Velvet or Ich and how to treat?

thedraque

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We have a Pinktail Trigger and a Porupine Puffer that we dont know if this is Ich or Velvet, the trigger was treated with two rally baths and FW dips as well as 30+ days in CopperSafe and still has white spots.

We just moved them last night to a new and sterile QT tank with no medications. Is this ich or velvet and how should we treat it?

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Jay Hemdal

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We have a Pinktail Trigger and a Porupine Puffer that we dont know if this is Ich or Velvet, the trigger was treated with two rally baths and FW dips as well as 30+ days in CopperSafe and still has white spots.

We just moved them last night to a new and sterile QT tank with no medications. Is this ich or velvet and how should we treat it?

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The best way to tell a velvet infection from ich is the fish's breathing rate. If the fish are gasping, not eating and hanging out in water currents, it is either velvet or late stage ich. If the fish aren't breathing fast and are still eating, it is ich.

Either way, copper would be the way to go. Coppersafe is very mild, but if you don't keep it at right at a full dose, the ich parasite can persist. A full dose of coppersafe will read 2.40 ppm on a Hanna HR tester. The API kit may not work well enough for you to measure an accurate dose.

If you determine that it is ich, not velvet, you could also consider a low salinity bath - a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days. that won't work for velvet though.

Jay
 
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thedraque

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The best way to tell a velvet infection from ich is the fish's breathing rate. If the fish are gasping, not eating and hanging out in water currents, it is either velvet or late stage ich. If the fish aren't breathing fast and are still eating, it is ich.

Either way, copper would be the way to go. Coppersafe is very mild, but if you don't keep it at right at a full dose, the ich parasite can persist. A full dose of coppersafe will read 2.40 ppm on a Hanna HR tester. The API kit may not work well enough for you to measure an accurate dose.

If you determine that it is ich, not velvet, you could also consider a low salinity bath - a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days. that won't work for velvet though.

Jay
They are both eating, respiration seems normal if slightly stressed, dont notice them swimming in the powerhead or anything. Is 2.4 ppm of coppersafe "safe" for porcupine puffers?
 

Jay Hemdal

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They are both eating, respiration seems normal if slightly stressed, dont notice them swimming in the powerhead or anything. Is 2.4 ppm of coppersafe "safe" for porcupine puffers?
Yes - porcupines have no trouble with that. I have a one-eyed porcupine that I can't use for exhibit and it lives in one of our quarantine systems and it gets coppersafe'd with every new batch of fish - doesn't bat an eye (pardon the pun).

Jay
 
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thedraque

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Yes - porcupines have no trouble with that. I have a one-eyed porcupine that I can't use for exhibit and it lives in one of our quarantine systems and it gets coppersafe'd with every new batch of fish - doesn't bat an eye (pardon the pun).

Jay
Okay thanks, how long would you recommend CopperSafe for? 30 days?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Okay thanks, how long would you recommend CopperSafe for? 30 days?
That's how I dose it. You just need to be aware that coppersafe won't resolve fluke issues, so watch for symptoms of that - scraping, flashing, cloudy eyes, etc.

Jay
 
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thedraque

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The best way to tell a velvet infection from ich is the fish's breathing rate. If the fish are gasping, not eating and hanging out in water currents, it is either velvet or late stage ich. If the fish aren't breathing fast and are still eating, it is ich.

Either way, copper would be the way to go. Coppersafe is very mild, but if you don't keep it at right at a full dose, the ich parasite can persist. A full dose of coppersafe will read 2.40 ppm on a Hanna HR tester. The API kit may not work well enough for you to measure an accurate dose.

If you determine that it is ich, not velvet, you could also consider a low salinity bath - a specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 days. that won't work for velvet though.

Jay
turns out it was Velvet, two days after you posted this checked them in the morning and they both looked like they had been dipped in powdered sugar and the Porcupine was swimming into the powerhead flow. Immediately did a 5 min FW dip with a 90 minute Rally bath and then back into the QT tank and over 3 days I brought the QT to 2.4 ppm of CopperSafe. did a second dip and Rally bath 5 days later and we did one dose of medicated food with Furan-2. both seem to be improving they both have good appetites. Just hope they arent being over toxified with all the medicating
 

Jay Hemdal

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turns out it was Velvet, two days after you posted this checked them in the morning and they both looked like they had been dipped in powdered sugar and the Porcupine was swimming into the powerhead flow. Immediately did a 5 min FW dip with a 90 minute Rally bath and then back into the QT tank and over 3 days I brought the QT to 2.4 ppm of CopperSafe. did a second dip and Rally bath 5 days later and we did one dose of medicated food with Furan-2. both seem to be improving they both have good appetites. Just hope they arent being over toxified with all the medicating
I’d skip the furan in the food, it is not really possible to get the dose right unless you know the weight of the fish.
Jay
 
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C. Eymann

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If only chloroquine phosphate was more readily available, it always seemed to be the magic bullet for me with amyloodinium, plus it didn't seem to be as harsh or cause appitite suppression as other meds.

