where have all these concerns in reefing come from? is it just commercialization of bad product?

[BeanAnimal]

Wow!! I’ve gotten more on the no water change and no skimmer train over the last two years. Do you have any current photos of your tank?

Sure don't --- can't really see in the front glass due to plating purple monti covering most of it. Too lazy to scrape it off! and a good layer of algae. Only real nutrient export right now is removal of algea that grows on a few of the rocks and return/overflow.

Give me a week or so and I will get it all scrapped and photograph before I add the new skimmer and get ready for LPS/SPS grow out.

Shallow sand bed for the most part but two corners are maybe 8" deep - so sure there is DSB action going on and a good bit of sequestered organics.

Not going to BS anybody - the tank does not look stellar, but it is not unhealthy and will take very little to get ready for SPS.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I have not done a water change - NOT A SINGLE ONE in 5 years.
I do not have a skimmer - it has been offline for 5 years.
I do not feed my fish more than maybe once a month.

The fish are alive and healthy - they eat stuff in the tank. Populations of algae and pods and stars, etc.

I have LPS and softies and some plating coral that are still doing ok. Nothing is "growing" but it is not dying either. and the tank would not support a large amount of SPS or stock- but it is far from a dead system. It is pretty much 100% self sustaining other than electricity and makeup water. Ohhh the makeup water. Basically tap water. The RO/DI filters and membrane are 5 years old too....

Reefing was easy before. If somebody told you it was complex or hard, they were not telling the truth, or they made it hard because they thought it had to be.

I had my first FO salt system in the late 80's. Air driven undergravel. It thrived.
I had my first "reef" in 2000 or somewhere thereabouts... Sand, water, salt and a pump. No chemicals, no dosing, no refugium, no skimmer, no mechanical filtration. It was easy

Over time I tried everything "new". I built a 6' tall air driven, then upgraded it to pinwheel counter current recirc skimmer. Dump tray turf scrubbers, screen turf scrubbers, continuous water changes, dosing 2 part, socks, LaCl, RDSB, halides, t5s, leds, and everything else under the sun at one time or another. Most of it was a lot of tilting at windmills and certainly not EASIER than the undergravel filter.

I just recently decided to get the tank ready for LPS again so will add an external RO Regal skimmer and blow the rocks off into filter socks a few times. Water changes? Maybe once the bioload increases and more fish and coral are introduced. Just simple good old fashioned reef keeping. No trace elements, no crazy chemicals or equipment.

That's awesome you found a way to reef that suits you. Very interested in your approach! How long did it take for your tank to stabilize with no water changes? And how much livestock is in the tank?

 

[brandon429]

the video says reef water doesn't contain cycling bac.


this thread shows cycling bac is found in reef water/conflict

How to cycle my biocube

It's algae food. Be siphoning up those waste areas as little 2 gallon water change clean up as often as it takes to keep the tank clean. Brine shrimp aren't a heavy tax like pellets, this is the right mode of care for any leftover feed though. Allow no compaction into the sandbed by routinely...

www.reef2reef.com

that's not the only thread showing reef water contains clear cycling bac either, it's one of a series.

we will soon upend the notion that reef water from high shear environments doesn't contain transmissible bac, and the result will be a market correction (.0001% lol) that results in less fear based bottle bac sales. we may only prevent 2 extra bottles sold per annum, but spot checking reef rules is so fun it just never ends.

based on logged results, true yellow api in a brand new / 1 week old stocked nano reef using no live substrates, I'd say reef water might have more cycling bac than bottled bacteria, which we can at best get to light green after ninety days wait lol. that's awesome.

 

[Midrats]

.

I get this perspective. I don't know that the peak level of care has gotten THAT much better. I'm more talking about your average person who starts a tank. Most people my dad's age who started tanks in the 90s (including my dad) weren't reading books about the subject. They didn't know the ins and outs of the various methods of care, and apart from devoting a massive amount of time to it they never would. The results showed that at least in my dad's case.

Nowadays a hobbyist can find that information with a few clicks. It's why more people are starting sps reefs.

You are making me feel old . I agree that getting information is much easier than it was back then. Some of us read all the books and periodicals we could, and I encouraged all my customers and friends to do the same. We even held classes on the weekends at our store. There were plenty of lazy people back then too that wanted instant self-sustaining gratification. You should help your dear old dad with a new tank if he's still interested.

 

[PigDaddyF15E]

I will often post questions on R2R because I enjoy the social engagement aspect of problem solving. Plus, feedback collected here can often supplement information gathered elsewhere via book, Google search, etc. It would be wrong to assume that people are EITHER posting here OR doing their own independent research. Seems like it could be a combination of both.

