We need a new concept of cycling tanks

[Ippyroy]

I think that’s a great question. Most people only focus on the nitrogen cycle. While that is certainly important, there’s a reason why reef tanks tend to really kick into gear after a year or so and in my opinion that reason is biodiversity. Last year I set up a 900 gal reef tank in a corporate lobby. I have access to many systems so no problem seeding biodiversity into the 180 gal fuge via chaeto, ceramic bio spheres, “mud”...whatever, and it looked good right out of the gate. LPS, SPS everything. But after a year, it’s amazing. The acro’s in particular have really taken off. I think some of the commercial products can be helpful, but it would be nice to have access to a broader range of diverse microbes.

This is what I want to talk about. The nitrogen cycle has been solved to the point where we can safely add fish in a week or less. Yet, our tanks are unstable for about a year. There are plenty of things in a bottle that we can dose, but they have to be constantly dosed and therefore purchased. Many of them, aka Vibrant, are just masks for underlying problems. Since people have figured out how to speed up the nitrogen cycle, why can't we figure out a way to speed up the rate of maturing. People tend to think that the nitrogen cycle is the only cycle needed in a reef tank. I am not trying to skip the ugly stages completely, but the ability to get over them a little quicker would be great.

 

[Character85]

Rubbish !!!

Ask the pros from the show "Tanked". It can be done in 15 minutes

Tanked is terrible. I used to work in the office of a non profit 20 yrs ago that ended up getting a 300 gallon tank built by these guys. They used a crappy no name brand pump not sufficient to handle the water volume and an inline canister filter. While they were filming the episode word got around from the other office that I was a "fish guru". Back then I was an african cichlid expert, not marine. They wanted me to put my $0.02 in. I came by the other office the last day of filming and was horrified when I saw they threw 500 goldfish in this tank all at once and got the final shot. We all kno goldfish are the dirtiest of fish on the planet. I warned the operating staff that they were gonna lose like 90% of the fish in a week or so. Noone believed me. Sure enough they were getting so many floaters the intake got clogged and they asked me to help them. I made them pay me overtime on top of my salary plus travel to take care of it. The first thing I said was they need a better pump and we need to get rid of the excessive 90's in the piping. The pump could sieze and jam and superheat the tank. They wouldn't allow me to spend anything on the tank. About 2 weeks in the pump siezed overnight and was grinding in the on position. The water in the sump was like bath water. The remainder of the fish were floating. Needless to say I redid the plumbing and sump with my own dime and build a great cichlid tank. Its still there and flourishing to this day.

 

[Barnabie Mejia]

one thing that I recommend:

If you are starting to build a tank, or know that you are going to be setting up a tank, you can seed the tank instantly with biodiversity from day one. you just really have to stop and think about it and not get wrapped up in everything coming up to the tank start up.
when I decided that I was going to build a 75 gallon tank, I started to accumulate the equipment and essentials for the build, but I also went out and bought 2 gallons of marine pure spheres and (1) 1" marine pure block ( I don't want to get into the debate of them being factories or aluminum at this time, not the thread or place for it right now). I put 1 gallon into my 29g reef, 1/2 gallon into my brother in laws tank, the block into the sump of the display tank at my buddies LFS, and the other half gallon into a 5 gallon bucket that was dosed with seachem stability, microbacter7, Dr Tims, and ghost fed slightly (all at different times). I left them like that until I was ready to start up the tank (3 - 4 months) when I started the tank up I took a little from here, little from there and I had no worries starting it up with dry rock, dry sand... put fish in on day 2, added 8 more fish on day 5. have not had bacterial bloom, didn't dose ammonia, tank is crystal clear, parameters are as follows:
Alk - 9.4dKH
Calc - 450ppm
Mag - 1450ppm
NO3 - 2ppm
PO4 - .02
SG - 1.026
Temp 79*

maybe some thinking ahead would help with these issues.....

Barnabie

 

[Ippyroy]

Thank you.
First off I am not sure why people are always cycling. I cycled my tank in 1971 and it stayed cycled so I went on with my life and never thought about it again. I probably put in a half dead trilobite then went out to dinner and forgot about it.
What happened to the millions of tanks that were started since the hobby started in 1970? Where are they?

