share what I know and have experienced, but typically refrain from spelling every little detail out. If someone is interested, they can delve further into the topic themselves or ask for elaboration or proof. But it should not be expected in every interaction or whenever advice is doled out. This is especially true in a hobby where there are a multitude of ways to be successful.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

First of all in this day and age I first have to state this is aimed to offend nobody and is not intended to offend in any way. This is something I do, however , feel is important for someone to say and since nobody else has said it yet I will. I THINK a lot of misinformation gets started on internet forums and this one is no exception. The way it starts (I think) is from people unintentionally making claims from anecdotal evidence which sound like and are presented as if they are facts supported by empirical data. Another primary source is from people making blanket statements regarding various organisms which are not supported by the currently accepted scientific research (maybe in the same genus for example) which actually have significant variations in the real world. This is something I've encountered multiple times here and although taxonomy does group organisms together based on traits, it does so based upon VERY specific similarities and not by making blanket statements formed over the course of 5 minutes. Because people commonly fail to mention that their statements are opinions or gathered from personal experience and not scientific research or empirical data there are almost certainly people who see the statement and take it as a fact and later repeat what they heard in the same way and spread it further.
Also sometimes we just don't know the answer to a question we've been asked. It DOESN'T MAKE YOU dumb because you don't know the answer. It's perfectly fine and honest to say "I don't know" or something similar. I've seen countless times people provide answers that simply aren't true because they just don't want to admit to not knowing. Another thing I see people do sometimes is add a lot of qualifiers in their answer to try to make it sound like their previously untrue statement is true at times no matter how rare it may be. There's nothing wrong in simply admitting you don't know or acknowledging something you previously said is incorrect instead of trying to justify it.

NOTE: I explicitly said that this is what I think happens implying it's my opinion. Also, I'm only human too and sure I've made careless statements but am trying my best to do better.

The purpose of this lengthy post is to #1 make new members aware they should be trusting research backed by evidence and make them aware there are many opinions shared in this hobby that are simply opinions and not fact and #2 to encourage people to be a little more conscious about claims they make and if they're opinions to state that or imply it in some way.

It's midday here but know it's the middle of the night for most people and do feel there is importance in trying to avoid the spread of misinformation so I may bump the thread a little later.

R2R is a great resource we have. Let's keep it that way and even improve by letting people know the level of reliability of information being spread on the site.

This is a topic that I've spent quite a bit of time pondering. In fact, in my fish disease book there is a chapter on "Starting with Heathy Animals" and a sub-section of that is a section on "researching prior to purchase". In it, I discuss online forums:

Internet forums / Facebook
This form of information exchange is by far the most commonly used at the present time. Since the member base of most of these groups is huge, there is a wealth of information to draw from. Many forums are very active, meaning that answers to questions may be posted within minutes or hours. However, aquarists need to plan their information requests somewhat; posting an emergency question at 2 a.m. on a Monday morning will probably not result in a proper response within a hoped-for 30-minute time frame. There has also been the creation of what is termed “Niche Experts” – people on a particular forum, (or section of a forum) that have become the local expert on certain topics. Utilizing them for information works well as long as these people supplying the information are truly experts in their fields and not that they just know “just a bit more” than the people they are responding to. Another problem is when these niche experts then begin to expound on other topics that they are not quite as familiar with. Their status as an expert belies the fact that they do not have as strong of a knowledge base on other topics that they might branch out into. Finally, there is the issue of the “loudest person is the most informative”. Facebook groups often see this; a person, or group of people will espouse some particularly inaccurate advice, and then “shout down” anyone who disagrees with them. The recipient of said poor advice reads the presumed consensus and therefore assumes in must be accurate, but that may not be the case at all.

The complete article this material was adapted from is here:

Media Review: Information Resources for Home Aquarists

Jay reviews different information resources for marine aquarist.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

The forums are no different than real life. I'm not sure it's fair to expect people trying to share their knowledge and help others to back their claims up with some sort of empirical evidence. That's not how casual conversations go in person. Personally, I like to share what I know and have experienced, but typically refrain from spelling every little detail out. If someone is interested, they can delve further into the topic themselves or ask for elaboration or proof. But it should not be expected in every interaction or whenever advice is doled out. This is especially true in a hobby where there are a multitude of ways to be successful.

Can you do me a favor and quote the parts of my post you're referring to?

I never said others should have to back up every one of their claims with empirical evidence.
I never advocated spelling every little detail out, only one detail. This detail could even be implied as I said.
I never said anything had to be proved to who you're talking to at all.

If there are misunderstandings I'd love to clarify.

 

[Cell]

I'd say not every response to a thread like this is in direct response to your original post. I'm adding my own thoughts and opine to the general topic.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Guilty. For example, I posted recommendations for the use of Vibrant. It was based on what I saw in my tank, what I read from certain trusted vendors, and information acquired on reef forums. My observations turned out to be short sighted and the information I used to make the decision to start using Vibrant was just plain false. I wish that was the only misinformation I have been guilty of unknowingly spreading over the years. I try to be more careful now. I know that my suggestions are based on my limited understanding and try to make sure others take that into consideration.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'd say not every response to a thread like this is in direct response to your original post. I'm adding my own thoughts and opine to the general topic.

Oh ok...I agree then...you shouldn't have to back every little thing up with empirical evidence...