We need a new concept of cycling tanks

[Charles Silva]

Here you will find the best explanation how to cycling a tank including the right salinity, temp, light, PO4 level...

 

[attiland]

The God's must be crazy!!!
Is the nitrogen cycle masterd!? By BRS!? I do not think so! One can not master the nitrogen cycle by adding a bottle available on a store's shelf.
Mastering means having full control, full control over the nitrogen input, or and export rate. BRS even can not make an estimate of the daily nitrogen removal rate, using favored commercial products. Do they promote products able to export nitrogen? Will I be able to decide how much will be exported daily?
Closing the nitrogen cycle is exporting present nitrogen as N2.


I agree the nitrogen cycle is mastered, for a very long time. Long before BRS started influencing the commercial market with videos to sell all kinds of products not really needed to manage an aquarium.
The nitrogen content of a closed life support system can easily be controlled as desired by the system manager since the 9Oties, by exporting daily the daily nitrogen overproduction considered not needed, this way keeping the nitrogen reserve at the by the system manager desired level. Without messing up the entire systems biological balance by throwing some expensive bottles into the water which do not export a thing, they add, maybe some contain something useful.

A system manager has full control over the daily nitrogen removal rate, can adjust the removal rate as desired, and is able to do this for a few decades. Real nitrogen management has never been a problem when using a simple biofilter.

As safely stored nitrogen in the form of nitrate is not considered ever to become a problem we manage the usable nitrogen reserve to be low enough for not to become responsible for coral bleaching due to phosphorus starvation. We try to limit the risk for phosphorus availability may become the main growth-limiting factor by limiting nitrogen availability.

In most cases increasing nutrient levels are the messengers of underlying problems. In aquarium conditions, it has never been confirmed the nutrient level ever was responsible for known issues. But battling them is made big business.


Cycling nitrogen is from N2 back to N2, cycling carbon is from atmospheric CO2 back to atmospheric CO2. What would a maturing cycle be?
Remineralization? As nitrate is considered to be the end product of aerobic mineralization it is difficult to discuss maturing ( conditioning) without talking about nitrogen.

Probably BRS has some products to mature a tank.

Has BRStv dealt with aquariums? Well they have series going on for years. They show the progress for 2+ years in some. They also have comparisons between products and their effects. I have no doubt about their professionalism.
Do they have products for maturing tanks beyond the nitrogen cycle? Not really. They even highlighted it in their video that there are products helping you to deal with the process like Cyano outbreaks but none giving you instant biodiversity.
as per products like dr Tim’s that helps kickstart your Nitrogen cycle they proved to be working. No need rotting shrimp anymore for months. yet we are not talking about nitrogen cycle.

 

[Lasse]

The conclusion of the video above can only be one. The way I describe in my article 15 steps is the right way to cycle a tank. Done right - it will solve all of the problems outlined in the video above. If you want to discuss this claim from me - please do that in my 15 steps thread - not here

However - some of the claims in the video is not - IMO - right. The claim that nitrifiers not need oxygen for their metabolism are not true the way he put it. Nitrifiers are aerobic organisms and they need oxygen as electron acceptors in their metabolism. However - the can go dormant - cyst themself and shout down their metabolism - in that way - they survive oxygen free transport but not because they do not alway use oxygen in their metabolism.

I am also questioning the statement that the fauna in fresh and saltwater is totally different. I have started too many both fresh and saltwater aquarium using filtrated water from forest soil - and got very good result especially when the cycle stalled before the second step. With other words - the adding of soil bacteria promote the conversion of nitrite into nitrate - nitrite has often reach zero (or very close to zero) as fast as 12 hours. This in both fresh and saltwater tanks. If the process in saltwater demand other organism compared with freshwater - this should not be possible. I can buy that there is better adapted organisms but soil must contain organism that can manage the task in saltwater too - otherwise my method should not work. For the first step - archaea´s are very important too.

The point is that our understanding of almost everything in this hobby is better than it was then.

We can cycle a tank in a couple days now. 50 years ago cycling a reef tank was typically throwing damsels in it until they stopped dying - and a 3 or 4 month process.

I do not know your morbidity over there - but this has never been the method in Europe. And I was active at that time (or for 48 years ago )

Sincerely Lasse

 

[robbyg]

The point is that our understanding of almost everything in this hobby is better than it was then.