After saying that, I personally believe a tank should be cycled like the ocean was cycled, without the meteorites which make a mess and could possibly break your glass.

I don't think the ocean was cycled with ammonia or bacteria in a bottle. The earth is composed of bacteria, why would you put it in a bottle? It's like bottled water. Great Idea someone had of taking something that was free, putting it in a bottle and charging $3.00 for it. Imagine what that guys reef tank looks like.

Dead fish are also free. Get some rock, preferably live either from a LFS, a person with a tank or best idea, the sea.
If you live near any salt water it could be a brick or the door handle of a 1957 Oldsmobile. It doesn't matter because if it is under water, it is covered in the right type of "free" bacteria. Yesterday I threw a handful of mud from the sea in my tank.

If you don't live near the sea either move, or get some muck from a LFS.
Throw in any dead creature, it could be a fish, shrimp or a duck billed platypus then go and watch Oprah Winfrey give away gift certificates to homeless cats.

If the water turns milky and maybe even stinks a little, don't tell your girlfriend, but it is a good sign.
Eventually it will clear and after you change some water, and maybe your underwear, put in a fish. Not a $400.00 Achilles tang. Maybe a cardinal. Feed the thing. Get another fish, not a halibut, maybe a clownfish. Wait a while and buy something else.

Thats how to successfully cycle a tank. Then in 50 or so years come back on here and let us know if it was successful.

I get what you are saying, but the fact that I can kick the nitrogen cycle into high gear and add a fish to my tank immediately after dumping in a bottle of bacteria is amazing. This is much better and faster than waiting a month or two. As far as comparing it to bottled water I agree, but the bottled bacteria works faster, therefore I will use. My clothes will dry for free too but I still use a dryer to speed up the process.

If I lived next to the beach, I wouldn't want a reef tank. Why would I spend good money on something that was outside my door for free? I miss the beach and snorkeling and scuba diving regularly. The nearest LFS is 2 hours away, with nearest good and trustworthy LFS being closer to 5 hours. I am far from being the only person in this predicament. With the wonders of the internet, I am now a few clicks away from an amazing LFS. It sales everything, from true great things to absolute snake oil.

 

[Dom]

@BRS brought up a great point last week about cycling our tanks and how we to rethink it. We currently only deal with the nitrogen cycle and forget about or don't even think about the bacterial part of it. This is the problem that newer tanks seem to deal with. We have gotten to the point where we can put together a tank in a week and have fish in them fine. Then we have to struggle for a year or so with all of the issues that arise from dry rock and dry sand. I personally prefer dry sand and dry rock because of the complete lack of invasive pests, yet I am missing a large amount of helpful biodiversitey organisms like sponges and other natural filters as well as the almost complete lack of good bacteria. I can't find much if any good information on this.

I am just beginning to cycle a small 20 gallon AIO. I am using Microbacter XLM and ammonia and will add Microbacter Clean after the first week. After a month of dosing both I will add a fish or two, then I will add some mud and other fun things from ipsf.com hoping to incease the biodiversity of my tank from the early start.

Sorry for the long winded post, but are there any other things I could do to help it along besides using live rock? I am open to any and all suggestions.

The nitrogen cycle doesn’t happen without the “bacteria part”.

 

[snowhite]

"We need to rethink". "We need to change". "We need to blah blah blah".

People need to do what works for them. Personally, theres is no way I'd start a tank with dry rock and deal with the extended problems, algae, etc etc etc while having to compensate for not paying for Live Rock and in the process end up spending similar $$$ on bacterias in bottles, and all the other stuff that's "recommended online".

The more I watch threads the more I'm convinced that people create 90+% of their own tank problems by overcomplicating things or being hell bent on "changing" things.

 

[kylebeano]

why can't we figure out a way to speed up the rate of maturing. People tend to think that the nitrogen cycle is the only cycle needed in a reef tank. I am not trying to skip the ugly stages completely, but the ability to get over them a little quicker would be great.

Its probably too multifactorial to point down, but I think a big part is the continuous addition and removal of livestock within a tanks first year. I probably added livestock from two dozen tanks in my first year. Organisms need to compete, will have explosion of some things (brittle stars, pods, algaes, worms, fans, etc), and they need to find how they fit, that just takes some time, especially with us continuously interfering

 

[Lasse]

What do you define as a balanced nutrient source?

