Watch me kill SPS...

[drawman]

These situations can be incredibly frustrating. I think you almost need to make a list of possible problems then double, triple check them.

In terms of what hasn't been mentioned. Next time you get coral from a good looking tank test the salinity of the water that comes with it. Even though I doubt the issue is a bad batch of calibration fluid, it would be nice to check that off of the list of possibilities.

I think as others have stated an ICP test would be nice to rule out other possible problems and certainly bacterial biodiversity could be a problem. You're feeding regularly but I know some tanks for whatever reason have a problem with lower PO4.

 

[Skep18]

These situations can be incredibly frustrating. I think you almost need to make a list of possible problems then double, triple check them.

In terms of what hasn't been mentioned. Next time you get coral from a good looking tank test the salinity of the water that comes with it. Even though I doubt the issue is a bad batch of calibration fluid, it would be nice to check that off of the list of possibilities.

I think as others have stated an ICP test would be nice to rule out other possible problems and certainly bacterial biodiversity could be a problem. You're feeding regularly but I know some tanks for whatever reason have a problem with lower PO4.

Frustrating is an understatement. lol.

I used to match salinity in the past in my QT tank when I could QT some frags. But it might verify my refractometer and digital salinity checker. I might just get another batch of calibration fluid just cuz. But I do check calibration every time and my typical mixing protocol seems to produce the expected salinity results.

I may send out for a second ICP analysis. I've done one before but I guess they could be wrong or it could change? I'll go with another company I suppose to verify.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

sorry a little off topic. I am getting back into reefing since 2015. How things have changed. Back then it was all about removing phosphates. Using GFO, bio pellet reactor, ATS, vinegar, vodka and even using chemicals PO4 remover from pool supply companies. Now we are at the process of adding phosphates? has philosophies changes or the filters now are that much more effective?

 

[Skep18]

sorry a little off topic. I am getting back into reefing since 2015. How things have changed. Back then it was all about removing phosphates. Using GFO, bio pellet reactor, ATS, vinegar, vodka and even using chemicals PO4 remover from pool supply companies. Now we are at the process of adding phosphates? has philosophies changes or the filters now are that much more effective?

Lol, your guess is as good as mine. As you said, I struggle because for every person on one side of the argument, there's an equal number on the other side. Its near impossible to determine who to listen to as they both state having success.

I can say, I've tried both and killed coral doing both. I don't think I've ever had PO4 above 0.10ppm but I've had steady detectable levels before... I'm afraid I would not be the person to give advice, lol.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I would also agree that four hours at full light is not much. I am no led expert so I will let others handle that. I would think it would take about a month for corals to start dying if they aren’t getting the proper light. What light do you have on your qt tank? Are the parameters different at all? Numbers shouldn’t matter much but just curious.
I wouldn’t rush to increase nutrients until you check everything else off. As long as it’s readable and your feeding you should be just fine. I am sure others will disagree. If you add some po4 and it goes up to .08 and stays there I would say it’s not your issue but if your having trouble keeping any readable numbers then it could be a problem in some tanks.
If your water is bad you would see the same flesh issues your seeing in both tanks. It wouldn’t hurt to try adding some bacteria. It might not help but it won’t hurt anything that’s for sure. Seems when people have these random weird issues sometimes things balance out when a good bacteria is introduced for a while. Problem is it’s hard to tell if it is the bacteria or time that is what kickstarts a tank back into growth mode.

 

[Skep18]

I would also agree that four hours at full light is not much. I am no led expert so I will let others handle that. I would think it would take about a month for corals to start dying if they aren’t getting the proper light. What light do you have on your qt tank? Are the parameters different at all? Numbers shouldn’t matter much but just curious.
I wouldn’t rush to increase nutrients until you check everything else off. As long as it’s readable and your feeding you should be just fine. I am sure others will disagree. If you add some po4 and it goes up to .08 and stays there I would say it’s not your issue but if your having trouble keeping any readable numbers then it could be a problem in some tanks.
If your water is bad you would see the same flesh issues your seeing in both tanks. It wouldn’t hurt to try adding some bacteria. It might not help but it won’t hurt anything that’s for sure. Seems when people have these random weird issues sometimes things balance out when a good bacteria is introduced for a while. Problem is it’s hard to tell if it is the bacteria or time that is what kickstarts a tank back into growth mode.

