Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
The parable of bacteria in a bottle: http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm
We need a new concept of cycling tanks
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92Miata
Valuable Member
The point is that our understanding of almost everything in this hobby is better than it was then.
We can cycle a tank in a couple days now. 50 years ago cycling a reef tank was typically throwing damsels in it until they stopped dying - and a 3 or 4 month process.
attiland
2500 Club Member
And where do you get that? I would be up for it if I could get it in the LFS
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Ippyroy
Defeater of Dinos
IPSF.com sales some online.
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Ippyroy
Defeater of Dinos
Exactly. The hobby has mastered the ammonia/nitrogen cycle. Now it is time to look in depth at the maturing cycle and how to tell when it is "done" and how to speed it up. This would be key to long term success for newbies like myself. i am sure it can be done.
attiland
2500 Club Member
I just happened to watch a video on BRStv about cycling last night and even they are unsure of some of these. They noticed that bare buttom Tanks are cycling different to sand one and dry rock cycling different to live etc
www.bulkreefsupply.com
I have a feeling that chasing numbers is where we are going wrong. Somehow measuring biodiversity would be a better thing but I know no good way to do this.
Cycling a reef tank with dry rock and want to do it right? Top 23 reasons it may FAIL.
Ryan and Randy tackle an age old topic of aquarium cycling with a new twist! Starting your tank using dry rock and using modern bacteria products to cycle your aquarium is a different approach from the live rock days of old. Find out how to do it right and avoid the bumps in the road with these...
I have a feeling that chasing numbers is where we are going wrong. Somehow measuring biodiversity would be a better thing but I know no good way to do this.
While I agree that our understanding has improved on many things, the cycle is still the same cycle. How we provide ammonia is not important to the bacteria/archaea. Personally, I never lost a fish when cycling, but I know that many have.
The original Berlin cycling method had more than just stabilization of the nitrogen cycle going for it. It was known back then that the nitrogen cycle would take 'about a month' under normal circumstances. The reason for waiting 3, 4 or even up to 6 months or more was to allow the full compliment of bacterial/archaea and other micro/marco communities to proliferate and stabilize before adding the more delicate 'must have' organisms.
blasterman
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Dont know how many times I've stated this, but discussing nitrogen cycling is like discussing how to make ice cubes. It's one of the most absurdly over rated and pointless topics on reefing forums. For dry tanks throw some stupid ammonia in it and let bacteria due their thing. For the sake of forum traffic and selling products the nitrogen cycle is treated like changing control rods in a nuclear reactor.
Having reefed for over 30 years and have set up dozens of tanks the biology that occurs *AFTER* the initial nitrogen cycle is a million times more problematic and unpredictable. The 2-6 month tank maturity period causes 99% of our problems, and this what we need to discuss. Even BRS guys are starting to push this issue, and this is where healthy LR provides so much advantage. However, the reality is we don't all have access to healthy LR, so how do you get to proper tank maturity after the initial nitrogen cycle with the least amount of pitfalls; HA, Cyano, Dinos, etc. Thats what we need to be discussing, not the stupid nitrogen cycle. That was covered in 6th grade.
Having reefed for over 30 years and have set up dozens of tanks the biology that occurs *AFTER* the initial nitrogen cycle is a million times more problematic and unpredictable. The 2-6 month tank maturity period causes 99% of our problems, and this what we need to discuss. Even BRS guys are starting to push this issue, and this is where healthy LR provides so much advantage. However, the reality is we don't all have access to healthy LR, so how do you get to proper tank maturity after the initial nitrogen cycle with the least amount of pitfalls; HA, Cyano, Dinos, etc. Thats what we need to be discussing, not the stupid nitrogen cycle. That was covered in 6th grade.
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Ippyroy
Defeater of Dinos
That is why I am not trying to discuss the nitrogen cycle. It is done. It is mastered. I am trying to discuss the actual maturing cycle. BRS talked about it in one of their latest videos last week. The nitrogen cycle is mastered. Dump in a bottle and you can add a fish in a week or less.
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Ippyroy
Defeater of Dinos
This is the video that started me thinking and why I tried to start a conversation about it. Instead peope keep talking about the nitrogen cycle which has been mastered. Now it is time to start talking about and working on the next part of the cycle, which is building the bacterial film and abuilding biodiversity. By doing this we can get away from live rock and make dry rock more successful. If we are able to cycle a tank for the nitrogen cycle in a week or less, there should be a way to help a tank made with dry rock and dry sand become mature in less than a year, allowing people to get into the hobby and be successful quickly.I just happened to watch a video on BRStv about cycling last night and even they are unsure of some of these. They noticed that bare buttom Tanks are cycling different to sand one and dry rock cycling different to live etc
Cycling a reef tank with dry rock and want to do it right? Top 23 reasons it may FAIL.