Rally baths are not going to help with this at all- reefsafe ich and velvet treatments are garbage/ snake oil
If doing dips/ baths, with oodinium, 45min heavily aerated baths of formalin / quickcure are your best bet.

Godspeed, hope they pull through
 
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thedraque

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Rally baths are not going to help with this at all- reefsafe ich and velvet treatments are garbage/ snake oil
If doing dips/ baths, with oodinium, 45min heavily aerated baths of formalin / quickcure are your best bet.

I thought Rally was Formalin? both fish seemed immedialtey improved after the Rally baths
 

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I thought Rally was Formalin? both fish seemed immedialtey improved after the Rally baths
You are talking about ruby reef Rally correct? Unless they make a different product thats not reef safe ,I don't believe it has formalin, otherwise I can't imagine them touting formalin being reef safe.
They use acriflavine in the product Im familiar with and its effectiveness on amyloodinium
doesn't have a good track record.
 
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thedraque

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You are talking about ruby reef Rally correct? Unless they make a different product thats not reef safe ,I don't believe it has formalin, otherwise I can't imagine them touting formalin being reef safe.
They use acriflavine in the product Im familiar with and its effectiveness on amyloodinium
doesn't have a good track record.
I am not using it in a reef, they are in a bare bottom hospital tank, i remove them from the tank and do a FW dip and place them in a seperate container with Rally for 90 min before back into hospital tank
 

davidcalgary29

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Yes - porcupines have no trouble with that. I have a one-eyed porcupine that I can't use for exhibit and it lives in one of our quarantine systems and it gets coppersafe'd with every new batch of fish - doesn't bat an eye (pardon the pun).

Jay
Okay, I have to ask. Why can't you use it for exhibit?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Okay, I have to ask. Why can't you use it for exhibit?
People will wonder what's wrong with it, "why do we have a defective fish on exhibit?" Then other people will make comments like, "you'd think they wouldn't have sick fish in their tanks", stuff like that. People typically don't read the signage, so we can't even explain things in graphics.

Jay
 

davidcalgary29

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People will wonder what's wrong with it, "why do we have a defective fish on exhibit?" Then other people will make comments like, "you'd think they wouldn't have sick fish in their tanks", stuff like that. People typically don't read the signage, so we can't even explain things in graphics.

Jay
Wow. I would've thought that "blinky" would become a popular mascot with kids, who would embrace the idea of a one-eyed fish and clamor to see the exhibit.
 

Firstreef20

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turns out it was Velvet, two days after you posted this checked them in the morning and they both looked like they had been dipped in powdered sugar and the Porcupine was swimming into the powerhead flow. Immediately did a 5 min FW dip with a 90 minute Rally bath and then back into the QT tank and over 3 days I brought the QT to 2.4 ppm of CopperSafe. did a second dip and Rally bath 5 days later and we did one dose of medicated food with Furan-2. both seem to be improving they both have good appetites. Just hope they arent being over toxified with all the medicating
how do yo do the rally reef bath? can you explain this a little more i am currently dealing with a case of velvet and i have read humble.fish articles that say do a 90 min rally bath but how exactly does this work??
 

Firstreef20

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turns out it was Velvet, two days after you posted this checked them in the morning and they both looked like they had been dipped in powdered sugar and the Porcupine was swimming into the powerhead flow. Immediately did a 5 min FW dip with a 90 minute Rally bath and then back into the QT tank and over 3 days I brought the QT to 2.4 ppm of CopperSafe. did a second dip and Rally bath 5 days later and we did one dose of medicated food with Furan-2. both seem to be improving they both have good appetites. Just hope they arent being over toxified with all the medicating
how do yo do the rally reef bath? can you explain this a little more i am currently dealing with a case of velvet and i have read humble.fish articles that say do a 90 min rally bath but how exactly does this work??
 

Jay Hemdal

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how do yo do the rally reef bath? can you explain this a little more i am currently dealing with a case of velvet and i have read humble.fish articles that say do a 90 min rally bath but how exactly does this work??
A rally dip alone won't cure velvet (Amyloodinium). It is used to just get a jump start on the disease progression. You need to eliminate the dinospores from the tank itself, else the fish will continue to get reinfected when you return them to the tank. If you have fish and invertebrates mixed, there isn't a good solution other than moving the fish out, treating them there, and then letting your invertebrates live in a fishless tank (no disease host) for a period of time so the diseases die out. A FW dip, moving to a clean quarantine tank and then dosing with copper is the best course of action. If you truly have velvet, you need to act very quickly, as this disease kills rapidly. Velvet is fairly rare, and many people confuse it with late stage marine ich though.


Jay
 
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