What is a healthy fish?

Paul B

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Which I think does work in Europe, but is a risky strategy to employ here in America given how disease polluted the supply chain currently is. Especially for newbies with young aquariums.
I didn't realize Noobs in America had so much disease. :p

How is the proliferation of captive bred fish going to impact their disease resistance?
I haven't found any research at all into this.
First off, very few fish are captive bred just yet. They are much cheaper to collect than raise especially for the meat of the hobby like tangs, angels and butterflies which scatter eggs and need much more room and the fry needs to live near the surface with the plankton for a while.

But besides that, I believe some day all fish will be captive raised as it is simple as long as you have access to the sea and a lot of money and time.

I myself could raise copperband butterflies, achiles tangs, moorish Idols and whale sharks if a Government would give me access to a deserted South Pacific Island of which I have seen dozens of.

But that ain't gonna happen so for now at least, we need to go to a LFS.

But If and when we get captive raised fish there is no need for them to be sterile or quarantined.
Un-quarantined fish are healthier anyway and would have an easier time spawning. I am not even sure if a quarantined fishes spawn will be able to grow to adulthood because the fry gets it's immunity from it's Mother and if she has an impaired or no immune system, neither will the offspring.

Very few people on here, if any, ever spawned a fully quarantined fish "and raised" it. I really doubt a quarantined "and" medicated fish can spawn and be raised. At least I never heard of even one but I could be wrong. A fish fry is in great danger of dying from disease because the immunity it inherits is not really complete or strong so it needs to eat right away and get it's stomach flora healthy. It is not going to do that eating sterile quarantined food. It needs living rotifers, then copepods, then amphipods until it can catch and eat smaller fish. Stomach bacteria, parasites and all.

So I believe when we start selling captive raised fish, they will be complete fish with a working immune system like they have in nature. Those fish will also be immune fish.
As long as captive fish are eating natural "living" foods with living bacteria they will be fine and if we raise them in the sea in pens or screened areas, they will have no problem as they will be in association with pathogens and parasites. (I had on spell check and it added "Parakeets" ;Bucktooth)

If we raise them in tanks, then those tanks should also have pathogens and parasites happily living in there just like fish are supposed to live. Like I keep my tanks. If those tanks could get unfiltered seawater, that would help a lot.

Remember quarantine is not normal or natural. I don't see why we would want to try to raise such creatures when it is cheaper and healthier to raise fish as they are already living in the sea.

My paired fish all spawn and in the distant past I raised some of them. The babies were also immune. I raised clownfish, seahorses, bangai cardinals, blue devils and probably some I forgot because I have not done that in decades. :D

I collected these seahorses in the sea near my house. The female is transfering the eggs to the male here in my reef. I raised these many times, no problem and no disease

 
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MnFish1

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Very few people on here, if any, ever spawned a fully quarantined fish "and raised" it. I really doubt a quarantined "and" medicated fish can spawn and be raised. At least I never heard of even one but I could be wrong.

Just because people on here do or dont do it shouldn't make a difference - the question I guess I ask is 'what do breeders like @AlgaeBarn and others who breed and raise fish think'. I would hope that they have the science behind what they do.

Just for the sake of clarity - your definition of 'fully quarantined' differs greatly from what others call 'quarantine... So - its hard to tell exactly what you mean.

And you're correct - whatever the mother is immune to - the fry upon hatching have some immunity as there is some transfer of immunity in the egg itself from the mother.
 

Paul B

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I really doubt a quarantined "and" medicated fish can spawn and be raised. At least I never heard of even one but I could be wrong.

To me "fully quarantined means 72 days in quarantine. You know that because you asked me that before and I showed you 5 or 6 posts that I found in two minutes that many people feel that "fully Quarantined" means 72 days.
It also means that fish are kept away from pathogens forever, which you also know as you asked me already.

I also said Medicated, and a lot of people in this thread and other places medicate fish no matter what as soon as they get them. And as you know I totally am against that also. As I told you many times.