I agree with you and I love to help someone....but.... Perhaps it's people just not being able to say what they mean or perhaps leaving something out. I'll be the first to admit that I'm reluctant to engage when the post and thread is really just "help me...my Super Mega Ultra Jumbo Peach Tang is dying" vs. the person who says that...but posts all parameters, mentions other research they've done, and it appears they read some guidelines. I guess...I don't mind helping someone who has tried to help themselves. Yes...it's possible that people are posting and just forgetting to add that information...but IMHO...I've seen way too many "Cycle Stuck", "Why is my mega jumbo super tang dying", "why won't my mega jumbo super torch grow" only to find out they've put in zero effort to prepare (do homework before buying) or search for the answer.

 

[MoshJosh]

From a guy who starts too many threads. . . I will say posting a thread/posting on forms can get you more specific answers based on your specific set up, which is nice. There are time I have researched (here or google) and found a partial answer, or an answer for someone who's tank is completely different than mine.

Also sometimes through posting a thread you realize you weren't even asking the right question at all and talking it out helps.

Plus, I think even when we probably know the answer, we want validation. . . especially if finding out we didn't know the answer means you kill your fish or coral.

 

[Piscans]

When there is a crazy amount of conflicting info or differing opinions on how to run a successful reef, then sometimes its helpful to have a guide to cut through the unnecessary stuff and help someone find the right track for them. Too much info can be overwhelming, especially with no consensus.

conflicting people is the same thing as conflicting info, a consensus is just whoever's veiwpoint is more outspoken.

 

[BeanAnimal]

A direct case example

Nitrites wont come down

Week 5 or 6 of cycling a 10 gal. My ammonia is 0 now since I did a 20 percent water change on week 4 my nitrites are at 1ppm and won't go down my nitrates are ranging from 0-20 ppm. Maybe I need a new test kit but I went to have the water tested and I had high nitrites and decent nitrates... I...

www.reef2reef.com

The fear came from a bottle bac sellers planting the fear that nitrites which don't resolve on api equal a stalled cycle.

The fix came from bulk pattern work threads, which originated as tests for Randy's claim in 2006 that nitrites don't harm a reef tank. We can thank web forums for the fair market balance and the fact she didn't have to use, or buy, more bottled bacteria.

Why would you buy ANY bottled bacteria?

All of this "cycle" talk. You tank is never done "cycling" as long as there is organic input being added. Anything added above the baseline will increase (good and bad) bacterial colonization and nitrate/nitrate swings and anything below will cause a die off and and cause swings. In both cases, reaching an equilibrium when the input reaches a steady state.

Sure you can kickstart the whole thing by peeing in your tank, or putting in raw meat or a bottle of stuff you buy.... but the "old" way works just fine too. Add water and Salt and either let it run for a few weeks (picking up organics from the air) or throw in a damsel, crab or other SMALL critter and feed it.

(Not disagreeing with you or picking a fight at all)... I don't see the need of a work thread to verify this

 

[PigDaddyF15E]

From a guy who starts too many threads. . . I will say posting a thread/posting on forms can get you more specific answers based on your specific set up, which is nice. There are time I have researched (here or google) and found a partial answer, or an answer for someone who's tank is completely different than mine.

Also sometimes through posting a thread you realize you weren't even asking the right question at all and talking it out helps.

Plus, I think even when we probably know the answer, we want validation. . . especially if finding out we didn't know the answer means you kill your fish or coral.

I think most are more than willing to weigh in when an OP has a problem when they provide info, show they've done some research, and are willing to listen to honest feedback (they are trying to solve the problem) I am much less likely to post when that kind of info is not present and it's clear they have done no research.

EDIT: I know somebody will open debate and say it's not being a good reefer to not try and help everyone. I can agree with that "argument" (in the academic sense of you are of one opinion, I am another, and we can debate pro/con and agree to disagree or change my/your opinion with sound "argument"). I will just say that I personally only have so much time I can dedicate to this hobby and I'm much more likely to spend that time on someone who looks like they have tried to help themselves or have at least provided basic info (read posting guildelines for forum areas). I'm sure that means that somewhere I didn't help someone and they quit the hobby. BUT...I think I've budgetted my time wisely by not helping the people who post when it's clear they have jumped into this without doing any research and wanted some "throw money at the problem" fix to make things look like the cover of a reef magazine when it's clear they will not be putting in the time/effort into this hobby. People who want some magical "instant coral reef tank with exotic fish" "Just add one drop of water and enjoy!" Not that I've done any "quality research" but I don't think I've seen to many of these types of people turn the corner...most disappear from these forums and I'm assuming failed/tore the tank down.

