What is a healthy fish?

Humblefish

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No matter our views on QT and prophylactic treatment, the truth is that the biggest improvements in fish care need to happen at the wholesale level and that is effectively impossible as it currently stands.
As much as I HATE govt. regulation, it's the only answer now. Even if it means the end of our hobby as we know it. When that day finally comes, remember these industry people dug their own grave with their reckless practices.
 
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Brew12

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As much as I HATE govt. regulation, it's the only answer now. Even if it means the end of our hobby as we know it. When that day finally comes, remember these industry people dug their own grave with their reckless practices.
Completely agree. At the risk of sounding political, our government is incompetent on this issue. They are working at shutting down the well managed collection fisheries in Hawaii when the real target should be cleaning up the wholesale industry.
If they don't understand the proper target I have little hope they can come up with effective policy.
 

Lol21

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My fish arre ich free because my tank has no ich.. I did hyposalinity in the main tank for 2 months straight. And it hasnt come back when before it was killing everything i put in.

I bought the fish i wanted.. did hypo and done.. havent bought fish since because i got a full tank.

And yes you can be ich free.. I even rearrange my tank every 4 months or so because i get bored and i can stress the crap out of my tangs and not even a spot.. hense ich free.
 

Paul B

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However, the 1997 Colorni and Burgess study demonstrated that it can take up 72 days for all theronts to be released from their tomonts.
I remember when Those guys wrote that. I disagreed with them then as I do now. :cool:
I never met them and they may be really great party animals. :p
They also came up with that chart, but they failed to learn anything about fish immunity which makes that chart a nice place mat. :)

As much as I HATE govt. regulation, it's the only answer now.
To bad the Pres. don't like fish. If there was "First Fish" in the White House maybe there would be better regulations for us. :D

Man, oh man, @Brew12 your responses are so careful and thoughtful. I admire your style and intelligence.
Victoria, your just saying that because it is true. :)
 

Paul B

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I don't think raising ornamental fish in a sea pen or ponds connected to the sea will pollute as salmon and shrimp ponds do. Food fish are much larger and due to economic reasons are jammed into ponds until they get big.

I feel ornamental fish could be raised in larger ponds and since they eat much less than salmon and the fish are much smaller I don't think it will impact the reef at all. Especially if their food could be collected locally or maybe trapped passively to feed the fish.

I think you could easily raise 1,000 copperbands in a very small pond like 30' across.

But as I said, this would be on an uninhabited pacific Island where the sea and land is not used for anything else except maybe once in a while a Supermodel would go there for a photo shoot. perhaps to advertise Firestone tires or Eggplants.
:oops:

(Don't quote me on that 30" pond, I took a guess) ;Wacky

In the Florida Keys they have huge man made "Ponds" that get fed by the sea to raise and rescue sea turtles.

They get free lighting and water changes but Florida would be to expensive as Humblefish already uses much of the land there for his fish and lounge chair business. :cool:
 
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Humblefish

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They get free lighting and water changes but Florida would be to expensive as Humblefish already uses much of the land there for his fish and lounge chair business. :cool:
Hey, if you come to Florida and want to relax in a lounge chair on the beach you gotta pay! :p
 

Reesj

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I have kept fish for over 25 years(Since kid. 36 now) and have never had a QT tank or methode.
I would love to observe the fish maybe 2-3 days away from DT, maybe if had the facilities to make a proper secondary tank with natural looks.
But would never consider medication as a precaution.
I seriously beleive, people kill soo many fish from precation medications on a QT. Fish that would otherwise do great.

My saltwater tank is quite new(3-4 months) but even in that time I never QT and never had a problem. Even my powder blue tang came stright from divers to a LFS to me and I added it to my tank. It is still doing great after 2 months and even now eat leaf matter home grown. 0 signs of ich or illness.
 

Halal Hotdog

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As much as I HATE govt. regulation, it's the only answer now. Even if it means the end of our hobby as we know it. When that day finally comes, remember these industry people dug their own grave with their reckless practices.

I absolutely agree, the environment they have created is purely about making money regardless of the animals involved. All it would take is someone with a camera to completely ruin the ornamental fish keeping industry for everyone. We can all see what happened to Sea World in lieu of Blackfish. I hope there is a change before a change is mandated, because once that happens everyone will be in a tougher situation.
 

Humblefish

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I absolutely agree, the environment they have created is purely about making money regardless of the animals involved. All it would take is someone with a camera to completely ruin the ornamental fish keeping industry for everyone. We can all see what happened to Sea World in lieu of Blackfish. I hope there is a change before a change is mandated, because once that happens everyone will be in a tougher situation.
And the sad thing is it doesn't have to be this way. They could clean up their act and still remain profitable. I helped a small wholesaler get their house back in order, and yes initially their bottom line took a hit. But 2 years later they are now expanding. I point anyone & everyone to this wholesaler because they provide the best starting point - whether you QT or not. Point is, it can be done.
 