'what do breeders like @AlgaeBarn and others who breed and raise fish think'
I have no idea, you have to ask them.
 

MnFish1

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To me "fully quarantined means 72 days in quarantine. You know that because you asked me that before and I showed you 5 or 6 posts that I found in two minutes that many people feel that "fully Quarantined" means 72 days.
It also means that fish are kept away from pathogens forever, which you also know as you asked me already.

I also said Medicated, and a lot of people in this thread and other places medicate fish no matter what as soon as they get them. And as you know I totally am against that also. As I told you many times.



I have no idea, you have to ask them.
Paul- it seems like you are mixing up terms - most people do not quarantine for 72 days. To suggest that because you have found 5 people in 3 minutes out of thousands of posts doesnt make it 'true'. Then there is also the question as to whether people are using medication or not. BTW-I'm not stupid lol -I know I've asked you - but there are lots of other readers that do not know thats 'what you mean' - which is why I asked the question.

As to asking algae barn -I tagged them for that reason- I was asking you since you made the blanket statement that fish that had been quarantined could not be spawned and raised.
I really doubt a quarantined "and" medicated fish can spawn and be raised.
BTW - Imnot sure that 'captive bred fish' would include those raised in sea pens -but its an interesting idea. Most people who are environmentally 'concerned' - would suggest that farmed fish actually cause more problems to the local environment(i.e salmon, etc-due to disease concentration in the penned area) - not saying I disagree with farmed fish - just mentioned it as a 'concern'
 

Lasse

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For the book - my comments about Cherry Picking was not directed against Humblefish at all - I do not think he is one of these members - he can take an argue and argue with facts - we have different opinions that´s all.

I do not want any opposite voice to be silent as long as they discuss with controllable facts - not at all. Without a dissenting voice - all development of our hobby will stop. But when people stop to discuss with reasonable arguments and just try to troll with whatever- then you use fear to have other voices to be silent. If you in a review of 100 articles mention 4 with opposite result and a poster - without source - just quote this 4 in order to backup his/hers owns believe - that´s not acceptable in my world.

IMO; the "long-winded explanations" are counterproductive because most people are going to tune out after the first paragraph or two. I understand everyone has busy lives nowadays, and this is why I try to keep the information I disseminate to the point. (I don't always succeed.)
In my world - to try to give a deeper understanding of complex processes can never be contrerproductive because some will stop reading. Why do we have obligate education at all in that case. It would be much easier if some educated persons write easy following manuals and all we others is forced to follow them.

I try to never ever give any advice to a person over internet - I can´t because to give advice´s to people in biological issues demands that I must do some examinations and use my own eyes and experiences. IMO - what I can do is to try explaining different scenarios and processes ending up giving options how to handle it. Every aquarium is different - but with basic knowledge it is rather easy to see what´s right and what´s wrong by the person him/herself.

As far as mods closing threads when things get too heated, that's just part of forum life. But it is one reason why I'm not on here as much as I used to be. I'll probably take another break soon, so there will be one less voice of opposition for what you are advocating.
There is a huge difference between heated up with arguments that is valid and with a "heating" up with help of trolling, insults and cherry picked argues

Which I think does work in Europe, but is a risky strategy to employ here in America given how disease polluted the supply chain currently is. Especially for newbies with young aquariums.
This statement have always fascinating me. My first reaction to this is why the US do not have the healthiest fish in the world?- one of the only Countries that allow free distribution of all of these wonder products and there is rather common with prophylactic treatment both in the supply chain and privately - And why we in Europe there is not so common with prophylactic treatment have more healthy fishes (according to you).

We take the fishes from the same exporting companies in the coral triangle. Can it be that if the going to the west - the jetlag is not so devastating but if you travel to the east - is it more stressful? :) I do not know but I have always been fascinated of this argument and really just want to know why.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Lasse

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"fully quarantined means 72 days in quarantine
To be honest - Quarantine means 40 days in isolation. From french quarantaine and the Italian word quarantena - meaning 40 days, The expression was created in Venedig - ship that come to the port has to bee at anchor 40 days before it was allowed to get into the port. The method have probably its origin from Dubrovnik during the black Death during the 14:th century.