Ryan and Randy tackle an age old topic of aquarium cycling with a new twist! Starting your tank using dry rock and using modern bacteria products to cycle your aquarium is a different approach from the live rock days of old. Find out how to do it right and avoid the bumps in the road with these...
I have a feeling that chasing numbers is where we are going wrong. Somehow measuring biodiversity would be a better thing but I know no good way to do this.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
A ZMAS ( zero emission marine aquarium system) is set up with new-made artificial seawater. Most salt mixes try to mimic natural conditions, most salts are about the same. What is the carrying capacity of such a new setup system without doing a thing, only aeration to get some circulation and better gas exchange? After a day, after a week, after a month? Nothing added, only water in the tank. When the tank will be cycled?
Every animal carries its specimen specific bacteria, why bother about diversity? Adding one animal will bring in more live diversity as any bottle can contain.
If it is the intention to keep corals, why not introduce a coral and its holobiont first? Such a holobiont may contain 400 different species and clades including all different bacteria needed to support the carrying capacity and will bring in coral specific diversity. Will the next evolution be "the coral holobiont in a bottle"?
Every animal carries its specimen specific bacteria, why bother about diversity? Adding one animal will bring in more live diversity as any bottle can contain.
If it is the intention to keep corals, why not introduce a coral and its holobiont first? Such a holobiont may contain 400 different species and clades including all different bacteria needed to support the carrying capacity and will bring in coral specific diversity. Will the next evolution be "the coral holobiont in a bottle"?
attiland
2500 Club Member
That is actually I would buy into. My approach is when I introduce 2000 different bacteria than I have a chance of having the essential 500 I actually need. The rest will potentially die of after a while but the point is that 500 needed in my system is there.
yes you will introduce some of it with your me fish/coral but what if you haven’t. Like your peace happens not to have it? Or died in your quarantine/dip?
We are so sterile in our approach and than surprised of issues.
we have broken bacterial system so we have Cyano and different algae outbreaks.
It also seems to be mystified too by the lack of our knowledge about the topic and self selected experts on the internet.
Don’t get me wrong I am the first one needs extending my knowledge in this field. That is why I am here.
fish farmer
2500 Club Member
Are you searching for an answer like, "how do we measure bacteria/biodiversity?"?
That seems to be what I gather, how to know the tank is rich with microorganisms. I know your link was referring to live rock, but back in the day when deep sand beds were popular, Ron Shimek had criteria for the proper population of sand bed fauna. He had normal sand beds having 10,000 to 100,000 animals per meters squared. He described was to take samples and view with magnifying lens. If they were lower , you fed more or started adding micro fauna and evaluated every six months.
I wouldn't have a bottle of DinoX in my inventory if it weren't for their product. Heck, I didn't even know what Dino's were until I tried cheating with their product. Did I do something wrong, maybe, and I'll probably never know what it was because I'll never go down that road again. Lesson learned there
Paul B
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I guess you can. But a bottle of ammonia or bacteria is going to do nothing for real biodiversity and the number and types of bacteria you will get in a bottle is a small fraction of what our tanks need. They need many different types of bacteria, many of which will not live in a bottle along with the viruses. Viruses and bacteria both prey on parasites which many people seem to have problems with.
I actually cycled my still running tank almost fifty years ago and so far I have no problems and I don't have to quarantine. The tank never crashed and I never have to medicate or quarantine. I think that is because of the natural bacteria, viruses and parasites I add in the same proportions that are in the sea, not in a bottle.
Just my opinion of course.
Here is a good test, someone start up a tank and within a week or even a month for that matter, introduce a new and keep it alive. I think that is what we're trying to get at with this thread if I'm not mistaken. The answer shouldn't have to be "that's just crazy talk".
So here is something I did with my 220 build, I added nanochropsis. Wasn't expecting to create a 220g culture of it, but that's what I ended up with. Didn't hurt anything, but these types of things are vital pieces of the entire life cycle that we may be overlooking.
So here is something I did with my 220 build, I added nanochropsis. Wasn't expecting to create a 220g culture of it, but that's what I ended up with. Didn't hurt anything, but these types of things are vital pieces of the entire life cycle that we may be overlooking.
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Ippyroy
Defeater of Dinos
That is close. I'm looking for an answer per se because there isn't one, yet. I am trying to get an idea of how to build the diversity since live rock ot established rock are not options for me. IPSF seems like a great start and I am searching for similar places that I can order stuff from as well that will help build up the bacteria and beneficial organisms. Getting some sponges would be nice.
Ef4life
Well-Known Member
Dead shrimp from the grocery store - it’s all I’ve ever used.
I look at it this way, adding ammonia in a bottle is going to work, bacteria is in and on we breath, eat, touch, literally everything and it just takes time to and the right conditions for it to colonize and flourish. But by just adding ammonia, your only going to grow bacteria colonies that deals with ammonia. Then nitrite bacteria will form.
