where have all these concerns in reefing come from? is it just commercialization of bad product?

[revhtree]

As one who was reefing thirty years ago and was part of the industry for many years I'm not sure I agree with this statement.

But you have to define what “success” means in the hobby. There are many more corals and fish we can now keep than 30 years ago. Many more ways to reef.

 

[Garf]

There are many more corals and fish we can now keep than 30 years ago.

Which is odd, as my tank runs on dry rock, no sand, plastic balls, water changes and kalk. They were all around a long long time ago.

 

[Cthulukelele]

Which is odd, as my tank runs on dry rock, no sand, plastic balls, water changes and kalk. They were all around a long long time ago.

I'd argue that's kind of the point as to why the existence of things like r2r and the internet have increased success (my definition of success being a larger portion of the population being able to keep and grow many more challenging fish and corals) over a lot of the new vendors products.

The ideas aren't new. The next big light still just puts out par. How to successfully implement them and getting advice from some of the best people to do it is just way easier now. Learning from others isn't a weakness. Doing independent research and having your own opinions is valuable, but humbling yourself and learning from others can be as well especially when they have verifiable results.

Take a time machine to even 10 years ago and tell someone that alveopora and gonis are going to regularly thrive in a captive environment. There was the odd reefer that could make them work under specific circumstances. Now, you see success all over the place due to this pool of shared collaborative knowledge.

There are people who are over-reliant on anecdote, but there are also places like the chemistry forum here where you can follow meticulous scientific results and get to your goals of understanding complicated systems.

I guess I just don't understand why we should fault anyone trying to educate themselves. I'd much rather someone ignorant of how things work in a reef environment ask a 'silly' question they could have solved with a Google search than just letting those fish and coral die to negligence. Negligence and laziness in reefing aren't new concepts. They're just more visible with the internet (as is everything else more visible).

 

[Gumbies R Us]

As I am relatively new to the hobby, the internet has definitely been a big help to me. Places such as R2R or a quick google search have been been a big help to me. I know for me, starting a tank back in the 90s seems like a daunting task, especially if you lived in an area that doesn't have a big reef community or without any help from friends or family. All this to say, I am thankful for the internet making the hobby more accessible for people that might be unsure or curious about starting a tank. However, I do get the point of the internet being information overload as well; since there can be a ton of opinions on what sand to get, what fish to get, etc...

 

[revhtree]

Which is odd, as my tank runs on dry rock, no sand, plastic balls, water changes and kalk. They were all around a long long time ago.

Maybe I should say “keep more successfully’ but you are correct!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wow - reading the bulk of the comments here….

let’s close the forums down (all of them) and just replace all of them with a static page reading “all questions and conversations are dumb! Get off your lazy instant gratification loving butt and use Google”

Frankly, most of you come off as rather insufferable and too good to happily pass on what you think you know. Don’t want to answer questions, then don’t. But, good grief don’t belittle people for wanting to participate in conversation, get varied opinIons and be an active member of a community.

Every person here has different skills, aptitude, goals and expectations. You call asking questions lazy. “Did you try search” is LAZY.

 

[ReefGeezer]

It is interesting that there is a thread on a reefing forum about using Google rather than the forum itself. I do use Google from time to time. Usually though, I end up clicking on R2R links. So for me, it really just becomes a search function for R2R. I envy those who can understand seemingly obscure scholarly papers or filter out the BS in commercial recommendations, and develop actions based on their content. I'm just not smart enough to do that. I'm neither negligent or lazy, but I need to ask questions and have things explained to me by people who have the patience to do so. I value R2R and appreciate those who take the time to help me out.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

It is interesting that there is a thread on a reefing forum about using Google rather than the forum itself. I do use Google from time to time. Usually though, I end up clicking on R2R links. So for me, it really just becomes a search function for R2R. I envy those who can understand seemingly obscure scholarly papers or filter out the BS in commercial recommendations, and develop actions based on their content. I'm just not smart enough to do that. I'm neither negligent or lazy, but I need to ask questions and have things explained to me by people who have the patience to do so. I value R2R and appreciate those who take the time to help me out.

I know when I was in college having to use google scholar trying to find articles, and half of them made absolutely no sense to me, props to people that can understand them better than I can haha. I agree with you though, whenever I google something, usually the first links it'll pull up will be R2R or I'll just add "Reef2Reef" at the end of the search, very thankful for the team that runs this website.

 

[Joe462]

I think a lot of it is just impatience. Back in the day we were always told that patience was the most important thing in reefing or at least i was. Now there are possibly other options, advice, products, that promise to speed the process and make it easy. Someone goes on the social media and says i set my tank up in a week i have fish and acros, everything doing well. So that is the new standard. and it doesn't work for everyone. products promise a quick and easy cycle. But for a lot of people these quick start, fancy cycling methods don't work and they end up killing a bunch of stuff or just not getting the results they were expecting.