From the guy with long-winded explanations :D
 
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Lasse

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Most people who are environmentally 'concerned' - would suggest that farmed fish actually cause more problems to the local environment(i.e salmon, etc-due to disease concentration in the penned area) - not saying I disagree with farmed fish - just mentioned it as a 'concern'
As a Norwegian - you know :D

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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This comment is related to one concern I have that could have major implications on hobbyists. How is the proliferation of captive bred fish going to impact their disease resistance?
I haven't found any research at all into this.
I have this concern too.

I really do not know but many fresh water fish is farmed - rather few is wild caught. I know that LFS for freshwater fish i Sweden have had problems to mix fishes from different farms or wholesalers. They do have an immune system but it looks like it is adapted for that farm or wholesaler. If the shops separate the different deliveries during the first 14 - 21 days and slowly mix water (using the same net is a good trick) the mixing of the fishes can be done. This indicate that the mechanisms of immunization is there but it could have been different triggers.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Victoria M

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Posts like yours are what motivate me to keep digging deeper into fish health.

What you saw with your Hippo makes perfect sense. A healthy fish can be a carrier of ich. It's immune system limits the size and reproductive rate of the parasites to make it asymptomatic but it does not completely eradicate it. Odds are some new stressor was introduced a week or two before the ich outbreak. That stressor weakened the immune system of the fish and allowed the parasite to transition from pathogen to disease.


It's not just your personal experience. I posted earlier, but the 2 people in my local area with the worst success keeping fish are ones who do a full prophylactic treatment. Most deaths are either obviously bacterial or they have no outward signs. I had much better luck than they did but I also only used copper or CP regularly and rarely kept a fish in copper or CP more than 8 days. I avoided using Metroplex or General Cure unless it was absolutely necessary. Is that why I had better results? I don't know but I think some studies support it.
I've also posted outside of this thread my results from getting away from prophylactic treatment and it was not without issues. I added fish that I knew came from a system with ich and suspected had velvet. I lost my 6-line wrasse and my Starry Blenny within 3 weeks. I also lost my Convict Tang while I was at MACNA. I know it was because of aggression with my Hippo tang but I can't say for sure that the aggression wasn't triggered by a disease. The 6-line and Blenny were also the only fish that were fully grown when I got them so were likely the oldest fish in my system.
Just like I was honest and documented all my losses in QT I will continue to be honest and report all my losses now that I have transferred away from prophylactic treatment. This part of my reefing journey is still too new to be conclusive.
Man, oh man, @Brew12 your responses are so careful and thoughtful. I admire your style and intelligence.
 
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Brew12

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Victoria M

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LEO- Law Enforcement Officer.

Agree with you, those on PrEP /PEP get labs done every 90days to monitor any complications that might arise, however the pool of people that do have side effects is very small.
I know we don't have the luxury of running labs on fish in QT, can't monitor renal function of the fish while administering treatment etc etc, Its definitely about weighing the risks, and again, in a perfect world TTM would be practical in every application and would be able to eliminate the risk of allowing any pathogen to enter your reef system.
Unfortunately its doesn't always work like that.

I guess it's a to each their own sorta of deal.
Risks vs rewards?
What do you do for a living? Some of those terms just rolled off the keyboard pretty easy? Same name on RC right?
 

Humblefish

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This statement have always fascinating me. My first reaction to this is why the US do not have the healthiest fish in the world?- one of the only Countries that allow free distribution of all of these wonder products and there is rather common with prophylactic treatment both in the supply chain and privately - And why we in Europe there is not so common with prophylactic treatment have more healthy fishes (according to you).