 

[brandon429]

BeanAnimal

I can't rightly debate that statement, that bottle bac may not be needed at all, based on those results above. nice inference. we could be getting mass shilled even by me lol I love self assessments.

I'm shocked by how thoroughly reef water just cycled his instant stocked tanks. I assure you that if polled, 100% of readers and reef sages would agree he couldnt be cycled, till we got that golden api test kit/rarest thing I ever see

notice my cycling hesitation when he asks to add a second fish.

I'm patently amazed it was that yellow, I expected .25 and would have still praised imagitarium water to the moon and back.

before I quit using bottle bac in my work threads I need to see about 15 of those type setups on seneye then I'll jump ship. we got mighty lucky on that api ammonia test, I'm thinking.

 

[Piscans]

I'd argue that's kind of the point as to why the existence of things like r2r and the internet have increased success (my definition of success being a larger portion of the population being able to keep and grow many more challenging fish and corals) over a lot of the new vendors products.

The ideas aren't new. The next big light still just puts out par. How to successfully implement them and getting advice from some of the best people to do it is just way easier now. Learning from others isn't a weakness. Doing independent research and having your own opinions is valuable, but humbling yourself and learning from others can be as well especially when they have verifiable results.

Take a time machine to even 10 years ago and tell someone that alveopora and gonis are going to regularly thrive in a captive environment. There was the odd reefer that could make them work under specific circumstances. Now, you see success all over the place due to this pool of shared collaborative knowledge.

There are people who are over-reliant on anecdote, but there are also places like the chemistry forum here where you can follow meticulous scientific results and get to your goals of understanding complicated systems.

I guess I just don't understand why we should fault anyone trying to educate themselves. I'd much rather someone ignorant of how things work in a reef environment ask a 'silly' question they could have solved with a Google search than just letting those fish and coral die to negligence. Negligence and laziness in reefing aren't new concepts. They're just more visible with the internet (as is everything else more visible).

just cause 1 person can keep an ultra rare nano goby or ultra rare coral, dosent mean everyone is more successfull. not asking questions on a forum is not negligence necessarily, if they put in effort and research the things themselves, then its the exact opposite, some questions that are hypothetical or extremely situational or uncommon are good to ask but trying to identify the species of pest anenome wich are easy to id and both have similar treatment is not very smart to ask cause you can google it yourself super easily. i see forums as a way to get help on things that are not commonly encountered and to get inspiritaon for stuff.

 

[Piscans]

Why would you buy ANY bottled bacteria?

All of this "cycle" talk. You tank is never done "cycling" as long as there is organic input being added. Anything added above the baseline will increase (good and bad) bacterial colonization and nitrate/nitrate swings and anything below will cause a die off and and cause swings. In both cases, reaching an equilibrium when the input reaches a steady state.

Sure you can kickstart the whole thing by peeing in your tank, or putting in raw meat or a bottle of stuff you buy.... but the "old" way works just fine too. Add water and Salt and either let it run for a few weeks (picking up organics from the air) or throw in a damsel, crab or other SMALL critter and feed it.

(Not disagreeing with you or picking a fight at all)... I don't see the need of a work thread to verify this

yeah i agree, sometimes you dont need a current census on everyone to make sure the method still works even though it did 15 years ago. its like gravity, its worked since the beginning of time, gravity is not just going to turn off. some people may have different results, but thats just reeftanks

 

[92Miata]

, most of the problems i see could be figured out with google and a little bit of effort.

There's a caveat here - it's easy to find the answer to these questions if you already know the answers. If you don't know the answers, there's an enormous volume of bad information out there.

Your average reefer is vastly more successful now than they were even 10 years ago much less 25-30.

This does not at all match what I've seen.

20 years ago, when I was dealing with newbies, I'd get them to buy some live rock, put it in a tank, wait a couple weeks, put some fish in, wait a couple more weeks, put some corals in, and they were off to the races.


Nowadays, I generally don't help newbies until they crash and burn - because they've learned so much nonsense from places like BRS - and it takes them crashing and burning and realizing it's nonsense before you can fix that. And some of them never do that - they just keep dumping money in the hole and doing what BRS tells them and then they're 2 years in, still losing fish and corals, and they give up.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Circling back to the OP. I believe he was trying to say that people wouldn't have to ask so many questions if they would just "google it".