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MnFish1

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And the sad thing is it doesn't have to be this way. They could clean up their act and still remain profitable. I helped a small wholesaler get their house back in order, and yes initially their bottom line took a hit. But 2 years later they are now expanding. I point anyone & everyone to this wholesaler because they provide the best starting point - whether you QT or not. Point is, it can be done.
Did you ever find out if that store uses Prazipro?
 

Humblefish

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OllieNZ

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For those of us interested in boosting gut bacteria, how effective is fresh seafood after it's been frozen? I pick up a couple of lbs of fresh (still live) mussels from the supermarket, shuck, roughly chop, bag and freeze. I then slice wafer thin slices off the frozen block to feed the tank (this gives me good variety of food particle size)
The fish and corals seem to love it but is it actually better than just buying regular frozen foods?
IMG_20191013_113707430.jpg
 
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Brew12

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For those of us interested in boosting gut bacteria, how effective is fresh seafood after it's been frozen? I pick up a couple of lbs of fresh (still live) mussels from the supermarket, shuck, roughly chop, bag and freeze. I then slice wafer thin slices off the frozen block to feed the tank (this gives me good variety of food particle size)
The fish and corals seem to love it but is it actually better than just buying regular frozen foods?
IMG_20191013_113707430.jpg
That is a great question, and one without a clear answer. I've dug into this in the past and found a little information that may or may not apply to beneficial bacteria in live seafood. It was dealing with probiotic bacteria added then frozen. What it showed is that roughly 20% of the bacteria will survive each freezing. So, if it is frozen when caught, that knocks it down to 20%. If you thaw it, process it, and freeze it again, you end up with around 4% of the original bacteria.

There are some methods that can be used to improve survival rates, but I'm not sure how practical that is for a hobbyist.
 

Paul B

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The fish and corals seem to love it but is it actually better than just buying regular frozen foods?
I feel it is. And it also gives me the opportunity to eat it myself. :D
 
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OllieNZ

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That is a great question, and one without a clear answer. I've dug into this in the past and found a little information that may or may not apply to beneficial bacteria in live seafood. It was dealing with probiotic bacteria added then frozen. What it showed is that roughly 20% of the bacteria will survive each freezing. So, if it is frozen when caught, that knocks it down to 20%. If you thaw it, process it, and freeze it again, you end up with around 4% of the original bacteria.

There are some methods that can be used to improve survival rates, but I'm not sure how practical that is for a hobbyist.
It's certainly one that would be good to answer. The stuff I'm getting is all live so I'm doing it's first and only freeze (comes fresh from the mussel farms in Scotland http://aquaculture.scotland.gov.uk/our_aquaculture/types_of_aquaculture/shellfish.aspx ).
Also if you look closely at my pic you'll see the mussels still have a full gut. Probably not the best for human consumption but hopefully of extra benefit to the tank.

I feel it is. And it also gives me the opportunity to eat it myself. :D
Can't argue with that ;)
 

Lasse

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I suppose it is 20 % of each strain that survive - not 20 % of the strains. Most of them - especially the gut bacteria that are anaerobic - will probably start to gain biomass outside the freezer - so around 2 - 3 days - you have the same count again. If you - as I do - always feed with frozen food - even if only 20 % have survived - it is many times more than in dry, artificial food. This part - with natural gut bacteria - have been in focus for some years now according to humans - there is no way that it will be of lesser importance in wild animals.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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Also if you look closely at my pic you'll see the mussels still have a full gut. Probably not the best for human consumption but hopefully of extra benefit to the tank.
Its the way I consume them - with gut and everything. But normally I heat them up first in the own with garlic or in the pot with red wine :)

Sincerely Lasse
 

MnFish1

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That is a great question, and one without a clear answer. I've dug into this in the past and found a little information that may or may not apply to beneficial bacteria in live seafood. It was dealing with probiotic bacteria added then frozen. What it showed is that roughly 20% of the bacteria will survive each freezing. So, if it is frozen when caught, that knocks it down to 20%. If you thaw it, process it, and freeze it again, you end up with around 4% of the original bacteria.

There are some methods that can be used to improve survival rates, but I'm not sure how practical that is for a hobbyist.
The key with bacteria and freezing is that a great percentage (>50%) of bacteria survive freezing. The more times bacteria is frozen and thawed the less likely they are to survive. Ie in a food situation. It is thought that once frozen bacteria enter a type of hibernation (for example - if not - every winter there would be no bacteria in Norway or Sweden. However - in a lab - its different - when first thawed - the bacteria come back like crazy - and if quickly refrozen - there may be resistant ones - etc etc . The answer is - there is no difference between frozen - and fresh fish. It does not need to be 'live' - for the most part. But - for me the question would be - what bacteria are you trying to introduce and whats the rationale? Why not just buy LRS?

 

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