What happened to the hobby?

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MnFish1

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Monopolies, industry collusion, price gouging, government subsidy.
However both of your examples are excellent, regulated industries and price fixing(however you define it).

Let all of us know how this applies. I think you’re completely incorrect. There has to collusion. Do you think zzz corals is telling yyy and xxx corals to set the price for a certain frag at whatever lok. it’s ridiculous. Imo
 

NotASpammerDude

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Let all of us know how this applies. I think you’re completely incorrect. There has to collusion. Do you think zzz corals is telling yyy and xxx corals to set the price for a certain frag at whatever lok. it’s ridiculous. Imo
You let us know how it doesn't apply. See how we can play this game?
 

MnFish1

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You let us know how it doesn't apply. See how we can play this game?
Its not a 'game' - I have no clue what you mean.

IN order for there to be a monopoly - or price fixing, etc - company A has be acting with Company B - or D or E or F -to fix to prices of xxxxx coral. Is this happening? do you know that is whats happening in the coral market.....

See - this game is played using facts not ridiculous conspiracy theories with no evidence. Note - I'mnot saying you're 'wrong' - its just that you have provided no evidence that - for example - all the sellers of Walt Disney xxxx Pink special desire have colluded to set the price - and if they havent - there is no immorality, there is no wrongdoing - and people who continuously whine about prices - are merely whining about how markets work
 

NotASpammerDude

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Its not a 'game' - I have no clue what you mean.

IN order for there to be a monopoly - or price fixing, etc - company A has be acting with Company B - or D or E or F -to fix to prices of xxxxx coral. Is this happening? do you know that is whats happening in the coral market.....

See - this game is played using facts not ridiculous conspiracy theories with no evidence. Note - I'mnot saying you're 'wrong' - its just that you have provided no evidence that - for example - all the sellers of Walt Disney xxxx Pink special desire have colluded to set the price - and if they havent - there is no immorality, there is no wrongdoing - and people who continuously whine about prices - are merely whining about how markets work
Who is the one here asserting there is a "ridiculous conspiracy theory without evidence." You need to quote exactly to what you are referring otherwise one might fear you are putting words in our mouths.
 

MnFish1

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Who is the one here asserting there is a "ridiculous conspiracy theory without evidence." You need to quote exactly to what you are referring otherwise one might fear you are putting words in our mouths.
Actually - with all due respect-I don't need to post to yoru standards. If you have a specific question - feel free to ask but what you said above is so vague - that I'm not inclined to go back through the thread to try to decipher what you mean - and frankly - I dont care in all honesty. Good Luck going forward. To phrase it again - I do not think coral sellers are doing anything wrong - they are posting prices and they think they can sell coral at those prices - good for them. I wouldn't buy them - and - frankly - given the differences in the corals shown I wouldnt ever pay the prices asked. Hopefully that explains it.
 
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MnFish1

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Who is the one here asserting there is a "ridiculous conspiracy theory without evidence." You need to quote exactly to what you are referring otherwise one might fear you are putting words in our mouths.
I'm curious (By the way calling someone clueless seems a bit strong)- but - besides regulated industries or examples of price fixing - can you give an example of where supply and demand does NOT dictate prices?
Never got an answer to the question above:)

Monopolies, industry collusion, price gouging, government subsidy.
However both of your examples are excellent, regulated industries and price fixing(however you define it).
But - none of the coral sellers mentioned here (you really haven't mentioned any operate this way -

Im serious sorry -I dont get your drift/meaning in this thread.
 
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High end corals and fish have always exist, but I'm not asking about those, I was asking about regular corals that you use to get even free, and now they cost hundreds of dollars.

I don't care paying the asking price of a coral or fish I like, but the new prices or regular corals that are available in a lot of tanks is a joke.

People asking $50 bucks for a xenia frag, when a few years back, people throw it in the trash.

I know you can still get cheap corals locally, with friends, or even what we use to do, buy expensive corals between friends, put it in the tank with more grow and frag later.
 

Brew12

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High end corals and fish have always exist, but I'm not asking about those, I was asking about regular corals that you use to get even free, and now they cost hundreds of dollars.

I don't care paying the asking price of a coral or fish I like, but the new prices or regular corals that are available in a lot of tanks is a joke.

People asking $50 bucks for a xenia frag, when a few years back, people throw it in the trash.

I know you can still get cheap corals locally, with friends, or even what we use to do, buy expensive corals between friends, put it in the tank with more grow and frag later.
I also think it can be at least partially tied to the lower participation in reef clubs. Local swaps and trading has become less common. When shopping online, $50 for a green slimer looks pretty good compared to $250 for a Walt Disney, and the green slimer may even look better than the WD in a more white colored tank. This is what I meant by an earlier comment about higher end frags pulling up the value of common frags.
I also think in a few more years this new wave of acros that shine under actinic LED's will have supply catch up with demand and the prices come right in line with other acros. Maybe even go lower since not all reefers run heavy on the blues.
 
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Dkeller_nc

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Perhaps. But I kind of doubt it - as soon as sufficient time passes such that reasonably fast growing corals like acropora tenius with silly names become quite common, then a new clade of the same thing will have a silly name applied to it, and be sold for hundreds of dollars for 1/2" frags.

