Treatment Plan Okay?

[Sashaka]

I posted this information in another thread, but didn't get any response, so I thought I'd start a new thread as I'm looking for feedback from people who know better than me how to cure sick fish.

In the MD, the largest banner fish is showing visible signs of of illness now. It's barely visible, like a fine sprinkling of white dots on the body, but it's there. I can only see it on the fish when it hits the light just right. I've looked at so many pictures to try to id, my mind is reeling, and I'm still not sure. All I know at this point is I'm fairly certain the problem came in on the snails I added to the tank without quarantining.

Now with a visible sign of illness and not just scratching on objects in the tank, I don't want to wait to treat with a known effective cure. I have discontinued the current course of treatments using the Kick Ick and Rally. I removed as many snails as I could find (two turbos still in tank somewhere that I couldn't locate and possibly a few cerith snails that the dragon wrasse missed). I then added CopperPower to the tank to support the fish until I have a day off of work to break down the tank - again.

Here's the plan...

I will leave all fish right in the 180 and treat them there (too many fish to put into separate sick tanks at this point). I'll remove all rocks, sand, decorations, etc., on my next day off and put them in the empty 75 gallon. At this point, I will bleach the heck out of everything. I'll run the 75 gallon until bleach does not register during testing for ammonia anymore, and then I'll do a complete water change and dose liberally with water purifier. I'll run a circulation pump and an air stone to recycle everything right in the 75 gal tank. Once everything is fully cycled again, and after a minimum of at least 72 days, I'll transfer everything back to the 180 gal. The fish will be treated in the bare 180 gal with some PVC pipe for hiding while the rock and decorations are recycling.

I have some questions. Will the sand clean up enough in the bleach bath to reuse? I have so much of it. I hate to throw it all away, but if you guys/gals think I should....that's what I'll do.

Also, is there a way to keep the 180 cycled without compromising treatment? I can't use Prime with CopperPower. I wish I could just treat with CP in the tank instead of CopperPower, but I have too many wrasses.

Thoughts or suggestions, please. Many thanks for your support!

(Update: MD in Copper Power two days. Spot band butterfly missing. Short of tearing everything apart, I've searched all visible corners of the tank and cannot locate it. Watching ammonia levels carefully. Found one of the two missing snails today. Removed it to the pod tank. It was still alive. The ruby headed wrasse is breathing hard. The bannerfish looks much improved, though improvement could be just the stage, meaning that the pathogen may have just fallen off the fish in it's normal cycle. Awaiting Hanna copper test kit on back order. In the meantime, API test kit...I think...has copper at correct level).

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Butterflyfish are sensitive to copper. What other fish do you have? Is possible to remove copper sensitive fish to another tank for treatment with CP?

 

[ihavecrabs]

Let's get you some assistance #reefsquad

FWIW, treatment is always best done in a separate tank and without substrate and rocks. I understand that is no longer a choice at this time; however, unless you plan on testing 1-2x daily, I suggest removing all rock and substrate before starting your 30 day timer. Any dip below therapeutic levels will allow the hosts to be reinfected and continue the life cycle.

That said.. Once you remove all your rock to the 75, you'll want to run it with a polyfilter and GAC to remove the traces of copper. While I have heard some success stories, long term effects on pods and inverts may be spotty. I wouldn't reuse the sand personally.

As far as treatment, could you post a picture of the fish with the white spots? Other than flashing against the rocks and substrate and heavy breathing, any other side effects?

My main concern is the timeframe in which you got to therapeutic in the main display. This is likely the reason for heavy breathing and missing fish. Try and get some additional powerheads pointing at the surface to increase gas exchange. Either their gills are damaged or the O2 is low.

 

[S-t-r-e-t-c-h]

Sounds like velvet, so copper treatment was probably the right call. I absolutely hate the idea of dismantling the display tank, as you now have to deal with treatment while the tank is cycling. It sounds like that has already been done though. There's no real good option to speeding the cycle, except move some of the live rock back to the main tank and discard it when treatment is done. Not recommending that but you don't have a ton of options at this point.

I wouldn't go transferring any more snails from the copper to another tank with inverts, for fear of copper transferring via their shells.

Agree on ditching the sand; not worth it. You're going to have to do an immaculate clean out of the display tank & sump before you consider moving inverts or even sand/rock back into it.

Posting this here for reference too...
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

 

[Sashaka]

Butterflyfish are sensitive to copper. What other fish do you have? Is possible to remove copper sensitive fish to another tank for treatment with CP?