We can cycle a tank in a couple days now. 50 years ago cycling a reef tank was typically throwing damsels in it until they stopped dying - and a 3 or 4 month process.

I don’t know what they did 50 years ago but 35 years ago we used shrimp or ammonia. The tanks cycled the same as they do today.
Most of the stuff that you say was unknown back then was known! The biggest difference between back then and today is that the equipment you really needed was expensive and for most of us out of reach. One of the big tank killers when I started was the slow death of the corals due to the use of chlorine conditioned tap water for top off. We knew about RODI filters but they were not affordable for most people. The internet has certainly bought much more clarity on most subjects but we did use basically the same systems as today. MH lights are still the best, we had less fancy protein skimmers and most of us used NSW for water changes.

 

[attiland]

I don’t know what they did 50 years ago but 35 years ago we used shrimp or ammonia. The tanks cycled the same as they do today.
Most of the stuff that you say was unknown back then was known! The biggest difference between back then and today is that the equipment you really needed was expensive and for most of us out of reach. One of the big tank killers when I started was the slow death of the corals due to the use of chlorine conditioned tap water for top off. We knew about RODI filters but they were not affordable for most people. The internet has certainly bought much more clarity on most subjects but we did use basically the same systems as today. MH lights are still the best, we had less fancy protein skimmers and most of us used NSW for water changes.

I lot I could agree with. My question to you is when do you consider the cycling to end?

as per that shrimp you did it because there was no battle of bacteria available for you to kickstart the process.

I guess you do realise after that shrimp has rotten away you are only finished the nitrogen cycle.

This topic is after that stage.

 

[stacksoner]

Great post. There certainly needs to be a more standardized way to cycle and start up a tank.

 

[Ippyroy]

It would be nice if someone could create a package for starting up a new tank. Bac in a bottle, dry rock, sand, and a small amount of ammonia. A month later and you get your choice of a fish and some filter feeders and pods and live phyto. A month or so later and maybe some frag plugs covered in coraline and some other bacteria that help in the continuing cycle of our tanks. The main question is, after the nitrogen cycle, what is needed?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Tank + refuge (filter) + water. Anything else to start a new aquarium? light?

A new tank will be colonized by a diverse community within a few days, without doing a thing. it is best to keep enough water motion for good gas exchange. Maybe an airstone? Without adding a thing most bacteria needed for full remineralization will be present after a few days. After a week the tank will turn brownish ( light), photoautotrophs are installed using what is present. When the brownish is clearing the cycle is started, photoautotrophs, bacteria and archaea have used up what is present and are now cycled, dying, and reused, remineralized. When the brownish is gone the tank is ready to accept the first competitors for the present diversity. Enough remineralization and carrying capacity is installed to support the present bio-load. As the bioload is increased and the newcomers must compete for the same nutrients, adding some f2 media will help to install everything needed, to support phytho- and zooplankton and increase the carrying capacity. No " live rock" ? Why, I have a biofilter. Corals only? Sorry!
The more animals are added the more diversity is entered, more food must be added and the carrying capacity increases in balance with the bioload without doing a thing. Animals grow and multiply, until the max carrying capacity is reached. As we made the choice for a biofilter we are able to continue to manage and increase the carrying capacity as needed. Those who did not make that choice must limit the bio-load in the function of the installed carrying capacity. We only have added food and provided light.

Normally you bring in what is needed by introducing live. In most cases by bringing in the first clean up crew.
What if you haven't?
For sure you can not add what is missing by adding a bottle. You will not know what may be missing. You do not know what is in the bottle.? So, how you may know you are supplementing what is missing?
Most microbial mats dominated by Cyano and algae growing on a substrate, corals, are part of a holobiont with incredible diversity, working together to support each other.
As bacteria grow logarithmic only a few are needed. One healthy coral and its natural base will seed all diversity needed.
You must be aware that at this moment only +- 6% of the known diversity can be cultivated in captivity. And of that 6 % only a small part may be viable after being enclosed in a bottle.

 

[Paul B]

I lot I could agree with. My question to you is when do you consider the cycling to end?

