Triton Additives Concentration Values (mg/litre)

Discussion in 'Triton Applied Reef Bioscience' started by jzw, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Jonty

    Jonty Active Member R2R Supporter

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    This is a great threat let's keep it going and get potassium and others added, I know why retailers love the Triton product as it is a very high-profit line for them it is the most expensive method to run a tank. Utilizing other supplements is a great way to bend the price especially when you use some of Randys supplement mixes.
     

  2. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    Purity is of the upmost concern with additives like Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. These are added regularly, sometimes even daily, so any impurity could potentially build up over time. One should have some method of export for such chemical impurities. I use carbon, a polyfilter, microalgae, and Cuprisorb whenever my Triton results signal a heavy-metal problem.

    But I am less concerned with purity for lower concentration additives. I regularly add iron to my tank. I use an agricultural grade Iron II sulfate. This is only 95% pure, and the Spec Sheet from Alpha Chemicals lists the analysis of impurities. But in a given dose, I add only about 20 micrograms of iron. So if the Cadmium impurity is at the maximum of 50 ppm, this only results in about 5 nanograms of Cadmium added to my entire 180 gal tank. There is no way to detect these low levels, and they are far below natural seawater concentrations of Cadmium. I have not seen any ill effects from such additives.
     
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  3. chipmunkofdoom2

    chipmunkofdoom2 Always Making Something R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor

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    +1. If you're only adding a few hundred mL of an additive, impurities would have to be very high to make a significant difference. If you're only adding a few mL of an additive, impurities would likely have to be astronomically high to cause long term problems.

    Not saying purity isn't important, but we have to keep orders of magnitude in mind when we're discussing such things. Good post, @ReefTeacher
     
  4. Jonty

    Jonty Active Member R2R Supporter

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    I am hoping I can get some help making a solution for Potassium to replicate the Triton concentration.
    My tank volume is 1700L test result showed 355mg/l to achieve 400mg/l the recommended dosage is 983 ml so by my calculation the concentration of the Triton supplement is 78g/L.
    I have Brightwell Potassion-P powered and in the instructions it states 1g raises 1 gallon by 129ppm I would like to understand how much powder to add to 1L to achieve the triton supplement 78g/L K concentration.
     
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  5. chipmunkofdoom2

    chipmunkofdoom2 Always Making Something R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor

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    I got the same, around 78,200 mg/L. Because mg/L and ppm are roughly equivalent you'd need 605 grams of the Brightwell powder to make a gallon of potassium solution at 78 g/L:

    1 g/gal = 0.129 g/L concentration
    78 g/L desired concentration / 0.129 g/L per gram = about 605g of powder
     
  6. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    Your calculation for the Triton supplement is in agreement with mine.

    For the Brightwell powder, my figures show that it is 49% Potassium. So to obtain the desired solution add 159 g to a liter of water. For more precision add enough water to the powder to make a solution equal to 1 kg. This will give you a solution that has 78 g/kg of Potassium, which is VERY close to 78 g/L.
     
  7. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    chipmunkofdoom2, I think you and I have different numbers. I got 1g/3.8 L = 263 mg/ l Since this raises the concentration by .129 g/L the ratio is 49% Potassium. Since we want 78 g/L of Potassium we must use 78 g/0.49 = 159 g of the Brightwell product.

    Did I make a mistake?
     
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  8. Jonty

    Jonty Active Member R2R Supporter

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    I get the same 159g as well, if this is correct it would only cost $5 to mix up a liter of Potassium solution rather than the $32 Triton costs. That is quite a savings. I have the Brightwell strontium powder as well I will pull the container out so we can see what it cost to mix that up relative to Triton as well.
     
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  9. chipmunkofdoom2

    chipmunkofdoom2 Always Making Something R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor

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    I think they're both right. I think you're listing the end result in grams per liter. I didn't want to do any conversion from liters to gallons so I listed my results in grams per gallon. Brightwell gives us all the info we need, 1 gram in one gallon raises the potassium by 129 mg/L (ppm and mg/L are roughly equivalent). That means if we want a solution that's 78,000 mg/L, we just need to divide by 129 mg/L per gram. The result is 604.5 grams. If you divide 605 by 3.8 (3.8 liters per gallon), you get 159 grams. But the 605g per gallon is easy enough to check:

    1 gram in 1 gallon = 129 ppm (or mg/L)
    (1 * 605) gram in 1 gallon = (129 * 605) ppm (or mg/L)
    OR
    605 grams in 1 gallon = 78,045 ppm (or mg/L)

    So yes, if you're making a liter of solution, you want to use 159g of powder.