Let me paraphrase "I am too lazy to answer questions for people that are too lazy to Google and get their own answer"


The purpose of this forum (any FORUM) is for discussion. Just because the answer to a question can be "Googled" does not mean that the question should not be asked or that the asker is lazy.

Knowledge and understanding are advanced by discussion, relationships are made by discussion. Shall we ban the discussion of anything that can be Googled? Of course not.

Does the OP and his sympathizers that hate answering "easily googled answers" (or anybody) have the right to start a forum with a rules that says "If you ask before googling or that have already been answered here, you will be banned"... sure... I for one will not participate

 

[Cthulukelele]

There's a caveat here - it's easy to find the answer to these questions if you already know the answers. If you don't know the answers, there's an enormous volume of bad information out there.



This does not at all match what I've seen.

20 years ago, when I was dealing with newbies, I'd get them to buy some live rock, put it in a tank, wait a couple weeks, put some fish in, wait a couple more weeks, put some corals in, and they were off to the races.


Nowadays, I generally don't help newbies until they crash and burn - because they've learned so much nonsense from places like BRS - and it takes them crashing and burning and realizing it's nonsense before you can fix that. And some of them never do that - they just keep dumping money in the hole and doing what BRS tells them and then they're 2 years in, still losing fish and corals, and they give up.

I could see this. My answer was probably overly aggressive in wording. My point was essentially what I responded to midrats with--middlingly invested reefers now have a lot more information and things to go off of than before. The people who are hard-core into this and getting guidance from vets aren't much better off than in the past. I realize I should have probably put it in less aggressive terms

 

[MoshJosh]

I will add that you don't know what you don't know. If you don't know that aptasia is a common pest and there are ways of dealing with it, you might run to R2R and ask. You may also not be familiar with forum/internet etiquette (and some people probably never will be) you may post about stuff instead of googling it.

You may also have seen totally incorrect information on google (or not know how to properly conduct internet research) and though asking R2R is safer.

AND I will say that, in my experience, forums are pretty casual and social places. . .

 

[92Miata]

Why would you buy ANY bottled bacteria?

.... Add water and Salt and either let it run for a few weeks (picking up organics from the air) or throw in a damsel, crab or other SMALL critter and feed it.

Because if you don't do the nonsense where you add bottled bacteria and then dose ammonia for weeks, and just follow the directions on the bottle and put the stuff in, then add your first fish - you end up in the same place, just way faster, with basically no risk.

It's faster than adding a damsel, and has none of the perceived ethical issues about ammonia exposure.

There's no place else in reefing where you can kick your tank forward 3 weeks for $9. (and of course, Live Rock is absolutely a better way to start)

 

[PigDaddyF15E]

Let me paraphrase "I am too lazy to answer questions for people that are too lazy to Google and get their own answer"


The purpose of this forum (any FORUM) is for discussion. Just because the answer to a question can be "Googled" does not mean that the question should not be asked or that the asker is lazy.

Knowledge and understanding are advanced by discussion, relationships are made by discussion. Shall we ban the discussion of anything that can be Googled? Of course not.

Does the OP and his sympathizers that hate answering "easily googled answers" (or anybody) have the right to start a forum with a rules that says "If you ask before googling or that have already been answered here, you will be banned"... sure... I for one will not participate

Point well taken. Totally agree with you.

 

[Tamberav]

I will often post questions on R2R because I enjoy the social engagement aspect of problem solving. Plus, feedback collected here can often supplement information gathered elsewhere via book, Google search, etc. It would be wrong to assume that people are EITHER posting here OR doing their own independent research. Seems like it could be a combination of both.

Sure but we get many repetitive questions to basic things that are in the stickies which leaves me to link the sticky...

 

[BeanAnimal]

That's awesome you found a way to reef that suits you. Very interested in your approach! How long did it take for your tank to stabilize with no water changes? And how much livestock is in the tank?

I am not sure that it suits me as much as it was an evolution of lack of time and attention but not wanting to get out of the hobby.

Current stock
Scopas Tang
Kole Tang
Black Goby (i rarely see him)
Black Blennie (combtooth if i remember) see him in the rocks from time to time.
Flame Angel
A few huge brittles

Various softies and LPS (leather, shroom, brain, zoas (hate em)- plating monty (god there is two tons of it taking over everything) and not sure what else. Last I looked there was still a bit of SPS encrusting some of the rocks, but it may be gone. I lost one of the 3 radions a while ago and the brain has suffered... I have not moved it, but need to. I have new lights, but can't find the par meter so have to order a new. I suppose I don't need it, but I would like to compare the ancient radions for the sake of doing so.