This

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ScottR]

Lots of posts. I’ve kept enough tanks to know. To get that biodiversity from a complete dry start, you have to introduce corals to get those bacterial strains introduced. Some may live and some may die. But the bacteria should live on. And it’s that long process from there. Other inverts may introduce a good amount of biodiversity. Even fish poop. Patience is key I guess.

 

[air_run]

In case anyone is interested, the mud i used is AF life source, think only MD has it in stock, only a few left.

Aquatic Sealife also carries AF Life Source for anyone interested.

 

[ScottR]

This

Sincerely Lasse

I am in week 2 of my 500L/130g build, primarily using your method with a variation of my own that has always worked. I think the key to success is quality live rock first and foremost.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Really interesting that we are even having this conversation when 50+ years ago successful cycling procedure had been already worked out for reef aquariums.

 

[Ippyroy]

50 years ago electric cars were a dream and having a computer in your pocket that had more power than what put man on the moon wasn't even a thought. 20 years ago and we were still dreaming about being able to see the person we were talking with on a phone. Times have changed and we have progressed. The same thing in reef keeping. It is a constant changing and evolving process. 50 years ago most cars used leaded fuel. Just because something worked great before doesn't mean there isn't a better and faster way to do it today.

 

[Nano sapiens]

50 years ago electric cars were a dream and having a computer in your pocket that had more power than what put man on the moon wasn't even a thought. 20 years ago and we were still dreaming about being able to see the person we were talking with on a phone. Times have changed and we have progressed. The same thing in reef keeping. It is a constant changing and evolving process. 50 years ago most cars used leaded fuel. Just because something worked great before doesn't mean there isn't a better and faster way to do it today.

Perfect! You illustrate a though process which is prevalent in today's advanced societies, namely the idea that something man-made like technology is similar to biology.

Consider that while technology advances/changes in a matter of months/years/decades, biology has been around for millions/billions of years and microbes naturally adapt/change to suit the environment. The thought that somehow we are going to improve/change the way nature works in our lifetimes...umm, not going to happen.

As I see it, our job is simply to introduce natural reef system bacteria, give them a place and time to multiply, provide a food source and not kill them off. How we do that can vary a little, but as long as the end goal is met, then we will very likely end up with a stable, successful system.

 

[Ef4life]

50 years ago electric cars were a dream and having a computer in your pocket that had more power than what put man on the moon wasn't even a thought. 20 years ago and we were still dreaming about being able to see the person we were talking with on a phone. Times have changed and we have progressed. The same thing in reef keeping. It is a constant changing and evolving process. 50 years ago most cars used leaded fuel. Just because something worked great before doesn't mean there isn't a better and faster way to do it today.

130 years ago there was the first electric car.

Faster does not mean better. New methods don’t necessarily mean older methods are now obsolete. Imo I think some of these rushed new methods are what’s potentially causing all these Dino’s tanks. I’ve never rushed, or tried a new method and I’ve never had them in any of my tanks and I only use dry rock.

 

[Nano sapiens]

130 years ago there was the first electric car.

Faster does not mean better. New methods don’t necessarily mean older methods are now obsolete. Imo I think some of these rushed new methods are what’s potentially causing all these Dino’s tanks. I’ve never rushed, or tried a new method and I’ve never had them in any of my tanks and I only use dry rock.

Curious, with just dry rock how do you acquire the needed microorganisms for your aquariums? Just fish and frag plugs/small rocks or some other inoculation?

 

[92Miata]

Really interesting that we are even having this conversation when 50+ years ago successful cycling procedure had been already worked out for reef aquariums.

50 years ago many of the animals that are common were 'impossible'.

So you're saying don't use ammonia atall to cycle? What do you define as a balanced nutrient source? If brand new reefers followed the whole process of using ammonia properly in a fishless cycle, Nitrates would never be an issue as the final water change is designed to eliminate the excess nitrates.

I'm also not entirely sure how excess nitrates effects alkalinity atall, do you mind expanding on that comment?

I didn't have a chance to read Lasse's article - so if all this is covered - ignore me.


Everything in the ocean consumes nitrogen, carbon, and phosphorus - most things in 106C:16N:1P ratio. The exact ratio isn't super important here - what's important is that everything needs all 3.