    EDIT: Not sure if this is a problem in your math or not, but I think the units are what's causing confusion here (liters vs gallons). 1 gram of the powder doesn't raise a liter of water by 129 mg/L, it raises 1 gallon (3.8L) by 129 mg/L. If you placed 1 gram of this powder in one liter, the increase would be nearly 495 ppm. So that's right about what you calculated, 495 mg/l is about 49.5% by weight. Since one liter is only about a fourth of the size of a gallon (1 gallon /3.8 L/gal = 0.26), the increase would be almost 4 times as much if you dosed the same amount of powder (129 ppm / 0.26 = 496 ppm).

    So I think our numbers all match. Your answer was expressed in how many grams to make a liter of solution, mine was expressed as how many grams to make a gallon of solution.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  10. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    chipmunkofdoom2,

    You are exactly right! Sorry for the confusion, I did not realize you were using gallons. The calculations are the same.
     
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  11. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    It would be even cheaper still to buy a pound of Potassium chloride. this is 52% Potassium so we would need only 150 g/L to make up the required solution. Alphachemicals has this for less that $3/lb. I believe it is agricultural grade.
     
  12. Jonty

    Jonty Active Member R2R Supporter

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    I dug out the strontium powder and it states 1g of powder increases one gallon of water by 143 ppm.I am traveling for the rest of today so if someone could do the calculation it would be great.
     
  13. jzw

    jzw Active Member

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    hey @ReefTeacher, re this strontium calc, you mean 8,000 mg/l, correct?
     
  14. jzw

    jzw Active Member

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    let's periodically summarise our findngs. here's what we've calculated so far. of course feel free to update, correct, or add other alternatives.

    nb: for the sake of all us non-mad scientists, i prefer alternatives to be obtainable in liquid form, lol!


    triton iodine, 5 mg/l
    (seachem 'reef iodine' 8 mg/l)

    triton strontium, 8,000 mg/l
    (seachem strontium, 10,000 mg/l)

    triton boron, 26,000 mg/l
    (brightwell boron (called borochrom), 5,671.52 mg/l)

    triton potassium, 78,200 mg/l
    (brightwell Potassion-P (powder form!), ____?____ )
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  15. Gp!

    Gp! Member

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    It's probably poor form to reverse engineer the Triton formulas... especially so in their subforum.

    Just my thoughts, but they are a business and you're posting how to duplicate products they spent time and money to create without any financial benefit to them. Seems wrong at best
     
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  16. jzw

    jzw Active Member

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    sorry @Gp!, but sometimes triton stuff is not in stock. like when i tired to buy triton manganese. and look at all the posts pleading where to buy core7.

    if a business wishes to last, it must offer products and services that are competitive in quality and price. this thread is not meant to steer business away from triton, it is meant to educate so reefers can compare, and choose their options. we did find that triton's boron additive is very, very competitive, when compared against brightwell.

    we're all consumers, spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars... over the lives of our tanks. we have a right to know what we're buying. triton has the option to publish a content/concentration list. i appreciate companies that disclose info useful to its customers. those that haven't, well, it results in time-wasting, reverse-engineering research threads like this. i agree this thread may be in-your-face unslightly, and in fact some participants have already been driven underground. i encourage us to discuss this publicly, without shame, because...

    it's not reasonable to buy a car without knowing its size or mileage. or buy a house without knowing the # of rooms or square footage. customers compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. if a supermarket priced apples as $1.00 per mystery weight, who'd shop there?

    the triton method is undoubtedly a great approach, that's why we're all here. way to go, triton!

    on the contrary, i can't think of a better place for this convo to occur, as we are actually bumping triton to provide the best (segment-leading) customer-facing information available, and competitive pricing to boot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  17. jzw

    jzw Active Member

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    dang the headwinds, i'm doing manganese.

    as i mentioned, triton manganese was not available when i was ordering my triton branded elements. so i bought ati's supplement instead.

    ati's supplement concentration values are listed for each supplement on ati's uk distibutor's website, at https://atiaquaristik.co.uk/product-category/supplements/


    so i'll try to perform the manganese concentration calcs, comparing the triton and ati products.