A dead shrimp is going to rot, it’s going to produce ammonia, it’s going to produce other bacteria also to deal with the decaying mass. Would you eat a raw shrimp left on the counter for 3 days? No, it’s full of harmful bacteria (to humans) but that bacteria isn’t bad at all, it’s doing it’s job of breaking down the shrimp and eventually it will be completely consumed. Same thing in the tank. That bacteria is what you need to break down dead fish, snails, poop, uneaten food etc. why waste money on ammonia and bacteria in a bottle when it’s practically free??
Then moving on to the topic of bio diversity. Fish have bacteria in their gut, just like people. That bacteria will be in the poop. Different fish, different bacteria’s, different lfs stores, different bacteria’s. Bacteria is on the snails shells. Buying corals from different places, local and online etc. can it replicate the diversity of real ocean live rock? Probably not, but to have a thriving healthy reef it doesn’t necessarily have to have every strain of bacteria on the planet either.
I’m not saying bottled ammonia and bacteria don’t work, because they do it’s just not for me. And no matter what it’s going to take time for every tank to mature, which is true of everything from human babies, puppies, turtles, etc. nothing is born fully grown it takes time for them to grow and mature. Then the care, maintenance, changes we make etc all can effect that maturing process either positively or negatively. That’s why no 2 people are the same, just like no 2 reefs are the same.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
The God's must be crazy!!!
Is the nitrogen cycle masterd!? By BRS!? I do not think so! One can not master the nitrogen cycle by adding a bottle available on a store's shelf.
Mastering means having full control, full control over the nitrogen input, or and export rate. BRS even can not make an estimate of the daily nitrogen removal rate, using favored commercial products. Do they promote products able to export nitrogen? Will I be able to decide how much will be exported daily?
Closing the nitrogen cycle is exporting present nitrogen as N2.
I agree the nitrogen cycle is mastered, for a very long time. Long before BRS started influencing the commercial market with videos to sell all kinds of products not really needed to manage an aquarium.
The nitrogen content of a closed life support system can easily be controlled as desired by the system manager since the 9Oties, by exporting daily the daily nitrogen overproduction considered not needed, this way keeping the nitrogen reserve at the by the system manager desired level. Without messing up the entire systems biological balance by throwing some expensive bottles into the water which do not export a thing, they add, maybe some contain something useful.
A system manager has full control over the daily nitrogen removal rate, can adjust the removal rate as desired, and is able to do this for a few decades. Real nitrogen management has never been a problem when using a simple biofilter.
As safely stored nitrogen in the form of nitrate is not considered ever to become a problem we manage the usable nitrogen reserve to be low enough for not to become responsible for coral bleaching due to phosphorus starvation. We try to limit the risk for phosphorus availability may become the main growth-limiting factor by limiting nitrogen availability.
In most cases increasing nutrient levels are the messengers of underlying problems. In aquarium conditions, it has never been confirmed the nutrient level ever was responsible for known issues. But battling them is made big business.
Cycling nitrogen is from N2 back to N2, cycling carbon is from atmospheric CO2 back to atmospheric CO2. What would a maturing cycle be?
Remineralization? As nitrate is considered to be the end product of aerobic mineralization it is difficult to discuss maturing ( conditioning) without talking about nitrogen.
Probably BRS has some products to mature a tank.
I recently set up my first tank in probably 12yrs. A lot has changed since then. On my last tank I pulled super established live rock from my dad's 75 he was tearing down and set up a 40 breeder with absolutely zero cycle. Let it sit for a month and started adding fish. I feel like the process from "cycled" dry rock to fish is the same now as it was then. However 3 months in I had growing and colored up Acros in that tank. The sponges, feather dusters, and other filter feeders on that hand picked fiji and tonga rock definitely play a part in the overall "filtering" of the tank.
With dry rock now days I feel like people want that insta tank. I hate my current scape and am about to pull it and replace with rock cycled in a tub to where it can support my 3 springeri damsels. I'm in no rush. But, I think no light til you can grow coralline will greatly suppress any dino/cyano outbreak. Bacteria in a bottle does have it's merits and if used properly will greatly reduce or eliminate the ugly stage. But I think people really lack patients these days. I see it in reefing and especially with the flyfishing industry I work in. Everyone wants results and the cool photos but isn't willing to put in the work. It takes time, effort, and heartbreak for true success...
With dry rock now days I feel like people want that insta tank. I hate my current scape and am about to pull it and replace with rock cycled in a tub to where it can support my 3 springeri damsels. I'm in no rush. But, I think no light til you can grow coralline will greatly suppress any dino/cyano outbreak. Bacteria in a bottle does have it's merits and if used properly will greatly reduce or eliminate the ugly stage. But I think people really lack patients these days. I see it in reefing and especially with the flyfishing industry I work in. Everyone wants results and the cool photos but isn't willing to put in the work. It takes time, effort, and heartbreak for true success...
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