Trace elements by contrast

[NEFFx]

I haven’t seen much of the trace elements I’d like on my icp tests. Trying to do some comparisons on how to get the trace elements in my tank the best way. These are all said to exist in natural seawater etc.

How do you get your trace in the reef and how do you measure them?

my last ICP test attached. I have dosed 100ml a day of part C for a year. Also fuel at 20ml a day. I think it’s strange so many trace are 0. I use Red Sea pro salt.

Red Sea
A: I2 | Br2 | F2
B: K | B
C: FE and eight “light” metals that includes iron, manganese, cobalt, copper, aluminum, zinc, chrome and nickel
D: 18 trace. silver gold vanadium tungsten - I couldn’t find the rest of these.


Tropic Marin
Pro-Coral K+ Trace 1 Contains:

• Barium
• Boron
• Chrome
• Cobalt
• Iron
• Copper
• Manganese
• Nickel
• Strontium
• Zinc

Pro-Coral K+ Trace 1 Contains:

• Barium
• Boron
• Chrome
• Cobalt
• Iron
• Copper
• Manganese
• Nickel
• Strontium
• Zinc

The below is all I can grasp in what’s in part C. Would like to get clarity on the icp of part C. Tropic Marin® PRO-REEF contains all major- and minor elements in the exact proportions found in tropical sea water.

Major Elements:

Calcium; Chlorine; Magnesium; Potassium; Sodium; Sulfur.

Trace Elements:

Aluminium; Antimony; Arsenic; Barium; Beryllium; Bismuth; Boron; Bromine; Cadmium; Caesium; Carbon; Cerium; Chromium; Cobalt; Copper; Dysprosium; Erbium; Europium; Fluorine; Gadolinium; Gallium; Germanium; Gold; Hafnium; Holmium; Indium; Iodine; Iridium; Iron; Lanthanum; Lead; Lithium; Lutetium; Manganese; Mercury; Molybdenum; Neodymium; Nickel; Niobium; Nitrogen; Osmium; Palladium; Platinum; Praseodymium; Rhenium; Rhodium; Rubidium; Ruthenium; Samarium; Scandium; Selenium; Silicon; Silver; Strontium; Tantalum; Tellurium; Terbium; Thallium; Thorium; Thulium; Tin; Titanium; Tungsten; Vanadium; Ytterbium; Yttrium; Zinc; Zirconium.
The above is from tropic Marin website.

Seachem
Reef plus

Minerals (min. values)
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C)	5.0 mg
Thiamin (B1)	0.02 mg
Riboflavin (B2)	0.02 mg
Niacin (B3)	0.25 mg
Pantothenate (B5)	0.07 mg
Vitamin B12	0.9 µg
Choline (B4)	0.004 mg
Inositol	0.011 mg
Arginine	0.16 mg
Glutamate	0.9 mg
Lysine	0.3 mg
Tyrosine	0.19 mg

Vitamins & Lipotropic Factors (min values)
Boron	0.096 mg
Iodine	0.18 mg
Iron	0.009 mg
Copper	0.001 mg
Zinc	0.005 mg
Manganese	0.062 mg
Bromide	0.3 mg
Cobalt	0.004 mg
Molybdenum	0.16 mg
Vanadium	0.0003 mg
Nickel	0.00035 mg
Tin	0.001 mg
Rubidium	0.001 mg

reef trace

Amounts per 1 g
Boron (B)	0.028 mg
Cobalt (Co)	0.0003 mg
Copper (Cu)	0.032 mg
Manganese (Mn)	0.085 mg
Molybdenum (Mo)	0.003 mg
Zinc (Zn)	0.169 mg
Rubidium (Rb)	0.00008 mg
Nickel (Ni)	0.00003 mg
Vanadium (V)	0.00002 mg

Brightwell

replenish
Ingredients
Purified water, Salts of Barium, Vanadium, Zinc, Nickel, Chromium, Iron, Manganese, Hafnium, Cobalt, Lanthanum, Neodymium, Cerium, Silver, Dysprosium, Gadolinium, Ytterbium, Erbium, Scandium, Samarium , Praseodymium, Holmium, Lutetium, Terbium, Europium, and Thulium

Korall vm
Zinc (min) 0.0305 mg/oz.; Iron (min) 0.00315 mg/oz.; Manganese (min) 0.00172 mg/oz.; Vitamin-A Propionate (min): 9.8 IU/oz.; Thiamine (B1) (min): 7.5 mg/oz.; Riboflavin (B2) (min): 7.5 mg/oz.; Niacin (B3) (min): 132.5 mg/oz.; Pantothenic Acid (B5) (min): 19.5 mg/oz.; Pyridoxine (B6) (min): 7.5 mg/oz.; Biotin (B7) (min): 0.4 mcg/oz.; Folic Acid (B9) (min): 1.0 mcg/oz.; Cyanocobalamin (B12) (min): 1.9 mcg/oz.; Ascorbic Acid (C) (min): 180 mg/oz.; Cholecalciferol (D) (min): 780 IU/oz.; Tocopherol (E) (min): 22.8 IU/oz.; Menadione (K) (min): 0.008 mcg/oz.

