Using ground probes in aquariums

Paul B · Feb 4, 2023

These ground probe, circuit breaker and GFI threads all end up the same why which is why I prefer to not give advice (to often) on them.

BeanAnimal · Feb 4, 2023

Paul B said:
LOL, I actually am an expert on this as I was a master electrician in Manhattan for 50 years and the company that invented GFCIs sent me to school for them. But for me, I just added 2 electric eels to my tank and that confuses the circuit breaker into thinking it is a GFCI which caused the thing to trip any time I go near the tank or walk by it in my Speedo.

The phenomenon known as Ionic attraction, or was that repulsion?

I knew that gif would come out sooner or later.

BeanAnimal · Feb 4, 2023

I just ran into another Paul_B on different forum about another subject. Unfortunately, after a little DM run in, I was not impressed with the clone and (no lie) told him to go *******

There can be only one.

Paul B · Feb 4, 2023

I heard about that person. I don't know him but I was here first.

Steve Zee · Feb 4, 2023

As another expert or “electrical guru” (35+ years in electrical field and 15 specializing in sophisticated GFCI’s collaborating with Bender Inc.), I completely agree with BeanAnimal’s assessment of the amount of bad (dangerous) information in this thread. He also gave great information that should be considered when determining what’s best for you.

To go a step further regarding safety of using a grounding probe at all -even with a GFCI. This debate comes up often in side panel discussions at NFPA and standard agreement panels discussing confined areas. Most of us believe the grounding probe in a small reachable space is much more dangerous to someone than not having one at all. So to this, I would like someone to show me data on “stray electricity” (God, I hate this term) and the damage to fish because in my opinion, having a grounding probe (even with a GFCI) is not safer for humans.

Steve Zee · Feb 4, 2023

Lasse said:
I do not know how the US form of GFCI works but here in Sweden it trips regardless of which path the current takes to the ground because the ground is the same for both the ground probe and your feet or grounded wall sockets. Here they also trips if a child come in contact with the phase of a wall socket even if the socket is not grounded. Swedish GFCI for personal protection trips at 30 mA

Yes, the Swedish 30mA trip setting is a luxury we don't have. In North America (UL943A) personnel protection is set to <6mA or at the "let go" threshold. It's a tough standard that causes a lot of nuisance tripping and hence the debate on when you can get by without them.

gbroadbridge · Feb 4, 2023

Steve Zee said:
Yes, the Swedish 30mA trip setting is a luxury we don't have. In North America (UL943A) personnel protection is set to <6mA or at the "let go" threshold. It's a tough standard that causes a lot of nuisance tripping and hence the debate on when you can get by without them.

Is the 6mA for domestic/residential or for only high risk medical/commercial?

Idech · Feb 4, 2023

Steve Zee said:
As another expert or “electrical guru” (35+ years in electrical field and 15 specializing in sophisticated GFCI’s collaborating with Bender Inc.), I completely agree with BeanAnimal’s assessment of the amount of bad (dangerous) information in this thread. He also gave great information that should be considered when determining what’s best for you.

To go a step further regarding safety of using a grounding probe at all -even with a GFCI. This debate comes up often in side panel discussions at NFPA and standard agreement panels discussing confined areas. Most of us believe the grounding probe in a small reachable space is much more dangerous to someone than not having one at all. So to this, I would like someone to show me data on “stray electricity” (God, I hate this term) and the damage to fish because in my opinion, having a grounding probe (even with a GFCI) is not safer for humans.

I’m sorry if I make you repeat (reading 32 pages would take hours), but can you explain in very simple terms why is having a GFCi outlet and a probe dangerous to humans ?

Thank you

BeanAnimal · Feb 4, 2023

Idech said:
I’m sorry if I make you repeat (reading 32 pages would take hours), but can you explain in very simple terms why is having a GFCi outlet and a probe dangerous to humans ?

Thank you

The probe without GFCI on everything that is on, in or near the aquarium... creates a possible/likely fault path that would not otherwise exist. That fault path is THROUGH your body.

For the most part, GFCI protection mitigates this fault path created by a ground probe. I think we can leave it there from a HUMAN safety standpoint without getting into the weeds of edge/outside cases.

As mentioned above, the real debate then comes down to what/if there is benefit (ignoring HUMAN safety) to the animals as it relates to current flow (be it induced or leaked) and drained by the probe. That is not a debate that I wish to partake in.

Lasse · Feb 4, 2023

BeanAnimal said:
the real debate then comes down to what/if there is benefit (ignoring HUMAN safety) to the animals as it relates to current flow (be it induced or leaked) and drained by the probe. That is not a debate that I wish to partake in.