Thats easy, the cycling never ends. If you cycle with a dead shrimp, your tank has enough bacteria in it to take care of the wastes caused by a dead shrimp, no more. If you add a fish, more bacteria has to grow. My tank is old and no matter what I add, the bacteria needs to grow to process more wastes.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Bacteria in a bottle does have it's merits and if used properly will greatly reduce or eliminate the ugly stage. But I think people really lack patients these days. I see it in reefing and especially with the flyfishing industry I work in. Everyone wants results and the cool photos but isn't willing to put in the work. It takes time, effort, and heartbreak for true success...

What is considered to be the ugly stage? the Brownish stage? If the ugly stage is reduced or eliminated during cycling a new thank, is this good or bad?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

During the first cycle, nature will install everything needed to complete the first cycle, why adding something of which you probably do not know what it contains exactly. Messing up nature from the start!
The brownish stage is very important as it is the first photoautotrophs bringing in natural organic carbon. It is the base for installing and completing the first cycle. Once the present nutrients are used up, the brownish will clear, and the carbon is used to support remineralization and install the first nutrient and protein cycle.

What is in the bottle? Maybe a very bad start for a new setup? Maybe it contains organic carbon messing up everything from the start.?

Good husbandry is never ad a product to a live support system of which one does not know what it contains exactly, without knowing how and why the product will do what it is supposed to do.

iI one is planning to add fish after a week or a few days, there is no need for cycling the tank, Just bring the tank to a C/N ratio +- 15/1 using low protein food, max 21% protein, and keep it there for a few days, then you can add fish. continue to feed low protein food.

 

[Dfletchh]

Isn’t the ugly stage due to the excess phosphorous and by leaving the lights off during the cycle your not continuing to feed the algae growth? Once the tank balances out lights come on and what’s left of the algae gets eaten up by the clean up crew.

 

[attiland]

Thats easy, the cycling never ends. If you cycle with a dead shrimp, your tank has enough bacteria in it to take care of the wastes caused by a dead shrimp, no more. If you add a fish, more bacteria has to grow. My tank is old and no matter what I add, the bacteria needs to grow to process more wastes.

So we got to the point of we either use a new word for cycling or split up the process.
I agree with the nitrogen cycle never ends. But cycling in many people’s had is about reaching the point where you have all bacteria present for a complete nitrogen cycle and you start to see even phosphate used up in the tank. I am personally not interested in that part and surely you agree this is fare from a ready tank. This part these days can be done with a few battle of bacteria and acouple of fish.
but what shell we call the time between this point and a let’s call it ready for coral. The part where the ugly brown stage and the most ague and bacteria bloom happens?
Is there a standard way to do things to avoid them altogether?
I have seen few things but my experience more in the freshwater part.
Someone said do nothing just wait. I am bad at that. Want to do it right but also want to speed up things if possible.
Is there a magic battle/mud for this?
Is there a method worked for most of you?
Is there secret you can share wit all the beginners?

 

[Ippyroy]

So we got to the point of we either use a new word for cycling or split up the process.
I agree with the nitrogen cycle never ends. But cycling in many people’s had is about reaching the point where you have all bacteria present for a complete nitrogen cycle and you start to see even phosphate used up in the tank. I am personally not interested in that part and surely you agree this is fare from a ready tank. This part these days can be done with a few battle of bacteria and acouple of fish.
but what shell we call the time between this point and a let’s call it ready for coral. The part where the ugly brown stage and the most ague and bacteria bloom happens?
Is there a standard way to do things to avoid them altogether?
I have seen few things but my experience more in the freshwater part.
Someone said do nothing just wait. I am bad at that. Want to do it right but also want to speed up things if possible.
Is there a magic battle/mud for this?
Is there a method worked for most of you?
Is there secret you can share wit all the beginners?

This is what I am trying to get at. I love it when they tell you to wait it out. Then 6 months later they tell you it took you a long to get to this mess, it will take a long time to fix it because nothing good happens fast in a reef tank.

 

[mindme]

Setup tank. Buy Fish. Buy Bacteria in a bottle. Done. It works every time. And you can add in a good bit of fish all at once, which helps with territory. Or you can add some fish, then add more fish and more bacteria. Bacteria is cheap.

I have no idea why anyone thinks putting in ammonia, a shrimp or whatever is somehow going to give you more/different bacteria. I'm guessing it's actually quite the opposite.