Information gathering is the same way, just ask on facebook or a forum. When i was starting, i went to my local fish store, then the one that wasn't so local because they had better advice, i bought books, i looked up websites. I didn't belong to facebook groups or forums, didn't realize they were out there yet/dont really trust a strangers opinion. They were out there i'm sure but not as common or popular or i just might not have known about them in the mid 2000s and i was accustomed to doing a different kind of research. But folks today have a different standard of information gathering and "research" and its fast and easy and there is a ton of information, but not always reliable. People get both good and bad information and don't always know how/make the effort to know which is which or how to apply it properly to their own tank, cause every system is different. but the over load of information and advice some good, some bad, some indifferent makes people paranoid and/or sometimes their initial expectations are way too high.

And this might be a little off topic but the idea that everything is either good or bad drives me crazy. like bristle worms, they just are, they don't really hurt anything and they eat detritus. so i don't care or mind having them, but if i see a big one i will usually get rid of it or if it seems like there are a lot in the tank i will suck some up when i do water changes. Its also ok if you just don't like them and you don't want them in your tank, 15 people don't need to comment that they are good clean up crew and try to convince you that they are "good". If i saw something in my tank i couldn't identify, i didn't freak out i just observed it and made my own conclusion on whether i wanted it in my tank or not. I might look it up or ask someone about it, but that was just part of the expectation that there would be interesting things that showed up in my tank. some caused problems and some were fine and most, especially the common ones, are not that hard to remove because people have been trying to get rid of them for a long time.

I once bought a snail or crab (can't remember which) with a manjano on its shell. if i posted that now on facebook or here people would make fun, probably imply i was an idiot, and tell me to burndown the local fish store it came from. I can't recall if they actually knew what it was or not (not every local fish store person is ultra knowledgeable and that ok, especially back then and in very small market, small reefing community), but i did ask some questions and all that, knew leaving the store that i wasn't certain what it was and it was cool. I enjoyed it and it was never really a problem, didn't take over the tank and i think i eventually got rid of it and its progeny, but it wasn't a big deal and learned some stuff from it.

 

[brandon429]

internet forums provide crucial fact checks for the public as they get to scan outcome patterns from actions without having to factor anyone's summary.

want to know if fluconazole works? no need to read someone's account, just scroll before and after pics from the 450 page fluc work thread. we get to collect our own data using web forums.

we get to cause change in reefing, influence procedure and purchases as market levelers, from the momentum created and sustained in forum posts.


We wouldn't be pico reefing if it weren't for forum posts, published google Scholar links says allelopathy will prevent pico reefs from surviving.

for example, where other than Randy's posts can you read that nitrite simply has no bearing in a reef display?

you can't get that from a macna talk on youtube, it says nitrite stalls a cycle. That youtube video sells unfairly millions of dollars in bottle bac to folks who didn't know to fact check the statement.

it goes beyond Randy's repeat mentions of the chemistry fact...if we search out work threads here we can see about 1000 reef tanks ignoring nitrite and never stalling, doing just fine.

without fact checking via post pattern bulk, we're helpless to the rules the sellers make. we will be led to complete a purchase for everything in reefing were it not for peers uploading alternate findings in bulk searchable patterns forever stamped on the web/free

 

[Crofty]

To the OP:
As someone new to this hobby, I read All the new 'I need help with...' and 'What could this be...' threads. I've leaned as much or more from those threads as from the countless hours I've spent on Google searches and pseudo targeted reading/searches on this forum. Some are answered questions I didn't even know enough to research.

Yes, many of those questions have been asked before and the answer exists somewhere on this site, but I'm happy people are posting those questions (even if I wouldn't personally).

Also, Google and forum searches aren't always that easy to get relevant info when you are brand new and don't know the right terminology to use or how to craft good search terms.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@

internet forums provide crucial fact checks for the public as they get to scan outcome patterns from actions without having to factor anyone's summary.

want to know if fluconazole works? no need to read someone's account, just scroll before and after pics from the 450 page fluc work thread. we get to collect our own data using web forums.

we get to cause change in reefing, influence procedure and purchases as market levelers, from the momentum created and sustained in forum posts.


We wouldn't be pico reefing if it weren't for forum posts, published google Scholar links says allelopathy will prevent pico reefs from surviving.

for example, where other than Randy's posts can you read that nitrite simply has no bearing in a reef display?

you can't get that from a macna talk on youtube, it says nitrite stalls a cycle. That youtube video sells unfairly millions of dollars in bottle bac to folks who didn't know to fact check the statement.

it goes beyond Randy's repeat mentions of the chemistry fact...if we search out work threads here we can see about 1000 reef tanks ignoring nitrite and never stalling, doing just fine.

without fact checking via post pattern bulk, we're helpless to the rules the sellers make. we will be led to complete a purchase for everything in reefing were it not for peers uploading alternate findings in bulk searchable patterns forever stamped on the web/free

Respectfully, everyone is here for a different reason and I would assume few of them (us) are interested In the “work thread“ paradigm as the only conveyance of advIce or ‘truth”.

I for one have no issue with advice or guidance Being given from personal experience and and not “proven” in a “work thread”. At the same time the bulk of “posting pattern” can be flat out wrong as well. Bad information is amplified just as quickly as good information.

No amount of science or pseudo science is going to prevent they conveyance of opinion, misinformation or straight out nonsense.