In fresh water - a grounded probe is out of questions. If you get fields in freshwater - the current will go through the body of the fish because the conductivity is higher than the surrounding water - electrofishing. In saltwater - the water have much higher conductivity than the body - the current gooses outside the body - no harm to the fish.

Sincerely Lasse

Steve Zee · Feb 4, 2023

gbroadbridge said:
Is the 6mA for domestic/residential or for only high risk medical/commercial?

This is for residential and general public per the NEC. And there are very few exceptions. Marinas, Mines and some construction industrial considerations. Hospitals are < 6mA with the exception of operating rooms where it is mostly isolated power transformers that use line isolation monitors.

BeanAnimal · Feb 4, 2023

Lasse said:
In fresh water - a grounded probe is out of questions. If you get fields in freshwater - the current will go through the body of the fish because the conductivity is higher than the surrounding water - electrofishing. In saltwater - the water have much higher conductivity than the body - the current gooses outside the body - no harm to the fish.

Sincerely Lasse

At least that is the theory that I have read- I am not sure my scopas tank would appreciate a current probe shoved up his rear for proof of theory!

Steve Zee · Feb 4, 2023

Idech said:
I’m sorry if I make you repeat (reading 32 pages would take hours), but can you explain in very simple terms why is having a GFCi outlet and a probe dangerous to humans ?

Thank you

I think BeanAnimal covered the question perfectly. A simplified way to look at it is the "the bird on a wire" scenario. Very hard for the bird to ground itself when so far away. When a grounded source (opportunity to ground) is placed in near proximity then it becomes more dangerous for you. The good news is that a GFCI will protect you if you have a grounding probe. That's why it's especially imperative to have a GFCI with a grounding probe.

wil-yuhm · Feb 4, 2023

Voltage saves lives.
Do it right!

Steve Zee · Feb 4, 2023

wil-yuhm said:
Voltage saves lives.
Do it right!

Don’t know why we are torturing a goldfish. But it does remind me while filming “The Abyss”, we filmed a scene of a rat dunked and held in a breathable fluid to prove a story point about this fluid that humans could breathe allowing diving without compression/equalizing concerns. I remember thinking, I guess we are just going to kill a couple rats. Not like I hadn’t seen animals killed before on set… These were days before PITA. Anyway, it turns out the stuff was real! I seriously watch these rats (I think 5 takes so 5 different rats?) breathe this stuff from about 5 feet away! It was fascinating watching them breathe in and out. All of them were fine… Crazy to see!

- Ugh! Sorry for the ramble. This clearly has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

gbroadbridge · Feb 4, 2023

Steve Zee said:
This is for residential and general public per the NEC. And there are very few exceptions. Marinas, Mines and some construction industrial considerations. Hospitals are < 6mA with the exception of operating rooms where it is mostly isolated power transformers that use line isolation monitors.

That would be a PITA, esp given the lower domestic line voltage in general use compared to here.

wil-yuhm · Feb 4, 2023

Steve Zee said:
Don’t know why we are torturing a goldfish. But it does remind me while filming “The Abyss”, we filmed a scene of a rat dunked and held in a breathable fluid to prove a story point about this fluid that humans could breathe allowing diving without compression/equalizing concerns. I remember thinking, I guess we are just going to kill a couple rats. Not like I hadn’t seen animals killed before on set… These were days before PITA. Anyway, it turns out the stuff was real! I seriously watch these rats (I think 5 takes so 5 different rats?) breathe this stuff from about 5 feet away! It was fascinating watching them breathe in and out. All of them were fine… Crazy to see!

- Ugh! Sorry for the ramble. This clearly has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Right! By no means was I attempting to encourage such inhumane behavior.
Synthetic Pressurized Amniotic fluid was experimental at one point encapsulating theoretical Pilots dealing w/ high/sustained G-forces.
Eventually technology surpassed theoretical environments (sustaining human Pilots) by removing human equations.
A Military General long ago (twenty or so yrs) said when ethics were questioned about land/water/air drones, 'a human shall be present at one end of this technology.' Personally, I believe he made a giant assumption.
No need to be sorry for your rant Steve!
I apologize for derailing. My intent was laughter/humor.
Enjoy

BeanAnimal · Feb 4, 2023

wil-yuhm said:
Voltage saves lives.
Do it right!

I wonder how that idiot would feel if he was water boarded to circulatory failure and then revived with a bare lamp cord... good grief what is wrong with people.