I'm actually highly amused by this whole discussion. Unless you're an absolute newb with little knowledge about the big picture of coral vendors and what they have, you really have to willfully ignore the evidence to declare that all coral is now a matter of paying mucho dollars for 1/2" frags. There are LOTS of places to buy from to avoid buying frags altogether, and I posted a couple of examples.

But the funniest thing about these threads is that the folks that are participating seem to willfully ignore the evidence in front of them that others provide. I do very much get the impression that the complaint is that they can't buy a "Dragon Soul Torch" for $50. Well, that's a ridiculous complaint. You may not be able to buy something called a "Dragon Soul Torch" (easily one of the goofiest names for a coral, ever), but you can dang sure buy a euphyllia glabrescens for $100.

It's flat-out false to state that all of the coral prices are out of sight, and out of the reach of beginners. And the evidence for that falsehood is a few clicks away on the 'net. The bottom line is: do not buy named corals, and don't buy frags from on-line sellers. Simple, and a lot more wallet-friendly.
 

MnFish1

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High end corals and fish have always exist, but I'm not asking about those, I was asking about regular corals that you use to get even free, and now they cost hundreds of dollars.

I don't care paying the asking price of a coral or fish I like, but the new prices or regular corals that are available in a lot of tanks is a joke.

People asking $50 bucks for a xenia frag, when a few years back, people throw it in the trash.

I know you can still get cheap corals locally, with friends, or even what we use to do, buy expensive corals between friends, put it in the tank with more grow and frag later.
Anyone can 'ask' any price they want - like the people asking 12,000 for a princess Diana beanie babie. They will never get that price - and that 'ask' does not reflect the 'market' for beanie babies.
 

sde1500

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When shopping online, $50 for a green slimer looks pretty good compared to $250 for a Walt Disney, and the green slimer may even look better than the WD in a more white colored tank. This is what I meant by an earlier comment about higher end frags pulling up the value of common frags.
Focusing on the green slimer, $50 is high sure. But one simple google search brings me to sides that show prices from $15 all the way to $54. I think that is one thing many people here are missing. They bang on about high prices, and marketing and deception and insane prices by vendors. But we're talking about the internet here. Which is practically unlimited access to more information than anyone in history could have ever dreamed about having. By the nature of the site, all the vendors here are online vendors, they may have a local footprint as well. Because of that, we have access to their prices. And consumers have the ability to shop around. There clearly is not collusion, it clearly is a free market.

There is certainly good marketing involved with some vendors. This near daily pounding on prices is ridiculous. Of course the higher end is insane, and I'm sure some don't have access to some LFS. But most LFS have all the basic corals you could want or need. Shipping is a problem, xenia grows like weeds sure. But who would pay $50 to ship a $10 coral? That is a massive limiting factor that people are ignoring too.
 

Joedubyk

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Focusing on the green slimer, $50 is high sure. But one simple google search brings me to sides that show prices from $15 all the way to $54. I think that is one thing many people here are missing. They bang on about high prices, and marketing and deception and insane prices by vendors. But we're talking about the internet here. Which is practically unlimited access to more information than anyone in history could have ever dreamed about having. By the nature of the site, all the vendors here are online vendors, they may have a local footprint as well. Because of that, we have access to their prices. And consumers have the ability to shop around. There clearly is not collusion, it clearly is a free market.

There is certainly good marketing involved with some vendors. This near daily pounding on prices is ridiculous. Of course the higher end is insane, and I'm sure some don't have access to some LFS. But most LFS have all the basic corals you could want or need. Shipping is a problem, xenia grows like weeds sure. But who would pay $50 to ship a $10 coral? That is a massive limiting factor that people are ignoring too.
EXCATLY
 

ca1ore

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Focusing on the green slimer, $50 is high sure.
Indeed, I give green slimer frags away to anyone willing to make the trip to my house (I don't ship - too much hassle). Otherwise it either fills my frag tank or gets thrown out, which I hate to do.
 
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Joedubyk

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Let all of us know how this applies. I think you’re completely incorrect. There has to collusion. Do you think zzz corals is telling yyy and xxx corals to set the price for a certain frag at whatever lok. it’s ridiculous. Imo
And there is no government subsidy on corals or vendor collusion. I can see why he didn't want to try explaining it to me and just say I'm wrong and clueless.
 

Joedubyk

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Indeed, I give green slimer frags away to anyone willing to make the trip to my house (I don't ship - too much hassle). Otherwise it either fills my frag tank or gets thrown out, which I hate to do.
Green Slimer has been around foreeeever and is super hardy. This is perfect example of supply/demand. There's ton of supply and limited demand seeing as a lot of folks have it , and nor is it the most striking coral on the market. That is nice of you to give it our for free to other hobbyists.
 

Halal Hotdog

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One thing I find interesting is people spend large amounts on frags expecting every little piece to survive long term. As all of us know your system will dictate what will survive and what will not, not everything will survive long term. Personally I don't buy online corals, way too much headache with doctored pictures and sky high prices. I have a core group of local people I buy/trade with and we are each others insurance policy. If one tanks crashes then we can help rebuild because we have all the corals from his original setup. Local clubs are definitely the best way to acquire corals.
 
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