My photoperiod is 14hrs.

The QT has a Reef Breeders "black box" light. Set to the same ratio and same PAR levels.

I have dosed more "bacteria in a bottle" before to try this out. With no ammonia or nitrite levels, I'm not sure what it would help though. I also don't understand at what number of different bacteria strains SPS become happy. I'm being a little silly here but I without a target or end result in mind, how does one know what they're feedback loop is to work towards? Also, as mentioned before, for all the claims of biodiversity, there are people with frag tanks with fresh setups that can grow stuff pretty well.

Again, I do appreciate the feedback and I will continue to keep it in mind. When my ocean rock cures, it will go into the DT.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I am with you on the diversity part, I don’t think it matters. I always keep my photoperiod at peak for at least 5 hours. Normally 6-8 between summer and winter. The strongest light period is what matters more than any of the periods where your ramping up or down. But again leds are a whole different story although I would think most people have their strongest light on for at least 5 hours with led too.

 

[TexasTodd]

How often do you need to clean your glass?

One of the ICP places gives you two vials...one for tank, one for your RO/DI water. I can't remember which one but someone here will know. I would definitely do the ICP and do your own testing the day you do so you can compare results.

What is the max intensity you are running your Reefbreeders at for each channel? (Especially whites)

How many hours a day is it above 200 PAR where the sps frags are sitting?

I don't think that small of a salinity swing will kill. I generally keep in the 1.026 range but have been quite a bit lower or higher without death...like 1.023-1.030.

 

[Skep18]

How often do you need to clean your glass?

One of the ICP places gives you two vials...one for tank, one for your RO/DI water. I can't remember which one but someone here will know. I would definitely do the ICP and do your own testing the day you do so you can compare results.

What is the max intensity you are running your Reefbreeders at for each channel? (Especially whites)

How many hours a day is it above 200 PAR where the sps frags are sitting?

I don't think that small of a salinity swing will kill. I generally keep in the 1.026 range but have been quite a bit lower or higher without death...like 1.023-1.030.

I clean my glass every few days.

I just rechecked my light schedule. I run mixed whites/blues for 7hr a day, not 4. Its been a long time since I messed with them as everyone says corals will adjust and leave things alone. I was mistaken about the schedule. My levels are 95% blues and 50% whites. My lights are probably close to 16 inches above the tank. Before this, I have tried all different settings for a month at a time. Its hard to correlate any difference between them in my observation in regards to their direct effect on coral health. As posted before, the resultant PAR from this has been measured to be within the guidelines generally presented on these forums and WWC/BRS/etc., at least for those who believe in LED's. This is supplemented by 2/ea T5 lights as posted in OP.

I had the same suspicion about the salinity. It didn't seem like a big amount off, not enough to kill coral.

 

[blasterman]

First, it ain't your lights. Second, it's not your water params.

I can't see it clearly but in the video it looks like your rocks are covered with a thin layer of brown sludge. Dinos? If so, and if the outbreak is that bad there's your culprit.

Next, when I see large paly colonies stressed that bad you gonna have problems. When palys start to pale and receed like that they release toxins that play havoc with hard corals. The large paly colony in the lower middle of the tank has me very concerned and I would be inclined to pull an isolate that whole rock, do a water change and/or run activated carbon and see if the condition improves. Again, I can't tell from the video, but if they are those dull, olive green variety that are wild colonies that reef stores sell I would toss the rock entirely. They are toxic when combined with SPS. Had these wipe out SPS tanks before. If you can take a pic with normal white lights I can verify if they are the bad ones.

 

[Skep18]

First, it ain't your lights. Second, it's not your water params.

I can't see it clearly but in the video it looks like your rocks are covered with a thin layer of brown sludge. Dinos? If so, and if the outbreak is that bad there's your culprit.