Live rock from an ocean can increase bacteria types, as do other items we put in. But aside from LR, you don't put those on down the line after the cycle. If you don't put things in your tank before 6 months because you think 6 months means it's mature, then I disagree. Your tank is not suddenly mature due to the date if it hasn't had the things in it that are going to bring the bacteria. In fact, when you do finally start putting stuff in the tank, you're probably going to knock it's balance off the same as if it was 1 month old.

Beyond that most problems I think are caused by too much bioload. And that is why it takes time for the tank to mature. The golden rule about BTA is don't put one in a tank that's not 6 months old. Yet I put one in a 2 week old tank and had no trouble keeping through the first 6 months. 29g tank. I had 0 algae problems, 0 cyano problems, etc. The reason is it has a low bioload as it's just 2 clown fish in there with it, and a few softies. Easy tank to balance. You fully stock a reef tank with a bunch of fish and then put a BTA in there, your BTA is going to die. Because the bioload is greater than what can be handled. It's not balanced.

I have another tank that gets that heavier bioload and went through all the ugly stages. That tank is older than the BTA tank, and I bet even though that tank was more than 6 months old, the BTA would have struggled in that tank more than the new tank due to all the bioload that needs to be balanced.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

It would be nice if someone could create a package for starting up a new tank. Bac in a bottle, dry rock, sand, and a small amount of ammonia. A month later and you get your choice of a fish and some filter feeders and pods and live phyto. A month or so later and maybe some frag plugs covered in coraline and some other bacteria that help in the continuing cycle of our tanks. The main question is, after the nitrogen cycle, what is needed?

AlgaeBarn more or less has all of this (including at least two of the bacterial "pillars" Belgian Anthias spoke of earlier, I believe); you'd have to combine a few of their packages, but at least you can get it all from one place: Dry Rock (awesome natural dry rock), Aquarium Cycle Kit, Ultimate Ecopack, Coralline Algae in a Bottle. And, the Ultimate Refugium Starter Pack if you're going to run a refugium. https://www.algaebarn.com

 

[Ippyroy]

AlgaeBarn more or less has all of this (including at least two of the bacterial "pillars" Belgian Anthias spoke of earlier, I believe); you'd have to combine a few of their packages, but at least you can get it all from one place: Dry Rock (awesome natural dry rock), Aquarium Cycle Kit, Ultimate Ecopack, Coralline Algae in a Bottle. And, the Ultimate Refugium Starter Pack if you're going to run a refugium. https://www.algaebarn.com

I love Algae Barn, but stay away from the coraline in a bottle. I got the great green hard algae that is making it really hard to tell the macro green apart. i can't wait for it to go away.

 

[IKD]

I feel like Elon Musk will read this thread for ideas on making Mars habitable in a 2 week cycle.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If a new concept for conditioning of a marine tank is needed:

Conditioning a tank the natural way is still the prefered concept, for cycling a tank and install a reliable carying capacity.

In fact this is an old concept but for many it will be new. For setting up a new tank and bring in the full bioload within a week?
The method is used for transport or tempory isolation tanks. For high load show tanks.
For a home aquarium previously conditioned BADES rolls are not needed, the rolls and filter can be condition together with the rest of the tank over a period of at least 3 weeks.

A new tank is set up with sterilized and rinsed aragonite based sand and rock. all pumps are turning, lights on. skimmer is off or not needed. A refuge to be used as a biofilter is connected . Then the refuge is filled with freshly made seawater and some urean (30% nitrogen, urea + ammonium nitrate) is added, enough for +- 1ppm nitrogen to be present in the system. Conditioned BADES rolls are placed in the refuge and a flow of +- 1x the system volume/h is maintained. When some nitrate is exported, afther +- 1-2 days, the first fish can be added and fed high protein food, the bioload can be doubled each day. The BADES rolls and introduced animals will seed the substrate and rock with all diversity needed. One can also hang up some conditioned BADES rolls in the tank or sump but in that case the nitrogen removal rate will not easily be manageable . To increase the carying capacity one just has to add a freshly made bades roll to the refuge. Total investment for the coming years, a fist full of one dollar bills.

By using BADES aplications the nitrogen cycle can really be "Mastered" , nitrogen is effectifly exported from the system as nitrogen gas and the export rate can be managed and controlled as desired.

 

[beaslbob]

5 pages later I still say start out with macro algae then do the rest. The macros will consume ammonia directly as the bacteria builds up. Preventing spiked during the cycle. But this is not a new way of thinking.