where have all these concerns in reefing come from? is it just commercialization of bad product?

[brandon429]

A direct case example

Nitrites wont come down

Week 5 or 6 of cycling a 10 gal. My ammonia is 0 now since I did a 20 percent water change on week 4 my nitrites are at 1ppm and won't go down my nitrates are ranging from 0-20 ppm. Maybe I need a new test kit but I went to have the water tested and I had high nitrites and decent nitrates... I...

www.reef2reef.com

The fear came from a bottle bac sellers planting the fear that nitrites which don't resolve on api equal a stalled cycle.

The fix came from bulk pattern work threads, which originated as tests for Randy's claim in 2006 that nitrites don't harm a reef tank. We can thank web forums for the fair market balance and the fact she didn't have to use, or buy, more bottled bacteria.

 

[sixty_reefer]

But you have to define what “success” means in the hobby. There are many more corals and fish we can now keep than 30 years ago. Many more ways to reef.

Isn’t success just having something we enjoy? Success shouldn’t be always related to systems full of SPS colonies I find that any aquarists that can keep their fish healthy a successful one.
We can say that technology has reduced some of our labour although someone could have all the latest gear and still not be successful in this hobby, we often confuse what’s visually appealing with success imo

 

[OldRed1]

Because we live in a world of social media and people want to be spoon fed information. Especially if there is a YouTube video about it.

Another thing is to fish for information that already aligns with your thinking. Confirmation bias.

I will often post questions on R2R because I enjoy the social engagement aspect of problem solving. Plus, feedback collected here can often supplement information gathered elsewhere via book, Google search, etc. It would be wrong to assume that people are EITHER posting here OR doing their own independent research. Seems like it could be a combination of both.

 

[RedoubtReef]

Another problem is the hyper-commercialization of the reefing industry, lighting for a small-ish tank can go up into the 4 figure range, which is something most prospecting reefers and just reefers in general cannot afford. Those big expensive light companies also rely on the problems that some reefers have had with cheaper lights, proclaiming that their light can do no wrong, when the truth is, most of those lights are manufactured by the same people in china, this also goes with pretty much all other equipment. i feel that usually people just rely on their brand to push through mediocre products but brand them as god-tier end all products, when they are just a cheap light in a fancy facade.

We also have the issue of built-in obsolescence with LED fixtures. They've turned in iPhones and once the latest model comes out, yours isn't supported. Then they want you to buy another one. It seems wasteful to me. I'd rather swap bulbs than fixtures.

 

[Midrats]

But you have to define what “success” means in the hobby. There are many more corals and fish we can now keep than 30 years ago. Many more ways to reef.

Can we really define success by the fact that more people are attempting SPS these days? They are just as finicky today as they were back then. What are we able to keep now that we weren't able to keep then? What methodologies have changed? Jaubert, Berlin, a hybrid, there is nothing new about these. Calcium reactors, kalkwasser, two part, all old hat. Propeller pumps have been around for over twenty years. I guess I'm just not seeing the vast success today over the tanks we kept in the Nineties.

 

[PigDaddyF15E]

A direct case example

Nitrites wont come down

Week 5 or 6 of cycling a 10 gal. My ammonia is 0 now since I did a 20 percent water change on week 4 my nitrites are at 1ppm and won't go down my nitrates are ranging from 0-20 ppm. Maybe I need a new test kit but I went to have the water tested and I had high nitrites and decent nitrates... I...

www.reef2reef.com

The fear came from a bottle bac sellers planting the fear that nitrites which don't resolve on api equal a stalled cycle.

The fix came from bulk pattern work threads, which originated as tests for Randy's claim in 2006 that nitrites don't harm a reef tank. We can thank web forums for the fair market balance and the fact she didn't have to use, or buy, more bottled bacteria.

Circling back to the OP. I believe he was trying to say that people wouldn't have to ask so many questions if they would just "google it". So far in that thread...nobody has said anything that hasn't already been posted. Pure speculation on my part...but I want to believe the that Nitrites poster wouldn't have needed/wanted to post had they been able to find the answer.

As others have pointed out...there is an art form to finding stuff on google. Personally...I always phrase my searches "Help with algae AND reef2reef" but that's my personal preference...you can then go from there.

 

[brandon429]

Well said.

 

[brandon429]

Small sidebar unrelated but an amazing read still.

coral growth vessels

these are amazing if you have an eye for marine science detail

www.scienceforums.net

I've been trying to convince this one reefer for 14 years that pico reefing isn't fake, rock on enduring skeptics!