Next, when I see large paly colonies stressed that bad you gonna have problems. When palys start to pale and receed like that they release toxins that play havoc with hard corals. The large paly colony in the lower middle of the tank has me very concerned and I would be inclined to pull an isolate that whole rock, do a water change and/or run activated carbon and see if the condition improves. Again, I can't tell from the video, but if they are those dull, olive green variety that are wild colonies that reef stores sell I would toss the rock entirely. They are toxic when combined with SPS. Had these wipe out SPS tanks before. If you can take a pic with normal white lights I can verify if they are the bad ones.

I've had dinos in the past. Outbreak was pretty significant. Vibrant worked for me to get rid of them. I'm unclear if rocks should be pristine, clear of any biological growth besides coralline or of "some"algae is expected. From my past experience with dinos, these are not dinos. My past dinos would come back very quickly after husbandry and was almost dusty. This is just algae fuzz or fluff on the rocks. But if my rocks should be completely free of any algae, then I maybe mistaken and maybe that's my issue.

 

[Skep18]

Perhaps better evidence, the algae I do have takes a real scraping to get the rock cleaned off. I maybe wrong, but dinos seemingly blow away if disturbed. Also, dinos to me always looked like slime trapping bubbles under them. I have "pearling" one some levels of rock but it looks to be uncovered. I figured that was just photosynthesis of algae.

 

[Jenuvio]

Thanks for the response. I have a $170 divers den brown acro in QT now. I bought it for the coralline and the "magic ocean bacteria" (as I cynically call it) in hopes to test just that. Hopefully QT does not kill this biodiversity.

At this point, I'm guessing I'm in the 1% that QT everything that can bring in fish parasites. My reading and discussions seem to show almost no one actually QT's very much. That said, I'm reluctant to throw away 2 years of efforts to maintain a pest-free tank by putting "fresh" live rock into my tank. To your point though, maybe my not doing that is 100% of the issue. I have to hope there is someone in the world who has actually practiced disciplined QT and has had SPS success. I will keep this in mind though but I'll probably throw away another $2,000 on new lights, more frags and other ideas before I compromise there... One thing is for sure though, what I am doing is not working...

I would be quite interested in understanding what bacteria diversity might do to help the system though. I know people speculate and I don't know anyone has a real, experimentally backed answer to this or anything really in this hobby. But it would be interesting to know.

Jason Fox has 2 QT setups because he is a huge believer in QT, with success that don't need explaining. Just FYI.
Hope you find the cure!

 

[Skep18]

Jason Fox has 2 QT setups because he is a huge believer in QT, with success that don't need explaining. Just FYI.
Hope you find the cure!

Thank you. I know some people do. I expect some major places do. I think what I see is some coral vendors that QT, they do it for coral pests. According to the great Humblefish, you need to go fish free on all corals for up to 72 days. I'm not clear if Jason or other vendors do that. Many attest coral need fish to survive (which could be right, Idk).

 

[ap7x]

Since there seems to be a lot of eyes on this thread, hoping those with more experience can offer some insight, but could it be too much flow? Specifically in the acros’ direction.

I’ve read a lot of posts here about flow and while people push for more flow for SPS (and it is objectively true), I feel like it’s a very subjective aspect (maybe most subjective considering all important factors). Aquascrape, coral placement, PH placement and tank dimensions are all so different... and it seems people usually equate “too much flow” to literally having the tissue peel off before your eyes while the coral sits in front of a powerhead but maybe it can be just near “too much” to more slowly affect the corals, esp. a frag compared to a colony?

I mention this since all your big checkpoints (light, parameters, etc) seems on point... And you mention the frag rack gets “smooth steady flow” but how hard are they hit?

I’m currently tweaking my flow because I thought I had an area that was “good indirect flow” but when I put a Voodoo Magik frag there (it’s a hairy acro), I can see just how hard the “hairy” polyps were being whipped around. Then it retracted a good amount (compared to when it was sitting at the bottom from just receiving it). Kind of made me reassess all the PE in the tank and general health (albeit I am in the “frag” stage atm in my tank) vs flow. Reduced flow and got normal PE for that one back... still assessing others with overall reduced flow.

Anyone have experiences with too much flow but not necessarily “directly in front of the PH getting blasted” causing issues with SPS? Frags or colonies...