Corals typically get Nitrogen and Phosphate from your feeding (directly, or indirectly), and carbon from Bicarbonate/Alkalinity.

Many nuisance organisms are able to get what they need through sneaky tricks - cyano for instance can get nitrogen from dissolved atmospheric inert N2 gas - basically just pulling it out of the air. Some strains of cyano can also create an acidic environment and dissolve aragonite to get phosphorus. Many algaes can get carbon from dissolved CO2, or can trap waste to keep it from dissolving in the water column and being available to other organisms.

Now, in a mature, balanced environment - macro animals outcompete bacteria/archaea - corals can process ammonia and phosphorus in pretty huge quantity - so it never gets to the point that its available - but coral has very few tricks to deal with when things aren't in balance.

So when you are out of balance - and coral/etc can't process much - you create a hugely advantageous environment for these critters that have tricks. For instance - not only does bottoming out nitrate not bother cyano - but it means everything else stops eating phosphate and carbon - so there's tons available for that cyano.

Dosing tons and tons of ammonia drives down phosphate and carbon (because the bacteria/etc that need all 3 multiply)- and creates a great environment for things that have alternate methods to attain carbon and phosphate.

When newbies see the result of this - they start dosing other stuff depending on what's decided to exploit this imbalance - sometimes its chemiclean - which just kills the cyano, re-opens the niche the cyano was occupying and something else pops up. When the short nutrient is carbon - the tank typically ends up getting GFO - or carbon - which lowers nitrogen somewhat, and also crashes phosphorus.

IE - adding 100 ppm of nitrate to your tank with no phosphate or carbon causes lots of imbalances - which are really tough to restore - and by the time you've started doing water changes - things have already established themselves. And the targeted fixes just make things worse, or change the nutrient thats short.



As to alkalinity/nitrate - Processing Ammonia to nitrite consumes alkalinity.Processing Nitrate to biomass releases alkalinity. Typically - this process is a cycle and is alkalinity neutral - but when you dump a ton of ammonia in your tank and then try to remove the resulting nitrate through water changes - its clearly not.

 

[Lasse]

50 years ago electric cars were a dream and having a computer in your pocket that had more power than what put man on the moon wasn't even a thought. 20 years ago and we were still dreaming about being able to see the person we were talking with on a phone. Times have changed and we have progressed. The same thing in reef keeping. It is a constant changing and evolving process. 50 years ago most cars used leaded fuel. Just because something worked great before doesn't mean there isn't a better and faster way to do it today.

Do you mean that basic biological principles have change during this last 50 years - or what? Technology have change - it is easier now to maintain a good water quality, good water movement and good light - but when we starts to trying change biological processes with chemicals or changing the first rule of life - stability through diversity - we go wrong. We have learned to have stony corals in aquarium - how to do that we did not know 50 years ago - but the demands and the principles for a complete nitrification was discovered for more than 50 years ago and directly adapted among aquarists.

Of cause you can start a good aquarium with only dry rocks and sand but rocks from the ocean and living sand and mud make things easier to do. 99 % of the hitchhikers is good - the restraining 1 % can we handle IMO. For me its important to first establish a nitrification cycle (complete) and after that fix the other microbial task you need to solve in order to get a working aquarium.

50 years ago many of the animals that are common were 'impossible'.

I didn't have a chance to read Lasse's article - so if all this is covered - ignore me.


Everything in the ocean consumes nitrogen, carbon, and phosphorus - most things in 106C:16N:1P ratio. The exact ratio isn't super important here - what's important is that everything needs all 3.

Corals typically get Nitrogen and Phosphate from your feeding (directly, or indirectly), and carbon from Bicarbonate/Alkalinity.

Many nuisance organisms are able to get what they need through sneaky tricks - cyano for instance can get nitrogen from dissolved atmospheric inert N2 gas - basically just pulling it out of the air. Some strains of cyano can also create an acidic environment and dissolve aragonite to get phosphorus. Many algaes can get carbon from dissolved CO2, or can trap waste to keep it from dissolving in the water column and being available to other organisms.

