When To Add Live Sand On Fishless Cylce

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SigmaVX

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I have a new tank cycling with a bare bottom because the Microbacter Start noted that the bacteria may compete with bacteria in live sand.

Questions:

1) Is there merit to this claim or is a diverse set of bacteria actually a good thing in the long run?

2) When should one add live sand if there is a bacteria Thunderdome competition?

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lapin

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Bacteria will compete yes.
It will happen as soon as you add the live sand.
I am in belief that having different strains is a good thing.
Thats why adding live rock from the ocean can be good
 

blaxsun

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Well, if you’re talking about the CaribSea live sand - be forewarned that you don’t rinse it and instead add the entire contents directly to the tank. It is messy but usually clears up in a day or so.
 

brandon429

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We have covered adding sand doesn’t impact any cycle, at any stage using any mix of cycling bacteria.



no variation you impart to a cycle is going to stop water bac from doing what water bac does. No amount of pleas will convince yorkie owners we don’t want to hear their barking from a mile away, daily for a decade, even if that’s what dogs do. These things are inevitable in life. :)


nobody can find a single example of a stalled cycle, accurately measured, and link that here. We can find only all inaccurately measured stalled cycle cycles (api, Red Sea, not seneye)

Bacterial competition is every second of the life of a reef tank, starting early doesn’t change that course.
 
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SigmaVX

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Well, if you’re talking about the CaribSea live sand - be forewarned that you don’t rinse it and instead add the entire contents directly to the tank. It is messy but usually clears up in a day or so.
100%....that was my game plan. I had to pay extra for that cloud of goodness :)
 

brandon429

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those claims are untrue from blaxsun above, heres a few that did not clear. you would pre rinse it ideally.
 
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SigmaVX

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We have covered adding sand doesn’t impact any cycle, at any stage using any mix of cycling bacteria.



no variation you impart to a cycle is going to stop water bac from doing what water bac does. No amount of pleas will convince yorkie owners we don’t want to hear their barking from a mile away, daily for a decade, even if that’s what dogs do. These things are inevitable in life. :)


nobody can find a single example of a stalled cycle, accurately measured, and link that here. We can find only all inaccurately measured stalled cycle cycles (api, Red Sea, not seneye)

Bacterial competition is every second of the life of a reef tank, starting early doesn’t change that course.
Thank you for sharing....this is exactly what I was looking for.
 

PhilMStudy

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I wouldn’t say he’s wrong lol if you’re going to pay for live sand and rinse it, don’t buy live sand
 
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brandon429

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here's the final result of pre rinsing live sand marked live, but actually has only grains and water in the bag:


for sure some people skip rinse, we'll hear from a 300 gallon tanker soon that did.

but

if you try and run a thread on non rinsing, about 3/4 of the entrants are mad by page twenty.

consider pre rinsing, how many are mad at pre rinsing above
 

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That’s my point lol if you’re going to pay for their water might as well use it...

I did dry sand and your rinse method for my rdsb and fuge. Saw no difference with “live sand” as far as bacteria cycle went
 

blaxsun

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those claims are untrue from blaxsun above, heres a few that did not clear. you would pre rinse it ideally.
The beneficial bacteria is in the sand along with saltwater, so if you rinse it in tap water you’re basically destroying the entire benefit. And yes, it always clears. CaribSea includes a clarifying packet that you add.

I’ve used both their black Caribbean (easy) and aragonite (hard), and they both cleared up. The black Carribean took a few hours and the aragonite took just under a day and a half.
 

brandon429

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nothing in our huge study thread lines up w that claim though.

it is for sure ok to skip pre rinsing, but nobody can make threads around it and have happy entrants. I agree more have skipped pre rinse than not.


we made that thread to help the thousands of cyclers tired of having wrecked tanks, even 5% of the total non rinsers is a lot of folks wanting a much better way.

there is a price to pay for being hestant about bacteria in a reef tank, see any stuck cycle repeat loop purchase thread, many total invasion takeover threads are the result of impartial actions designed to prevent fearful loss of bacteria (folks will give up every area in their tank to avoid an action that may hurt filter bac, we're trained falsely on what filter bacteria do)

but what does our link show above> total command, zero recycles and for sure no invasions.

the pre rinse step is the first breakaway from retail total control over our bacteria, its the first trust move that makes reef tanks live longer even though it doesnt seem that way at first.

for sure its possible to still reef intently, deliberately with unrinsed initial sand. its just mighty rare :)
 
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blaxsun

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those threads are the result of running studies in live sand in reef tanks vs guessing. here's the final result of pre rinsing live sand marked live, but actually has only grains and water in the bag:


for sure some people skip rinse, we'll hear from a 300 gallon tanker soon that did.

but

if you try and run a thread on non rinsing, about 3/4 of the entrants are mad by page twenty.

consider pre rinsing, how many are mad at pre rinsing above
200 gallons, didn’t rinse. Yeah, it took just over a day to clear, it left a film on everything - but it wasn’t like I wasn’t going to have to clean it at some point anyway.