We take the fishes from the same exporting companies in the coral triangle. Can it be that if the going to the west - the jetlag is not so devastating but if you travel to the east - is it more stressful? :) I do not know but I have always been fascinated of this argument and really just want to know why.
Because the aquarium trade is mostly unregulated in the US and is pure profit-driven. There is no other consideration; the animal is just a commodity to be moved down the supply chain as quickly as possible. So if it dies, it does so in the care of the hobbyist after everyone else has made their money off the fish. I've had wholesalers get fish in from collectors, rebag them in clean water, and send them to me the SAME DAY. When was the last time you think that fish ate??

According to YOU (quote below) it is illegal where you live to sell sick fish and the buyer even has a 6 month guarantee. :eek: This is UNHEARD of here, and most LFS owners/online vendors would be in prison and/or go bankrupt if such a law existed in the US.
I would not pay a penny more for special QT fish because there I live it is not legal to sell sick fish. There is a consumer law that say that the first 6 months - it is the seller's responsibility to show that the goods sold did not have any fault at the moment of sale. This also applies to living organisms and disease is considered as original error - if something happens. This make it rather easy to purchase fish if you by from a responible LFS
European wholesalers (that I know) also have a sterilisation program to prevent pathogens from building up in their tanks. Basically, every system is on a "chlorine wipe" schedule every 6-12 months, and fishes are not placed in that particular system until after they've been reseeded with nitrifying bacteria. (The entire process only takes about a week.) I recently learned that the largest US wholesaler has not sterilized any of their main systems since the early 1990s. :eek: Also, I know that at least some European wholesalers hold the fishes for at least 1 week prior to selling and feed high quality foods. In America, you get flake food at the wholesale facility (fish have no idea what that even is).

So, it's not a question of WHY are aquarium fish so much healthier in Europe and why hobbyists over there have a better starting point to QT (or not QT) from... But rather, how do some people in the industry over here sleep at night being so morally bankrupt?? I know whenever I get in a rough looking shipment and can expect to find casualties the next morning, I have a hard time sleeping at night. Thinking maybe I could have done better to save more fish. I do get a chuckle, however, when friends in the hobby from Europe (mainly the UK) come visit me, and they're trying to figure out how to smuggle fish medications back with them. ;) So, things aren't all perfect over there either. But at least they're open & honest with me when they lose fish, have disease issues, etc. I have many American friends who don't QT, and when I visit them & ask what happened to this or that fish I saw last time... You wouldn't believe how many fish they had jump out of the tank since I was there last. :p
 
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Paul B

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Paul- it seems like you are mixing up terms - most people do not quarantine for 72 days. To suggest that because you have found 5 people in 3 minutes out of thousands of posts doesnt make it 'true'.


Humblefish, my good friend said 72 days, (about 500 times) and he is the "quarantine expert" on this forum. I didn't make up 72 days (or 76 days, whatever it is) for quarantine as it is all over this forum and that is all I will respond to that, again.

If you choose to treat in a QT, the DT should be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days.

and in one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts. A theront must find a fish host within 48 hours or it starves to death. So, if you go fallow for 76 days (I add 2 extra days just in case a protomont hasn't fully developed into a tomont yet) that covers all strains of ich which have been studied.
For ich, one strain that was studied took up to 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.
But going fallow for 76 days should protect you from this strain as well.
6 weeks fallow will starve out any disease except sometimes ich. 76 days fallow to be sure of that.
If the sand collected had previously been housed with fish infected with ich, the sand could contain tomonts for up to 76 days.

I could go on forever but I already did this so I will ignore this question in the future. You can argue with Humble with that.

To be honest - Quarantine means 40 days in isolation. From french quarantaine and the Italian word quarantena - meaning 40 days, The expression was created in Venedig - ship that come to the port has to bee at anchor 40 days before it was allowed to get into the port. The method have probably its origin from Dubrovnik during the black Death during the 14:th century.
Lasse, (My other good friend) ;) That maybe great in France, Italy, and even Sweden but I am writing this from Long Island New York, USA and here, many people feel quarantine in regards to fish disease is 72 or 76 days. :p

References:
All of Humblefishes quotes above. :cool:

I don't believe in any of it so for me it is a Moot point. :oops:

If it was illegal to sell sick fish here or if they had to live for a certain number of weeks, most people would be in Jail as a lot of people can't keep fish for a few days. ;Wacky
 

MnFish1

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Humblefish, my good friend said 72 days, (about 500 times) and he is the "quarantine expert" on this forum. I didn't make up 72 days (or 76 days, whatever it is) for quarantine as it is all over this forum and that is all I will respond to that, again.