 

[blaxsun]

Most of the time water changes will replace the bulk of your trace elements. Myself, I use Nyos Iodine, Strontium and Active Elements with Tropic Marin salt.

 

[NEFFx]

I understand that concept. However I question the validity of that only because (and this may be backwards) the icp test doesn’t show any of the trace elements that are in the salt.
Also trace elements should be added in conjunction with the use of calcium and alkalinity. as you dose those individually, the same is with trace (hence part C or ESV additives in some of their two parts).

this also helps explain why it’s best to add trace after the “first year” since most of your initial 100% new salt trace elements are depleted, from the also larger coral.

The potential proof of this is that that was the case wouldn’t we have trace elements in our ICP tests? I do about 15% every 2-4 weeks.

so if trace elements should be added with 2 part. What trace would you use. And how would you measure it?

 

[NEFFx]

Most of the time water changes will replace the bulk of your trace elements. Myself, I use Nyos Iodine, Strontium and Active Elements with Tropic Marin salt.

NYOS also says on their site that water changes are not sufficient. And thus sell the ones you dose. Which are similar to the others. Do you have icp results with those elements?

I think it’s great to supply these. I just wish I could either measure these or understand more so what’s in all these products, since so many add similar elements.

NYOS

Active iodine INGREDIENTS​

iodine, fluorine, potassium, boron, molybdenum and others

Strontium INGREDIENTS​

strontium, barium, molybdenum, lithium and others

Active elements INGREDIENTS
iron, potassium, cobalt, manganese, zinc, nickel, chrome and others

 

[blaxsun]

I don't have a recent ICP result, no. I probably should get another lab test done to find out what if anything is off. I dose 2x the Active Elements over the others.

 

[taricha]

Also fuel at 20ml a day. I think it’s strange so many trace are 0.

What product are you referring to "fuel"?

Most trace elements ought to be at or below the practical limits of detection (LoD) for ICP.

some of those that are often added at levels above the LoDs are rapidly depleted.
T-M Part C (and many other Trace products) have no indication of the actual amounts of these trace elements that are provided.

All that to say - zeros are not as strange as you think they are.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would also clarify that some of these products are not intended to supplement trace elements. Balling Part C, for example. It's only purpose is to keep the salinity changes from using calcium chloride and sodium carbonate from lowering everything else. It is not intended to offset any in tank consumption or loss.

 

[NEFFx]

I would also clarify that some of these products are not intended to supplement trace elements. Balling Part C, for example. It's only purpose is to keep the salinity changes from using calcium chloride and sodium carbonate from lowering everything else. It is not intended to offset any in tank consumption or loss.

I have been told by Hans that part C is “everything in reef pro salt besides the a, b and sodium”. And I think there should be more info on what’s in it. I agree I heard the same on the BRS video. It’s just not what’s pushed by TM. And in a similar mentality. Why not have A and K in their balling method or even mentioned?

What product are you referring to "fuel"?

Most trace elements ought to be at or below the practical limits of detection (LoD) for ICP.

some of those that are often added at levels above the LoDs are rapidly depleted.
T-M Part C (and many other Trace products) have no indication of the actual amounts of these trace elements that are provided.

All that to say - zeros are not as strange as you think they are.

regarding fuel. That’s aquavitro fuel. It’s great stuff.

looking more into trace and what’s provided in other supplements. I think Red Sea ABCD is the best trace supplement. From what I can find and discern with mysterious “other ingredients” companies.

that said regarding ICP tests. Isn’t the whole point of them to detect the ppm levels for trace. To be frank, Isn’t that the whole point behind the “Triton method” which started the ICP trend. Is that you can detect all the trace elements and properly “tune” your water.

i just got the, what seems better, ICP Mass Spec that tests 50 trace down to pptrillion Images attached.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been told by Hans that part C is “everything in reef pro salt besides the a, b and sodium”. And I think there should be more info on what’s in it. I agree I heard the same on the BRS video. It’s just not what’s pushed by TM. And in a similar mentality. Why not have A and K in their balling method or even mentioned?

I know exactly what is in Part C and so does Hans. He and I also agree that it is not intended as a trace element supplement, despite having some in it.

what it is intended to do is as follows:

when you use sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide and calcium chloride for alk and calcium, salinity rises from the accumulation sodium and chloride.

when you maintain salinity by replacing some tank water with fresh (as must happen somehow), every other ion is driven down. Magnesium, sulfate, potassium, iron, etc.

Part C adds these back in the proper ratio to offset that change from the salinity correction.

It is not intended for, nor desirable to use it for offsetting any demand for trace elements used up in the tank by organisms.

Thus, it should NOT be compared to trace element supplements. It is a very wrong composition for that.

 

[rtparty]

Look up Reef Moonshiners for trace elements. It will go everything you need to know. Andre's system is fantastic.

Avoid ICP Analysis (the company) at all costs. It's been shown time and time again they don't have a clue what they're doing.

ATI is the preferred ICP right now. Oceamo's new ICP MS looks very promising but is like $80 per test. Too much to use monthly IMO but may be worth using a couple times a year. I hope ATI starts using MS in the future.

