What am I dealing with?

[Lepppard]

Hi everyone,

My first post here! Wish it was a better one honestly haha but this is part of the fun. I posted this on Reddit and was pointed over here.

This is all over the sand bed, I've turned just the whites on to get a picture. I thought it was dinos because my nutrients are on the lower side, but perhaps it's not, I can't see bubbles in it. It is a bit thready, sort of waves in the flow a bit. I also have algae on the glass, looks green when I scrape it and blows into the water column looking smoky when it comes off the glass. It's not hairy at all. Are they related? I thought it was dinos so the past few days I've been stirring the sand bed and basting the rocks, then "dosing" reefroids after lights out to bump my nutrients up, waiting 5ish mins and then dosing some microbacter7 but I've seen no increase in phos or nitrates, and the algae comes back almost immediately the next day. If I remove that algae from the glass it comes back in a few hours. I'm starting to think it's diatoms rather than dinos but I'm no expert. What's the best course of action here? Should I continue to dirty up the water or am I just feeding this algae? I haven't done a water change in 2 weeks in an attempt to raise the nutrients but I haven't seen a change. Presumably thats because the algae is consuming it.

Red Sea reefer 170, reefLED 90 with 80% blue 40%whites on a 10 hour uptime.
Tank is about 8 months old, about 12 bits of coral in there, 4 fish and a decent clean up crew of snails and hermits.
Phosphate 0.03ppm
Nitrate 2.5ppm

 

[Timfish]

Doesn't matter what kind of nuisance algae I run into siphoning it off with steel straws is the first thing I do. Any sand that gets siphoned off I'll rinse initially in fresh water and dump it back in. Alternately, depending on how fast it comes back I'll soak the sand in H2O2, rinse in fresh water and return it or rinse in aquarium water and return it to the system. Which way works best seems to depend to some degree on the maturity of the system and what all is in the sand bed helping algae grow.

 

[EnterName]

The tank is "already" 8 months old but I'm still going to ask just in case: has the tank already gone through the "ugly phase" (diatoms followed by green hair algae)? If not, welcome to the ugly phase.

If you already had diatoms before and this brown stuff is new, it is probably diatoms and/or dinoflagellates. To avoid diatoms you simply need to ensure your RO/DI water is sufficiently de-ionized. The ion exchange resin in the DI unit needs to be replaced regularly as it will deplete quite fast compared to the other components of the RO system. The best way to check if the water is sufficiently de-ionized is to use a TDS meter or pure water tester/electric conductivity meter. 0ppm TDS or 0µS/cm is what you are looking for in your RO/DI. There are some test kits for SiO₂/SiO₄ but their detection range isn't really that good, so an ICP test would be better (but expensive).

If you don't think it is your RO/DI water it is more likely dinoflagellates. In that case a microscope image helps with the proper identification of the species, which can be crucial to the treatment. However, your tank is only 8 months old and within the first year dinoflagellate outbreaks are fairly common and not necessary something to worry about.

You can think about dosing nutrients, as yours are pretty low. I recommend DIY phoshate dosing and DIY ammonia dosing, but if you can't seem to get nitrates towards 5 or 10ppm you can go with DIY nitrate dosing, as you can dose far more nitrate at once than ammonia.

 

[Lepppard]

The tank is "already" 8 months old but I'm still going to ask just in case: has the tank already gone through the "ugly phase" (diatoms followed by green hair algae)? If not, welcome to the ugly phase.

If you already had diatoms before and this brown stuff is new, it is probably diatoms and/or dinoflagellates. To avoid diatoms you simply need to ensure your RO/DI water is sufficiently de-ionized. The ion exchange resin in the DI unit needs to be replaced regularly as it will deplete quite fast compared to the other components of the RO system. The best way to check if the water is sufficiently de-ionized is to use a TDS meter or pure water tester/electric conductivity meter. 0ppm TDS or 0µS/cm is what you are looking for in your RO/DI. There are some test kits for SiO₂/SiO₄ but their detection range isn't really that good, so an ICP test would be better (but expensive).

If you don't think it is your RO/DI water it is more likely dinoflagellates. In that case a microscope image helps with the proper identification of the species, which can be crucial to the treatment. However, your tank is only 8 months old and within the first year dinoflagellate outbreaks are fairly common and not necessary something to worry about.

You can think about dosing nutrients, as yours are pretty low. I recommend DIY phoshate dosing and DIY ammonia dosing, but if you can't seem to get nitrates towards 5 or 10ppm you can go with DIY nitrate dosing, as you can dose far more nitrate at once than ammonia.

I think this might be my ugly phase. I got through 3 or 4 months with no algae at all,

RO/DI water is perfect, 0 tds. I make it myself. I have measured for silicates with a salifert test, it says 0.1ppm.