I could go on forever but I already did this so I will ignore this question in the future. You can argue with Humble with that.



Lasse, (My other good friend) ;) That maybe great in France, Italy, and even Sweden but I am writing this from Long Island New York, USA and here, many people feel quarantine in regards to fish disease is 72 or 76 days. :p

References:
All of Humblefishes quotes above. :cool:

I don't believe in any of it so for me it is a Moot point. :oops:

If it was illegal to sell sick fish here or if they had to live for a certain number of weeks, most people would be in Jail as a lot of people can't keep fish for a few days. ;Wacky
Your mixing up terms - and like multiple people have told you - leaving a tank fallow for 76 days is not the same a quarantining a fish - no matter how many times you want to say it - its simply not true. Perhaps @Humblefish will comment on this specific issue.
 

Lasse

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Lasse, (My other good friend) ;) That maybe great in France, Italy, and even Sweden but I am writing this from Long Island New York, USA and here, many people feel quarantine in regards to fish disease is 72 or 76 days. :p
A -- you mean settantaduana or settantaseiana :p:D:)

Sincerely Lasse
 

Humblefish

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Fallow period to starve Ich out of a DT: 6 weeks or 76 days

In most cases, 6 weeks with no fish is sufficient. However, the 1997 Colorni and Burgess study demonstrated that it can take up 72 days for all theronts to be released from their tomonts. However, this study was done in 68F water, in a sterile flask, and with the aid of antibiotics. So, not a reef like environment. When I asked Dr. Colorni if he thought this phenomenon could be duplicated in a reef environment, he said he couldn't say for sure. So to err on the side of caution, I recommend a 76 day fallow period for Ich. (The extra 4 days accounts for the protomont and theront life stages which the study didn't take into consideration.)

In all likelihood, 76 days fallow is overkill. But the way I see it, what's the harm in 34 extra days? This information is also relevant: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/why-a-fallow-period-will-sometimes-fail.536167/

Quarantine period for new fish: 2 weeks or 30 days

Basically, this is determined by whether you have 1 or 2 QTs to work with. If only 1 QT, it's best to treat with therapeutic copper (or just observe) for 30 days. However, if you can setup a second QT (i.e. observation tank) at least 10 feet away from QT#1 (i.e. treatment tank) then you have this option:

Treat with therapeutic copper for 14 days. During this 14 day period also dose praziquantel + metronidazole 2x, 7 days apart. (There is a medication called API General Cure which contains both prazi + metro.) On Day 15, transfer the fish (and only the fish) into the observation tank. Passively observe (no meds) for at least 2 weeks to ensure any diseases are no longer present.

^^ Unless I get in a bad shipment (e.g. airline delay, ammonia burn, bacterial infections, etc.); I'm having a 90% + success rate following the above treatment protocol.
 
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If there is one thing I hope we can all agree on here, it is the poor state of the hobby at the wholesale level in the US. There is no excuse for their poor maintenance practices. There is no excuse for their poor feeding habits. There is no excuse for their rush to push traumatized fish through their systems. Well, no excuse other than trying to increase profit with minimal effort.

Maybe the worst part is that it is well known that they will work together to blacklist and silence anyone who works to try and change the status quo. If I wanted to try and start a US wholesale business where the systems were disinfected regularly and fish fed and conditioned for a week before shipping, they would ban together and get me blacklisted by suppliers. I would have no one to source fish from.

No matter our views on QT and prophylactic treatment, the truth is that the biggest improvements in fish care need to happen at the wholesale level and that is effectively impossible as it currently stands.
 
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