Wet Dry Plus Carbon Dosing > Skimmer

[GARRIGA]

Key to the Berlin Method was mechanically removing organics prior to breaking down and why Wet Dry were named nitrate factories as well as replacing the gas exchange lost from dripping water through media such as bio balls. Fast forward to the advances in understanding the affects of carbon dosing and items such as GFO and now we have the option to perhaps go old school and simplify Reefing and reduce the dependency on expensive equipment requiring constant maintenance vs allowing nature to solve itself.

Highly doubt this has been discussed as I haven't seen it and often that no longer used becomes obsolete yet technically not without purpose. Haven't seen a Wet Dry since the 90s and skimmers have prevailed yet should they continue?

Curious what am I missing that continues support for skimmers if producing nitrates and phosphates no longer a concern since we have remedies to remove that which skimming would physically remove. Fact is one could use products such as Purigen to trap organics before breaking down and to an extent replace the functionality provided by mechanical removal. Still a maintenance chore yet something easily resolve less frequently and can be refreshed with bleach.

One of my biggest negatives with skimmers being loss of salinity due to creep and the constant maintenance to keep it functioning unless one then spends more money to enlist more equipment such as automatic neck cleaners. Trying to keep it simple then becomes futile.

Old School plus New Tech meets cheaper and less manual intensive Reefing

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What do you want the wet dry to accomplish? They aren’t much of an organic reduction method. They were intended to remove ammonia, but I don’t think that’s a benefit in a reef tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’d use a skimmer for aeration even if it did nothing else.

 

[GARRIGA]

I’d use a skimmer for aeration even if it did nothing else.

Understood but didn't the dripping of water over Bio-Balls not also accomplish that function?

 

[Garf]

Key to the Berlin Method was mechanically removing organics prior to breaking down and why Wet Dry were named nitrate factories as well as replacing the gas exchange lost from dripping water through media such as Bio-Balls. Fast forward to the advances in understanding the affects of carbon dosing and items such as GFO and now we have the option to perhaps go old school and simplify Reefing and reduce the dependency on expensive equipment requiring constant maintenance vs allowing nature to solve itself.

Highly doubt this has been discussed as I haven't seen it and often that no longer used becomes obsolete yet technically not without purpose. Haven't seen a Wet Dry since the 90s and skimmers have prevailed yet should they continue?

Curious what am I missing that continues support for skimmers if producing nitrates and phosphates no longer a concern since we have remedies to remove that which skimming would physically remove. Fact is one could use products such as Purigen to trap organics before breaking down and to an extent replace the functionality provided by mechanical removal. Still a maintenance chore yet something easily resolve less frequently and can be refreshed with bleach.

One of my biggest negatives with skimmers being loss of salinity due to creep and the constant maintenance to keep it functioning unless one then spends more money to enlist more equipment such as automatic neck cleaners. Trying to keep it simple then becomes futile.

Old School plus New Tech meets cheaper and less manual intensive Reefing

When I removed my skimmer I replaced it with a bag of bioballs aerated from underneath. "Skimmate" on the sump surface persisted for a few weeks, then stopped. I left the balls in for a while, then removed them, no issues. In my sump I now have aeration, heaters, return pump and a bag of sand. My display rock is non porous, tank is bare bottom. Lots of flow, but could do with more light.

 

[GARRIGA]

When I removed my skimmer I replaced it with a bag of bioballs aerated from underneath. "Skimmate" on the sump surface persisted for a few weeks, then stopped. I left the balls in for a while, then removed them, no issues. In my sump I now have aeration, heaters, return pump and a bag of sand. My display rock is non porous, tank is bare bottom. Lots of flow, but could do with more light.

Trying to visualize this adaptation.

When you state aerated from beneath are you talking about adding media to the skimmer yet remove the function of collecting skimmate?

 

[Garf]

Trying to visualize this adaptation.

When you state aerated from beneath are you talking about adding media to the skimmer yet remove the function of collecting skimmate?

Big bag of bioballs suspended above a big airstone, in the sump.

 

[GARRIGA]

Big bag of bioballs suspended above a big airstone, in the sump.

Got it. Makes sense that would handle gas exchange.

My main thought process is enhanced aeration without the complexity of skimming and this might just be simpler than adding a drip tray above a box of bio balls.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Understood but didn't the dripping of water over Bio-Balls not also accomplish that function?

Might have, depending on how air was flowed into it.

 

[GARRIGA]

What do you want the wet dry to accomplish? They aren’t much of an organic reduction method. They were intended to remove ammonia, but I don’t think that’s a benefit in a reef tank.