This also shows how work threads shape science (well not for all he he)

I have no idea how that applies here, but it certainly involves someone not believing people from the internet that's for sure

The reason I blabbed all over the internet about pico reefs for twenty years is so that someone else couldn't pop up (pnw reefs he he) and try and steal that. Forum boards are my free from cost trademarkers

 

[Cthulukelele]

.

Can we really define success by the fact that more people are attempting SPS these days? They are just as finicky today as they were back then. What are we able to keep now that we weren't able to keep then? What methodologies have changed? Jaubert, Berlin, a hybrid, there is nothing new about these. Calcium reactors, kalkwasser, two part, all old hat. Propeller pumps have been around for over twenty years. I guess I'm just not seeing the vast success today over the tanks we kept in the Nineties.

I get this perspective. I don't know that the peak level of care has gotten THAT much better. I'm more talking about your average person who starts a tank. Most people my dad's age who started tanks in the 90s (including my dad) weren't reading books about the subject. They didn't know the ins and outs of the various methods of care, and apart from devoting a massive amount of time to it they never would. The results showed that at least in my dad's case.

Nowadays a hobbyist can find that information with a few clicks. It's why more people are starting sps reefs.

 

[brandon429]

@PNWCustom

Where did you get your idea for the mini all in one from

Do you have any design pics from 2003 for example?


I wonder how long it will take for someone to sell non evaporating reef tanks/zero topoff/zero evaporation lid seal reef tanks

not slowed evaporation reef tanks, non evaporating no topoff no ato doesn't stray from .023 for three years reef tanks.

jump in on that it will be a hot market

all you need for the mod is a custom glass lid and seal system for the top and bottom tanks.

 

[Kathy Floyd]

I will often post questions on R2R because I enjoy the social engagement aspect of problem solving. Plus, feedback collected here can often supplement information gathered elsewhere via book, Google search, etc. It would be wrong to assume that people are EITHER posting here OR doing their own independent research. Seems like it could be a combination of both.

^^ This

 

[dlsorensen]

I have been pondering a subject recently, why is everyone making all these big concerns about reefing?

Nowadays, when scrolling through r2r, its stuff like changing salt mix or is my cycle complete or "what could this possibly be" type situations, most of the problems i see could be figured out with google and a little bit of effort. all you really need to start being an "expert" in reefing is a PhD in google. back in the days of old, people had to go to libraries and use the magical internet, that took a long time to load up. I am young, so i do not know of the trouble of things like that, but i do not ignore it, in modern day, a single person has almost all data, from all time, Accessible in less than 1 second. what if we went to the same effort as the people back in the day? what could we accomplish? another thing, they did not have the luxury of googling the salt peramaters of a obscure brand of salt, they would just have to take a shot in the dark. nobody does that anymore. back then, people had dynamite tanks like this one:

so why do modern day reefers, with access to all the information they could possibly need have tanks that are pretty old, that are algae ridden dry rock scapes with maybe 3 corals and a pair of evil clownfish?


Cause people overload concerns, underdo things, and the problems in the tank that are not adressed with proper care take hold and conquer the tank. Lots of people fail cause lots of people keep tanks, just about every possible thing has a horror story that comes from it. when you have a concern, instead of asking everyone who has heard that story or who just google the problem to be helpful and find that horror story, spend 30 minutes reading different sources and then weigh the pros and cons of whatever you are trying to do.

Hope this provides some insight,

Piscans

Edit: i forgot to adress commercialization, so i will write about that here:


Another problem is the hyper-commercialization of the reefing industry, lighting for a small-ish tank can go up into the 4 figure range, which is something most prospecting reefers and just reefers in general cannot afford. Those big expensive light companies also rely on the problems that some reefers have had with cheaper lights, proclaiming that their light can do no wrong, when the truth is, most of those lights are manufactured by the same people in china, this also goes with pretty much all other equipment. i feel that usually people just rely on their brand to push through mediocre products but brand them as god-tier end all products, when they are just a cheap light in a fancy facade.

Would you rather get an answer from someone who read about rocket science on Wikipedia or someone who has built a rocket?

 

[TokenReefer]

Would you rather get an answer from someone who read about rocket science on Wikipedia or someone who has built a rocket?

Isn't the answer here obvious?

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Would you rather get an answer from someone who read about rocket science on Wikipedia or someone who has built a rocket?

Figured this thread needed a little humor. So using your reference lol.

Rocket Built By a Rocket Engineer.

Rocket built from Wikipedia

 

[Reefer Matt]

Imo, some people will never have success in reefing because it isn't a match for their personal behaviors and/or lifestyle. And there is nothing wrong with that. I suppose that should be the first concern people think about before they buy their first tank.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Isn't the answer here obvious?