    ______________________

    my triton report says...

    i need a total of 48.24 m of triton manganese supplement


    to supply my entire tank (2411.31 ) with a correction of +2 µg/


    _____________________

    so i am to correct 2 µg/ x 2411.31 (total system volume) = by adding 4,822.62µg of Mn


    this is the amount contained in 48.24m of the triton reagent, so its concentration is 4,822.62 mg / 48.24 ml = 0.099713 µg/ml (rounded up to 0.1 µg/mℓ)


    now, to correct my repeated metric conversion mistake:

    0.1 µg/m x [1000m/1] = 100 µg/


    therefore, triton manganese has a concentration of 100 µg/


    ______________________


    regarding ati's manganese supplement, according to (https://atiaquaristik.co.uk/shop/manganese-100ml/), ati's product has a concentration of:


    "1 ml of the supplement increases the manganese concentration of 100 litres to 2 µg/l"

    as for the conversion, 1 m contains: 100 x 2 µg/ = 200 µg

    therefore, ati manganese has a concentration of 200 µg x [ 1000 m
    / 1 ] = 200,000 µg/

    __________________________

    so my preliminary value scorecard is:

    triton manganese (US$32 for 100mℓ)
    100 µg/

    ati manganese (US$15 for 100mℓ)

    200,000 µg/

    please don't take this as fact, until someone checks my typically awful math. @ReefTeacher? these prelim results are troubling.


     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  18. Charterreefer

    Charterreefer Active Member

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    I don't mind paying $50.00 for a Triton water test. It provides us all awesome info and has raised this hobby to the next level however, the price they charge for basic simple chemicals is a complete and total rip off! It is a good example of where this hobby has gone with WAY over inflated prices, from supplies to livestock!...apparently it is what this market will bear!! Don't look now but we ARE the market. I love this thread. Cheers! Apparently many wealthy and/or dumb people have been entering this hobby lately driving prices up. This thread is aiding and providing useful information and is giving some relief to an increasingly overpriced hobby. A big Thank You for your insight, chemistry expertise and efforts to all contributors!!!
    PS: What part of this huge thread has iodine and zinc formula? :).
     
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  19. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    Gp, this is a good point and I don't think any of us meant to do harm to the Triton Co.

    But we really did not reverse engineer anything. I never took their solutions into the lab to titrate and find out what the concentration was. We are only using the information that Triton makes publically available. Last year at MACNA Triton's founder, Ehsan Dashti, gave an excellent talk. It is available on the BRS WebSite. It in he mentions that the Triton test is designed to give the hobbyist power. We know what is in our tanks, and what is missing and we make adjustments based on that knowledge. It was that talk that convinced me that water-changes are overrated and I have reduced them with excellent results since last fall. I highly recommend everyone interested watch that video.

    So I do not think we are bound to buy Triton products outside of the test kits. I think Triton offers them for convenience. I do not use Core7, but I understand some find it convenient. I make most of my own supplements, but I have found Vanadium expensive and difficult to source, so I use Triton's V supplement. I look at it like this: I like to cook at home because it is fun and I get to play as a chemist in the kitchen. Some people prefer to go out to dinner, not have the odors and avoid all of the clean-up. Of course, you pay for that convenience, but all decisions are not about money. There will always be some who find measuring mg of reagents and calculating dosages too difficult, so they will go with the prefab solutions. There will be those, like me, who like to play in the lab, and have a degree in chemistry. It is a fun part of the hobby to figure out what concentration of various elements makes my corals grow better and show better color. I never meant to take business away from Triton, and I apologize if anyone from the company finds that this thread does so. At the same time, Ehsan Dashti did claim to give the power to the hobbyist in his talk.
     
  20. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Member

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    I think you made a division error: 4822.62 microgram/48.24 ml = 100 microgram/mL which is the same as 100 mg/L
     
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