Simplify reefing by reducing the reliance on equipment and mechanical maintenance.

Granted a mature reef tank can handle bulk of the ammonia added but not all start that way and without mechanical removal of organics or via biological means then ammonia would likely not be solved.

 

[GARRIGA]

Might have, depending on how air was flowed into it.

Typical drip tray over a box of bio balls. Don't recall any tank using them (including central systems at stores and wholesalers) ever having measurable ammonia or nitrites and yet high levels of nitrates therefore organics were easily processed and back then with buildings being less than air tight don't recall anyone having issues with maintaining pH above 8. Today's side affect from efficient homes due to better windows.

 

[Garf]

Got it. Makes sense that would handle gas exchange.

My main thought process is enhanced aeration without the complexity of skimming and this might just be simpler than adding a drip tray above a box of bio balls.

Appears whatever consumes a lot of these skimmable organics takes a few weeks to catch up when a skimmer is taken out. I removed these balls and saw no difference, so concluded they did nothing. Currently got a large air stone and a small skimmer pump (no collection cup) for aeration.

 

[GARRIGA]

Appears whatever consumes a lot of these skimmable organics takes a few weeks to catch up when a skimmer is taken out. I removed these balls and saw no difference, so concluded they did nothing. Currently got a large air stone and a small skimmer pump (no collection cup) for aeration.

Yes your approach works for aeration but doesn't solve organic decomposition or removal so it appears you're solving latter via perhaps other mechanical means and/or corals?

I'm speaking of going back to basics and using enhanced applications such as carbon dosing to solve the one item Wet Dry didn't being nitrates and today the concern with phosphates. Don't recall any being concerned with po4 in the 80s. At least not in the circles I frequented and lacking internet probably something not often discussed outside of reef specifics articles.

Have considered adding a chamber solely for the purpose of replacing the aeration from a skimmer to make the sump area more efficient as to use of space but didn't occur to me to load with media and perhaps solve both gas exchange via small bubbles as well as using the media to further enhance gas exchange yet solve biological as a dual function.

Did you notice an affect on pH with and without the bio balls? No change would imply gas exchange likely not increased at least as to stripping co2 from the water.

 

[Solo McReefer]

They were intended to remove ammonia, but I don’t think that’s a benefit in a reef tank.

I don't remember really testing back then

Until I got my Octopus monitor

I think I strip tested or API testing in the beginning, then gave them because they were stupid inaccurate(the color chart ones, not titration)

But they had to have worked for something, until we started using live rock. I used what was called "base rock" back then. My first tank crash was temperature related, not from pollution. Had crushed coral and shell substrate too, which was popular for a while

I couldn't afford protein skimmers back then, they were pricey

 

[Garf]

Did you notice an affect on pH with and without the bio balls? No change would imply gas exchange likely not increased at least as to stripping co2 from the water.

I think I was messing about with a DIY CO2 reducing bubbly thing at around that time so I don't recall anything significant, sorry.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Simplify reefing by reducing the reliance on equipment and mechanical maintenance.

Granted a mature reef tank can handle bulk of the ammonia added but not all start that way and without mechanical removal of organics or via biological means then ammonia would likely not be solved.

I’m not sure what you are suggesting will be anywhere near as useful as a skimmer, but since some folks run skimmerless systems, it can certainly work out.

 

[GARRIGA]

I’m not sure what you are suggesting will be anywhere near as useful as a skimmer, but since some folks run skimmerless systems, it can certainly work out.

Perhaps how I should ask it then is what benefit then does the skimmer provide over the simplicity of running a wet dry which seems to solve aeration plus perform nitrification along with dosing carbon to solve nitrates without the maintenance or expense of adding a skimmer.

Were gas exchange the remaining benefit of a skimmer then perhaps aerating bio balls plus dosing carbon might provide a cheaper, less maintenance intensive and more efficient use of space

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think export of dissolved and particulate organics as well as whole bacteria can be a significant benefit.

 

[Solo McReefer]

I think export of dissolved and particulate organics as well as whole bacteria can be a significant benefit.

I think it's pretty evident when you look at and smell a skimmer cup

When I ask myself, "Do I need a skimmer? Do I want that in my water?"

What the answers are

Thus I put the largest skimmer that will fit

 

[GARRIGA]

I think export of dissolved and particulate organics as well as whole bacteria can be a significant benefit.

I get that but my point being were nitrification and denitrification able to solve waste effectively as skimming then would the wet dry provide equal gas exchange?

Not all want the added expense of skimming and maintenance required as well as having to fuss with salinity.