I'll continue with the reef roids and microbacter7 process every evening and see what impact it has if any.
As my tank is still relatively new and this could be the ugly stage, is this likely to balance itself out with time and consistency?

 

[EnterName]

The tank is "already" 8 months old but I'm still going to ask just in case: has the tank already gone through the "ugly phase" (diatoms followed by green hair algae)? If not, welcome to the ugly phase.

If you already had diatoms before and this brown stuff is new, it is probably diatoms and/or dinoflagellates. To avoid diatoms you simply need to ensure your RO/DI water is sufficiently de-ionized. The ion exchange resin in the DI unit needs to be replaced regularly as it will deplete quite fast compared to the other components of the RO system. The best way to check if the water is sufficiently de-ionized is to use a TDS meter or pure water tester/electric conductivity meter. 0ppm TDS or 0µS/cm is what you are looking for in your RO/DI. There are some test kits for SiO₂/SiO₄ but their detection range isn't really that good, so an ICP test would be better (but expensive).

If you don't think it is your RO/DI water it is more likely dinoflagellates. In that case a microscope image helps with the proper identification of the species, which can be crucial to the treatment. However, your tank is only 8 months old and within the first year dinoflagellate outbreaks are fairly common and not necessary something to worry about.

You can think about dosing nutrients, as yours are pretty low. I recommend DIY phoshate dosing and DIY ammonia dosing, but if you can't seem to get nitrates towards 5 or 10ppm you can go with DIY nitrate dosing, as you can dose far more nitrate at once than ammonia.

I think this might be my ugly phase. I got through 3 or 4 months with no algae at all,

RO/DI water is perfect, 0 tds. I make it myself. I have measured for silicates with a salifert test, it says 0.1ppm.

I'll continue with the reef roids and microbacter7 process every evening and see what impact it has if any.
As my tank is still relatively new and this could be the ugly stage, is this likely to balance itself out with time and consistency?

The salifert test kit should bottom out (0.0ppm) when measuring silicates. 0.1ppm isn't too bad but it can cause quite some diatom growth in young tanks.

Which TDS meter are you using and when did you last calibrate it?

If it is the ugly phase it will sort itself out as long as there isn't some silicate source which keeps feeding diatoms. It is also possible to experience dinoflagellate growth at the same time which will also sort itself out once the excessive algae growth stops.

I don't think microbacter7 or reef roids are doing much besides feeding algae right now. Bottled bacteria products are containing lots of nutrients and if they are actually helping is controversial at best (https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/2-8-bacteria-in-a-bottle/). Reef roids will accumulate and release nutrients as well. Doesn't sound too bad in a low nutrient tank but as long as there is this much growth NO3 and PO4 tests might be "lying" and there are far more nutrients in the system even though they are currently bound to algae.

It all comes down to whether it's dinoflagellates, diatoms, or both.

 

[imblue]

You should get a tang or two, I haven’t had algae problems last very long if there’s a tang in the tank lol I use to move my blue eyed tang around before things balanced out

 

[slingfox]

That definitely looks like Dino’s. As recommended above, you should siphon out whatever you can. You may need to do this every day or every few days. If you don’t have a UV, you may want to look into getting one since UV helps with Dino’s. Continue to dose bacteria. Microbacter7 is okay but MicrobeLifr Special Blend is more effective at combating Dino’s, can be purchased at Petco, and is cheaper. I would also recommend dosing silicates. One other thing that has worked for me is to hang large sheets of filter floss on the aquarium glass. The Dino’s like to settle in the floss which you can pull out and rinse 1-2 times a day.

If you are dosing ReefRoids, does that mean both you phosphate and nitrate level is too low?

 

[EnterName]

You should get a tang or two, I haven’t had algae problems last very long if there’s a tang in the tank lol I use to move my blue eyed tang around before things balanced out

I mean, I get why you suggest something that eats algae, but a tang or two in 170L/45gal?

 

[EnterName]

That definitely looks like Dino’s. As recommended above, you should siphon out whatever you can. You may need to do this every day or every few days. If you don’t have a UV, you may want to look into getting one since UV helps with Dino’s. Continue to dose bacteria. Microbacter7 is okay but MicrobeLifr Special Blend is more effective at combating Dino’s, can be purchased at Petco, and is cheaper. I would also recommend dosing silicates. One other thing that has worked for me is to hang large sheets of filter floss on the aquarium glass. The Dino’s like to settle in the floss which you can pull out and rinse 1-2 times a day.

If you are dosing ReefRoids, does that mean both you phosphate and nitrate level is too low?

According to OP:
Phosphate 0.03ppm
Nitrate 2.5ppm

But OP has detectable silicate levels and didn't have a diatom outbreak (ugly phase) yet, so silicate dosing (while effective against many dinoflagellate species) might currently worsen the issue. Once OP has verified it's surely not diatoms, silicate dosing would make sense again.