I have 3 banner fish and one vagabond butterfly fish as well as the missing spot-band. The other butterfly fish seem to be doing well. They're all still eating. I think I ramped up the copper too fast for the spot band. I was so concerned about possible velvet taking out the whole tank, I added almost the full dose on day one. I think. I'm at therapeutic level now. Hanna high range copper checker ordered. I'm still using API copper test kit right now, and I have trouble reading this test kit. Still, CopperPower has been my go to copper of choice since I came into this hobby several years ago. I've successfully treated sensitive fish many times such as puffers, wrasses, flame angels, engineer gobies, etc., without issues. It is copper, but I've found it to be more gentle on fish and they tolerate it quite well...if I bring the copper level up to therapeutic over four or five days.

I can't really set up another tank...no more room. I'm running six tanks now (soon to be 7 when I start back up the 75 gal this weekend). Right now I'm running four display tanks, a quarantine tank, and my little 3 gal sick tank for the Hippo tang I pulled when this all started. I do have CP on hand, and I really debated about using it...but I feared for my wrasses, so I went with the CopperPower. I have a melenarus, a yellow coris, a green wrasse, a cleaner wrasse, and a ruby head wrasse. in the 180 that I'm treating with CopperPower.

I was able to save a majestic angel with CP when Copper Power didn't work some months back, but I'm not as confident in my ability to use CP as I am with the Copper Power. I've lost several fish to Popeye using CP. My guess is the CP weakens the immune system similar to what antibiotics do, so bacterial and or fungal infections are able to take hold. If I could measure and test the levels of CP in the tank, I would feel better about using it.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will ditch the sand as you suggest.

 

[Sashaka]

I suggest removing all rock and substrate before starting your 30 day timer. Any dip below therapeutic levels will allow the hosts to be reinfected and continue the life cycle.

Good idea. Will do. I know the sand and rocks will harbor the parasites, so I won't start counting down until everything is out of the tank. I just wanted to get started to save the fish that were showing visible signs of illness and could not wait until I got the tank ready.

you'll want to run it with a polyfilter and GAC to remove the traces of copper.

I have Seachem Cuprisorb and carbon already on hand to remove the copper from the rocks. I figured I'd run the tank at a very low PH to leach the copper out as much as possible before I start recycling the rock.

could you post a picture of the fish with the white spots? Other than flashing against the rocks and substrate and heavy breathing, any other side effects

I've tried to take pictures for everyone here to help id this illness before, but my camera just can't get a clear enough picture to be of use. I will go online and see if I can't find a picture that looks similar to what I saw ...though I don't see the spots anymore. Most of the fish have been itching for several weeks with no visible signs of illness. They went though 2 treatments of PraziPro and 10 days of antibiotics in the food. Many of them went through a round of Copper Power before going into the tank too. BTW, the fish are STILL itching even in the CopperPower. Sigh.

get some additional powerheads pointing at the surface

Already done. :) Humblefish had me do this last time, so I just went ahead and added one when I started the Copper Power.

I do have some artificial decorations in the tank besides live rock. Will I be able to reuse them do you think?

Thanks for you help!

 

[ihavecrabs]

Good idea. Will do. I know the sand and rocks will harbor the parasites, so I won't start counting down until everything is out of the tank. I just wanted to get started to save the fish that were showing visible signs of illness and could not wait until I got the tank ready.



I have Seachem Cuprisorb and carbon already on hand to remove the copper from the rocks. I figured I'd run the tank at a very low PH to leach the copper out as much as possible before I start recycling the rock.



I've tried to take pictures for everyone here to help id this illness before, but my camera just can't get a clear enough picture to be of use. I will go online and see if I can't find a picture that looks similar to what I saw ...though I don't see the spots anymore. Most of the fish have been itching for several weeks with no visible signs of illness. They went though 2 treatments of PraziPro and 10 days of antibiotics in the food. Many of them went through a round of Copper Power before going into the tank too. BTW, the fish are STILL itching even in the CopperPower. Sigh.



Already done. :) Humblefish had me do this last time, so I just went ahead and added one when I started the Copper Power.

I do have some artificial decorations in the tank besides live rock. Will I be able to reuse them do you think?

Thanks for you help!

@Humblefish is the best..

If it has been weeks, my guess is ich so I recommend looking at pictures starting there.

Carbon Is not the most effective way to remove copper. I don't have experience with curpisorb though.

Good luck getting everything in order!

 

[Sashaka]

I'm still exploring all the different resources at Reef2Reef. What is #reefsquad ?
Thanks

 

[Diesel]

#reefsquad is a elite group of ppl with lots of knowledge to help you out as best as they can.

 

[Sashaka]

Thanks, diesel. :)

 

[Crabs McJones]

@Humblefish @Big G

 

[Sashaka]

@Humblefish @Big G

I have gratefully accepted advice from both of these saltwater gurus here and would do so again in a heartbeat! Many thanks Humblefish and BigG for the support you provide to everyone here!