I guess I don’t get the point of using the more expensive live sand if you’re just going to relegate it to standard substrate by rinsing it and potentially destroying any benefit (however significant that is).

And I’m totally at a loss with your “wrecked tank” comment. Unless I’m missing something, I don’t really see how that’s possible.
 
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brandon429

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in order to know, we'd need to see this thread example ran out to a few pages for patterning by the public


"how to use sand in the reef tank without rinsing, setup, upgrades and relocation moves"

we cant know about sand pattern outcomes by referencing our own tanks, it takes reports from noncompliants to reveal the big picture.


we posted ten reefs above that did not clear like yours did, its right there in post#10. we get told it will clear, but when it doesnt nobody bothers to help or collect ways of prevention.

my sand was just changed this Sunday for all new, in a very old nano. I pre rinsed that way I didnt have to see any degree of clouding, the laser clean setup is all the fun. you get to have a new looking reef with all aged corals and rocks above it, the look is sharp. no cleaning of glass algae for a long time/side benefit of rinsing during bed replacements



our work shows that tap water rinsing a complete sandbed back to clear is ok for a ten year old, $20K sps reef, so its ok for anyone's new nano.

*there is no parameter difference we can measure between pre rinsed and not pre rinsed cycling reefs*

you either want the silt or you don't, bacteria have nothing to do with the matter.
 
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blaxsun

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I read a few of the threads. Most of the comments were to the effect of “cleared for me” and “did you add the clarifier?”. Obviously I’m not going to read through each and every post...

Rinse it - don’t rinse it (I couldn’t care less). You say there’s no benefit and it doesn’t clear. Fine. I’ll counter that I setup a 200-gallon system overnight, skipping the cycle entirely and transplanting the entire contents of my mixed reef within 24 hours - and without incident. I thought that was the whole benefit with the live sand...

Disclaimer: YMMV, especially if you don’t research and plan things out in advance...
 

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I have a new tank cycling with a bare bottom because the Microbacter Start noted that the bacteria may compete with bacteria in live sand.

Questions:

1) Is there merit to this claim or is a diverse set of bacteria actually a good thing in the long run?

2) When should one add live sand if there is a bacteria Thunderdome competition?

tina turner auntie entity GIF
Your tank doesn’t need another hero

Bacteria strains will become dominant and less dominant over time as factors change within your aquarium; especially in the first year. I do believe that adding additional strains over time to refresh is important but at the beginning I don’t see the benefit. I use gulf live rock and typically don’t mess with bacteria in a bottle but I have never waited on adding sand. I hate sand, it gets everywhere. (Especially when adding to a tank with water.)

I will add a handful of some live sand or a small order or LR from one of the gulf coast rock mariculture companies every year or so to keep things diverse.
 

brandon429

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SRobert agreed, that's what aquabiomic's found and reported in his dna sampling. all initial added cycling strains were gone by year 2 (the couple reports I saw were that time frame, would suspect the shifting begins as soon as we add water) and replaced by whatever biota the home and imports selected for.

all the additions and room waftings in the next several months bring in the competing and winning strains which still alternate over time and in reaction to vital space management and various changes in the immediate environment.

*Agreed with Blaxsun things settle out in time. there is zero consequence for pre rinsing and having instant and sustained clarity however. its a means to begin the reef with total control, if that's wanted.

for the 200+ gallon reefers that's a lot of pre rinse work it'd take years to clean it lol. I can understand not rinsing when 150 pounds of sand are involved. its so dirty that rinsing 5 pounds took me an hour (and the bag is marked no rinse needed, clean, it aint)
 
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brandon429

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Aqua Man

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New dry sand right from bag and into bucket of water.
7987441E-6EF3-4260-9FD1-6234149EACA4.jpeg

so glad I rinsed the sand before putting into the tank!! Took 2 hrs to rinse out to mosty clear.
37DFDF02-586E-4ED3-848D-137D27F8E76E.jpeg




I hadnt seen a bag that messy till Aquaman showed me that pic.

there can be raw contaminants we're removing in pre rinsing, that's a fair claim it seems.

*those are probably insoluble and of no big deal to a reef tank as it builds other insolubles over time

but its a yucky start compared to a sharp pre rinse.
 
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