 

[Jenuvio]

Thank you. I know some people do. I expect some major places do. I think what I see is some coral vendors that QT, they do it for coral pests. According to the great Humblefish, you need to go fish free on all corals for up to 72 days. I'm not clear if Jason or other vendors do that. Many attest coral need fish to survive (which could be right, Idk).

LoL overthinking it... it hurts my brain!

Try some PRODIBIO Bio Digest, mix it up to rule the bacteria diversity aspect out.
Also I saw someone say to place the SPS on the rock. Sounds like a good idea maybe with some higher flow.
Your lighting spread is very even, just try high flow with high placement.

 

[Skep18]

Since there seems to be a lot of eyes on this thread, hoping those with more experience can offer some insight, but could it be too much flow? Specifically in the acros’ direction.

I’ve read a lot of posts here about flow and while people push for more flow for SPS (and it is objectively true), I feel like it’s a very subjective aspect (maybe most subjective considering all important factors). Aquascrape, coral placement, PH placement and tank dimensions are all so different... and it seems people usually equate “too much flow” to literally having the tissue peel off before your eyes while the coral sits in front of a powerhead but maybe it can be just near “too much” to more slowly affect the corals, esp. a frag compared to a colony?

I mention this since all your big checkpoints (light, parameters, etc) seems on point... And you mention the frag rack gets “smooth steady flow” but how hard are they hit?

I’m currently tweaking my flow because I thought I had an area that was “good indirect flow” but when I put a Voodoo Magik frag there (it’s a hairy acro), I can see just how hard the “hairy” polyps were being whipped around. Then it retracted a good amount (compared to when it was sitting at the bottom from just receiving it). Kind of made me reassess all the PE in the tank and general health (albeit I am in the “frag” stage atm in my tank) vs flow.

Anyone have experiences with too much flow but not necessarily “directly in front of the PH getting blasted” causing issues with SPS? Frags or colonies...

A very interesting take. I had noticed in the past my frags did not want to be in direct "line of sight" of a powerhead. I have always tried to push water "near" the coral instead of at them. However, I am all ears. I thought maybe I didn't have enough flow, lol.

The frag rack, the polpys move but they don't whip around super hard. Like you said, kinda hard to communicate but I have seen acro videos where the polyps move a lot more than mine.

Thank you for the thought tho! Certain in to hear any and all suggestions and experience.

 

[Skep18]

LoL overthinking it... it hurts my brain!

Try some PRODIBIO Bio Digest, mix it up to rule the bacteria diversity aspect out.
Also I saw someone say to place the SPS on the rock. Sounds like a good idea maybe with some higher flow.
Your lighting spread is very even, just try high flow with high placement.

I've thought about prodibio in the past but it seemed like it was getting harder to get. I am hesitant to add more generic BioSpira, Microbacter7, etc. But Prodibio in particular seems more hardcore than others, lol. I will look into ordering some and try that. If its a more viable culture, it can't hurt.

 

[TexasTodd]

Blasterman may be onto something with the Palys.

If you have to clean your glass every few days, you should have enough nutrients.

That is a powerful fixture. But if you tested with a PAR meter you should be okay. At the same height and with a tall tank, I was getting well over 300PAR at 44% blue/12% whites and AB+ You do have to be careful with the whites in my experience with that fixture but I'm sure others will say no issues.

 

[ap7x]

Yeah, I’m still figuring it out and relatively new to the SPS in my tank so I was hesitant to post, but everything else for your tank seems on point so it’s weird and I understand how frustrating it can be. So I thought I’d throw it out.

My general flow thoughts also coming from another frag seemingly having better PE with reduced flow in its area (wasn’t directly hit by any stream of flow). To put it in context... had icecap 1k gyre running at 100% random mode on that side; reduced it couple days ago to 50%).

But as I said, I’m tweaking things now after initially just following the “get as much flow as possible as long as it’s not directly hitting corals” idea... so need more time to assess myself.

Hoping others have input (even to say it’s nonsense lol).

edit: oh and I guess I’ll add, along with reduction, I changed from random mode to alternating gyre, but not with the housing changed to go forward and reverse. It basically does regular gyre push forward for 20 sec, then reverses to just turbulent flow for 10 sec at angle down. Just to put more “random” in it