 

[NEFFx]

I know exactly what is in Part C and so does Hans. He and I also agree that it is not intended as a trace element supplement, despite having some in it.

what it is intended to do is as follows:

when you use sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide and calcium chloride for alk and calcium, salinity rises from the accumulation sodium and chloride.

when you maintain salinity by replacing some tank water with fresh (as must happen somehow), every other ion is driven down. Magnesium, sulfate, potassium, iron, etc.

Part C adds these back in the proper ratio to offset that change from the salinity correction.

It is not intended for, nor desirable to use it for offsetting any demand for trace elements used up in the tank by organisms.

Thus, it should NOT be compared to trace element supplements. It is a very wrong composition for that.

Well in this case why is it not defined anywhere? So, and it makes a little more sense the way you say it, it is just a little more of the few (this is what needs to be defined) elements that are being added at the same ratio that the salt (NaCl) being added by 2 part. so potentially Hans is correct when he said it’s TM reef salt without A,B, sodium. it’s just a lot more diluted and thus not an adequate source of trace.
however, could you increase the concentration to make it acceptable. For instance I use calcium reactor and Kalk for most of my needs.


Thanks @rtparty i saw reviews saying similar. I’ll give ICP a try since I already have it. My triton just said I had arsenic and I guess others have complained about that. So I’ll try ATI next time. Good info.
Also I’ll look into moonshiners.

 

[taricha]

looking more into trace and what’s provided in other supplements. I think Red Sea ABCD is the best trace supplement. From what I can find and discern with mysterious “other ingredients” companies.

I don't intend this as a knock on red sea ABCD. I use it sometimes.
But it doesn't tell much specific info either.
It tells you the amounts for 1 element each in A, B, and C. There is no way to know if any of the others in ABC are provided in relevant amounts.
Part D they want you to know there are 18 elements, but they will only tell you 4 of them.
email I got form them....
"And as for part D - Bioactive Elements, we listed 4 main elements (of 18 traces) as Silver, Gold, Vandium, and Tungsten. These are in traces amount, undetectable by our hobby test kits, and only recommended to dose based on the aquarium calcium consumption. Any elements not listed are considered a part of our trade recipe and unfortunately we cannot share this information. "

So forget specifying that there are relevant amounts, they won't even tell you what the 14 other elements are.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well in this case why is it not defined anywhere? So, and it makes a little more sense the way you say it, it is just a little more of the few (this is what needs to be defined) elements that are being added at the same ratio that the salt (NaCl) being added by 2 part. so potentially Hans is correct when he said it’s TM reef salt without A,B, sodium. it’s just a lot more diluted and thus not an adequate source of trace.
however, could you increase the concentration to make it acceptable. For instance I use calcium reactor and Kalk for most of my needs.


Thanks @rtparty i saw reviews saying similar. I’ll give ICP a try since I already have it. My triton just said I had arsenic and I guess others have complained about that. So I’ll try ATI next time. Good info.
Also I’ll look into moonshiners.

Yes, Hans is correct. TM part C is defined. It is sodium chloride free salt mix. TM states this explicitly in their web site. So if you know what is in salt water and take away NaCl, that’s basically it. It will still have substantial chloride, and may have some small amount of sodium as well to allow appropriate additions of commercially available components.

 

[NEFFx]

Yes, Hans is correct. TM part C is defined. It is sodium chloride free salt mix. TM states this explicitly in their web site. So if you know what is in salt water and take away NaCl, that’s basically it. It will still have substantial chloride, and may have some small amount of sodium as well to allow appropriate additions of commercially available components.

Website says
“Contains all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water”

so could you just increase the concentration of the part c mix (it’s cheap)? And then dose it as trace element supplement.

 

[NEFFx]

I don't intend this as a knock on red sea ABCD. I use it sometimes.
But it doesn't tell much specific info either.
It tells you the amounts for 1 element each in A, B, and C. There is no way to know if any of the others in ABC are provided in relevant amounts.
Part D they want you to know there are 18 elements, but they will only tell you 4 of them.
email I got form them....
"And as for part D - Bioactive Elements, we listed 4 main elements (of 18 traces) as Silver, Gold, Vandium, and Tungsten. These are in traces amount, undetectable by our hobby test kits, and only recommended to dose based on the aquarium calcium consumption. Any elements not listed are considered a part of our trade recipe and unfortunately we cannot share this information. "

So forget specifying that there are relevant amounts, they won't even tell you what the 14 other elements are.

Sorry, I meant I was looking at all the trace elements and this seems to be the most inclusive. They all have their own view of whats "needed" for coral growth. So thats a discussion and then theres the "whats inside" discussion, which I had another thread on and why I like seachem/aquavitro products (since they actually tell you).

I agree they dont mention it but instead say how many are there - nyos, TM, AF, etc all do this.

at the ed of the day - whatever works. or in my case, just use a little bit of them all.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Website says
“Contains all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water”

so could you just increase the concentration of the part c mix (it’s cheap)? And then dose it as trace element supplement.

No, it would be a disaster. It’s like trying to use a salt mix as a trace element supplement. The major and minor ions will go through the roof.