Now, in a mature, balanced environment - macro animals outcompete bacteria/archaea - corals can process ammonia and phosphorus in pretty huge quantity - so it never gets to the point that its available - but coral has very few tricks to deal with when things aren't in balance.

So when you are out of balance - and coral/etc can't process much - you create a hugely advantageous environment for these critters that have tricks. For instance - not only does bottoming out nitrate not bother cyano - but it means everything else stops eating phosphate and carbon - so there's tons available for that cyano.

Dosing tons and tons of ammonia drives down phosphate and carbon (because the bacteria/etc that need all 3 multiply)- and creates a great environment for things that have alternate methods to attain carbon and phosphate.

When newbies see the result of this - they start dosing other stuff depending on what's decided to exploit this imbalance - sometimes its chemiclean - which just kills the cyano, re-opens the niche the cyano was occupying and something else pops up. When the short nutrient is carbon - the tank typically ends up getting GFO - or carbon - which lowers nitrogen somewhat, and also crashes phosphorus.

IE - adding 100 ppm of nitrate to your tank with no phosphate or carbon causes lots of imbalances - which are really tough to restore - and by the time you've started doing water changes - things have already established themselves. And the targeted fixes just make things worse, or change the nutrient thats short.



As to alkalinity/nitrate - Processing Ammonia to nitrite consumes alkalinity.Processing Nitrate to biomass releases alkalinity. Typically - this process is a cycle and is alkalinity neutral - but when you dump a ton of ammonia in your tank and then try to remove the resulting nitrate through water changes - its clearly not.

We are in the same county - probably even at the same street My article is 15 steps to start an aquarium - they are based on the same thoughts that you have written in your post

Sincerely Lasse

 

[TruckerTami]

I started a 36 bowfront With HOB filter, FOWLR 2 years ago. Knew nothing. Used
Live sand and dry rock. Dosed bacteria the LFS told me to, added a pair of clowns. Was buying the LFS water and everything was great. Algae started and so did cyano. Manager of LFS whispered to me to check the TDS of the RODI water I was buying for the fresh tank, and told me it’s the same water they mix their salt with. Bought a meter went home and tested and the RO was at 200 TDS. Went online and bought an RODI system and haven’t had issues since I started making my own water and added an HOB skimmer to that tank besides everyone 6 months a little cyano. Also those 2 clowns I was told to “cycle with” when I did not know better, thankfully are still in that tank


I watched every great YouTube video and decided to build a 40 breeder and have a sump.
Used dry rock and live sand. Added bacteria and ammonia (Which I did not use on the other tank) to cycle and let it stew for a month and a half. When everything looked and tested great slowly added fish, CUC and some frags. Then the “uglies” started. Was patient, but nitrates kept sitting at 25 with Phos around 0.06-0.04.
Gf was complaining about tank being ugly and I decided to do a 50% water change to bring down the nitrate. Started to blow off diatoms with a baster a couple days later and noticed nitrate and phos super low, and then the start of Dino’s. Tank is currently on a 3 day blackout after a half dose of waste away and hoping it’s gonna be good after this. Thinking about getting a chunk of live rock from Tampa Bay Salt to help add that bio diversity I don’t think I can get from any bottle. Next time I set up a tank I believe I will use live rock and sand as I really don’t fear hitch hikers at this point after seeing so many different opinions from everyone.

Patience is key, I rushed a huge water change to try to overnight cure a problem and ended up making things a lot worse. I believe had I started the cycle out differently, without dosing ammonia at the level I did, I might not be here. I need to find some of those books the old schoolers read.

I know you old school reefers are out there, just know, I am listening. I think too many people read the stuff online and listen to YouTube videos and decide that only one way is the way they are going to do things. When I started this, I was told to have a sterile system, it was the only way to keep pests out. Start sterile stay sterile. That did not seem right to me, the beach doesn’t seem sterile to me.
What works for you may not work for the guy next door. I see people who started their tanks out completely wrong, yet adapted and tried new things they never thought they would do, have great success. If we can heal our tanks with all the knowledge that is out there and still being learned maybe we can heal our oceans too.

 

[Nano sapiens]

50 years ago many of the animals that are common were 'impossible'.

Has nothing to do with cycling, but rather the specific requirements for the corals/other organisms (ex: specific alkalinity, calcium and magnesium ranges for SPS).