 

[slingfox]

According to OP:
Phosphate 0.03ppm
Nitrate 2.5ppm

But OP has detectable silicate levels and didn't have a diatom outbreak (ugly phase) yet, so silicate dosing (while effective against many dinoflagellate species) might currently worsen the issue. Once OP has verified it's surely not diatoms, silicate dosing would make sense again.

Ah, I see the parameters in the OP now. With those levels, I don’t think dosing is necessary. The pictures definitely look like Dino’s but would be helpful to check with a microscope.

 

[Lepppard]

According to OP:
Phosphate 0.03ppm
Nitrate 2.5ppm

But OP has detectable silicate levels and didn't have a diatom outbreak (ugly phase) yet, so silicate dosing (while effective against many dinoflagellate species) might currently worsen the issue. Once OP has verified it's surely not diatoms, silicate dosing would make sense again.

Phosphate 0.1ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
That's from tests this morning.

One thing I will note is that since I've been adding reef roids/microbacter7 the algae definitely returns quicker.
I did a water change yesterday, siphoned as much out as I could and it didn't come back after a couple of hours, and it didn't return in the night, except a couple of very small patches. Would that imply diatoms?

I also did the "jar test" and it didn't clump together and form snotty structures so that would also imply diatoms.

I lost a fish yesterday unfortunately. A dwarf hi fin parrot. I think perhaps the lack of water changes and then dosing with reef roids caused some imbalances that it was sensitive to.

 

[slingfox]

Phosphate 0.1ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
That's from tests this morning.

One thing I will note is that since I've been adding reef roids/microbacter7 the algae definitely returns quicker.
I did a water change yesterday, siphoned as much out as I could and it didn't come back after a couple of hours, and it didn't return in the night, except a couple of very small patches. Would that imply diatoms?

I also did the "jar test" and it didn't clump together and form snotty structures so that would also imply diatoms.

I lost a fish yesterday unfortunately. A dwarf hi fin parrot. I think perhaps the lack of water changes and then dosing with reef roids caused some imbalances that it was sensitive to.

I am pretty sure you have Dino’s. Diatoms don’t typically look like what you show in the picture. With nitrate and phosphate at those levels you don’t need to dose ReefRoids anymore. To raise phosphate and nitrate ( or needed anymore) dosing the straight chemical is much cleaner and predictable than over feeding.

 

[EnterName]

Phosphate 0.1ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
That's from tests this morning.

One thing I will note is that since I've been adding reef roids/microbacter7 the algae definitely returns quicker.
I did a water change yesterday, siphoned as much out as I could and it didn't come back after a couple of hours, and it didn't return in the night, except a couple of very small patches. Would that imply diatoms?

I also did the "jar test" and it didn't clump together and form snotty structures so that would also imply diatoms.

I lost a fish yesterday unfortunately. A dwarf hi fin parrot. I think perhaps the lack of water changes and then dosing with reef roids caused some imbalances that it was sensitive to.

I expect both (diatoms and dinoflagellates) to be present, which is quite common.

You have readable (but unstable) nutrient levels even though there is so much active growth, which might indicate nutrients are in reality quite high and adding reef roids isn't helping right now.

The tank is quite young, so I don't really think you need to do much besides making absolutely sure there are no silicates in your RO/DI water. Everything else might sort itself out in a few weeks or months.

If the problem persists you can try silicate dosing, but it makes sense to identify what exactly you are dealing with using a microscope first.
You nutrient levels should drop to 0ppm in the mean time, which at least lets you know that you aren't still overfeeding. You can increase them with a DIY phosphate and DIY ammonia solution instead of building up detritus with reef roids which could cause issues once the diatom/dino growth stops. If the consumption is too large for safe ammonia dosing you can try nitrate dosing instead.

There is an interesting study from 2021 showing that even in high silicate and nutrient environments it is possible that dinoflagellates outperform diatoms (depending on species and various other factors). Of course you can't simply apply this study to reef tanks but it shows why silicate dosing might not always work as expected.

 

[Bruttall]

Reef Roids is a great source of PO4, I mean GREAT SOURCE!! Benepet Benereef is a much better product, and the daily roids is driving that algae IMO.

Check me if I am wrong, but that algae bloom would be eating PO4 out of the water column, so it could be influencing your test results, which is why you notice that algae growing more since you started adding the roids but not a large change in your tests.

Bacteria in a Bottle, in my opinion, is snake oil. Bacteria, like most things that I know of that help a reef tank, need Oxygen, and some Light to grow/live. How long has that "bacteria" been "suspended" dead in that bottle on a Shelf in a box, without any air or light?

I used MB7 for a year, every week, doing a coral snow treatment in my tank and never noticed a difference when I stopped doing it for the next 2 years.


my 2 cents.