Would it make a difference if the person that built the rocket was a labour in the assembly line

for example if someone has good results in implementing Triton, Zeo, DSR etc… are they building the rocket or following directions from the chap who built the rocket?

 

[BeanAnimal]

My perception is that reefing is much easier than before, so people are always upping the ante. Human behavior seems to always make things more difficult than they need to be. When people get completely lost and clueless on what went wrong with their tank, I usually refer them to the easiest, basic fix first. Such as changing their water. Other people then blowup on why they think water changes aren't necessary.
Some times there are also "too many cooks in the kitchen", and the recipe for success gets lost.

I have not done a water change - NOT A SINGLE ONE in 5 years.
I do not have a skimmer - it has been offline for 5 years.
I do not feed my fish more than maybe once a month.

The fish are alive and healthy - they eat stuff in the tank. Populations of algae and pods and stars, etc.

I have LPS and softies and some plating coral that are still doing ok. Nothing is "growing" but it is not dying either. and the tank would not support a large amount of SPS or stock- but it is far from a dead system. It is pretty much 100% self sustaining other than electricity and makeup water. Ohhh the makeup water. Basically tap water. The RO/DI filters and membrane are 5 years old too....

Reefing was easy before. If somebody told you it was complex or hard, they were not telling the truth, or they made it hard because they thought it had to be.

I had my first FO salt system in the late 80's. Air driven undergravel. It thrived.
I had my first "reef" in 2000 or somewhere thereabouts... Sand, water, salt and a pump. No chemicals, no dosing, no refugium, no skimmer, no mechanical filtration. It was easy

Over time I tried everything "new". I built a 6' tall air driven, then upgraded it to pinwheel counter current recirc skimmer. Dump tray turf scrubbers, screen turf scrubbers, continuous water changes, dosing 2 part, socks, LaCl, RDSB, halides, t5s, leds, and everything else under the sun at one time or another. Most of it was a lot of tilting at windmills and certainly not EASIER than the undergravel filter.

I just recently decided to get the tank ready for LPS again so will add an external RO Regal skimmer and blow the rocks off into filter socks a few times. Water changes? Maybe once the bioload increases and more fish and coral are introduced. Just simple good old fashioned reef keeping. No trace elements, no crazy chemicals or equipment.

 

[revhtree]

I have not done a water change - NOT A SINGLE ONE in 5 years.
I do not have a skimmer - it has been offline for 5 years.
I do not feed my fish more than maybe once a month.

The fish are alive and healthy - they eat stuff in the tank. Populations of algae and pods and stars, etc.

I have LPS and softies and some plating coral that are still doing ok. Nothing is "growing" but it is not dying either. and the tank would not support a large amount of SPS or stock- but it is far from a dead system. It is pretty much 100% self sustaining other than electricity and makeup water. Ohhh the makeup water. Basically tap water. The RO/DI filters and membrane are 5 years old too....

Reefing was easy before. If somebody told you it was complex or hard, they were not telling the truth, or they made it hard because they thought it had to be.

I had my first FO salt system in the late 80's. Air driven undergravel. It thrived.
I had my first "reef" in 2000 or somewhere thereabouts... Sand, water, salt and a pump. No chemicals, no dosing, no refugium, no skimmer, no mechanical filtration. It was easy

Over time I tried everything "new". I built a 6' tall air driven, then upgraded it to pinwheel counter current recirc skimmer. Dump tray turf scrubbers, screen turf scrubbers, continuous water changes, dosing 2 part, socks, LaCl, RDSB, halides, t5s, leds, and everything else under the sun at one time or another. Most of it was a lot of tilting at windmills and certainly not EASIER than the undergravel filter.

I just recently decided to get the tank ready for LPS again so will add an external RO Regal skimmer and blow the rocks off into filter socks a few times. Water changes? Maybe once the bioload increases and more fish and coral are introduced. Just simple good old fashioned reef keeping. No trace elements, no crazy chemicals or equipment.

Wow!! I’ve gotten more on the no water change and no skimmer train over the last two years. Do you have any current photos of your tank?

 

[Garf]

Figured this thread needed a little humor. So using your reference lol.

Rocket Built By a Rocket Engineer.

Rocket built from Wikipedia

English rocket scientist

 

[BeanAnimal]

In fact - I have had fish tanks since I was in grade school... Oscars, Pirañas, tetras, hatchets, anglers, you name it. In EVERY CASE caring for the freshwater systems was always MORE work than the salt system. There is just not an ecosystem there to buffer things and water changes and mechanical filtration are essential.