 

[brandon429]

sounds like a fair perspective.

Once we align fifty pages of other people's reefs using method X, no matter how pseudoscience that method may seem, eventually a point of acceptance happens across the board.

such as

peroxide in the reef

pico reefs

the actual science of stalled reef tank cycles as measured by seneye owners vs api owners.

and several other major factors in reefing...such as, being able to control tank cycling during tank transfers without losses/ or being able to 100% switch out a sandbed in anyone's reef tank here for a new one, without any losses

all come from lowly anecdotal pattern work threads bulked over the last couple decades, not because the gatekeepers originally welcomed the first post of the work thread that's for sure


on paper as a balanced equation, peroxide is supposed to harm reefs.

but what does eleven years of application in other people's tanks show...

peroxide in the reef tank and pico reefing in general were 100% rejected as pseudoscience from established reefers at the very inception, I have the fiery threads as proof and then the million + tanks now using the methods forced the practice to become accepted.

turning anecdote into accepted science is a potential benefit of testing claims in other people's tanks via web forums.

its messy though, tons of sifting is required to find the patterns.

it's free though, and thousands of entrants want to upload their pics and findings so that's why I find work threads as pure gold and peer reviewed stuff as the slowest possible molasses we can reference. things change so fast in our hobby...

 

[brandon429]

To the OP's original point/thread title

a concern about stalled reef tank cycles originated because MACNA elevated by podium a speaker who said that was a pressing matter.

he had the right to make the statement, we had the right to test it in bulk for fact checking, to see if we need to buy repeat bottles of bacteria over and over to cycle a reef tank. the market needed that fact checking to maintain truth in balance.

only work threads of such size and composition showing the opposite outcome, opposite of what the MACNA speaker said on several points, sets the balance.

(for example, the speaker says reef tank water contains no transmissible cycling bacteria. we then make work threads cycling people's reef tanks solely by water and no other form of bacterial input, rendering the claim as questionable)

sometimes a fear is caused by a seller of something, and we as buyers don't have a way to doubt it other than if three thousand peers can show it to be a non issue with 100% safety rate and not one outlier logged.

 

[Mark Goode]

Why do people ask questions on here instead of using Google? Because we're social creatures and talking to like-minded people is nicer than Google.

 

[BeanAnimal]

things change so fast in our hobby...

But do they really… or is most of it just complicating things to a point of diminished return, often driven by monetization?

1000 ways to skin a cat, but in the end it is a skinned cat. It does not take scientific knowledge or modern paradigms to maintain a healthy or aesthetically pleasing reef.

 

[ReeferNick13]

IMO I think for some people it's just more reassuring to get a persons live opinion about a certain thing, like the cycle process or a possible fish disease etc., that has the experience and has seen or dealt with the problem first hand. It hopefully shows that they care for their tank and want to do the best they possibly can.

With that being said I think it's very important to do your own research, there's a lot of great information out there that people should take the time to read and understand for themselves. If you're simply being lazy and expecting other people to solve all your problems and taking shortcuts then you won't have much success in this hobby or for anything in that matter.

As we know one small mistake can set things back and cause a lot of unwanted issues.
I think it's good to ask questions and share experiences good and bad, especially for newcomers. With so much information out there it can be very confusing. If the same questions get asked over and over just share an article and show support. If someone's annoyed by a reoccurring post then simply don't comment on it and move on.

I'm no expert by any means as I've only been reefing for a few years but I absolutely love reading articles and other peoples experiences about the fascinating and complex underwater world that we are lucky to keep in our homes. It's your own personal duty to know what you're getting into and that you're caring for life that is depending on you. And if you're confused or have questions it's better to ask than to make an uneducated decision. Isn't that the point of forums anyway? Reefers unite!

 

[Reefer Matt]

My perception is that reefing is much easier than before, so people are always upping the ante. Human behavior seems to always make things more difficult than they need to be. When people get completely lost and clueless on what went wrong with their tank, I usually refer them to the easiest, basic fix first. Such as changing their water. Other people then blowup on why they think water changes aren't necessary.
Some times there are also "too many cooks in the kitchen", and the recipe for success gets lost.

 

[TokenReefer]

Bad information has existed since the dawn of time. The bad information must be parsed from the good. We as humans have an advantage that past experiences and knowledge are added to our current understanding of the world; those include both good and bad, from the internet or books. I for one want as much information as possible on a topic for me to better gauge what is good information and what is bad; the internet serves it's purpose for me

 

[Big Smelly fish]

I started keeping marine fish in 1972. Under gravel filters, crushed coral and bleached dead corals. Read every book I could get my hands on to try and understand the biological processes involve in the nitrogen cycle. Tried keeping things like anemones we had no business keeping back then .
but times have changed since the internet and the way people get their information. Too many start without even the basics of the biological processes. When they encounter a problem instead of going back and researching for themselves they just go to a forum, YouTube or Facebook ask a quest for a quick fix .
it’s like that in all kind of things. I was a transmission specialist, I rebuilt transmission for years And I remember my Don and his friends telling me they could just watch a YouTube video and rebuild one. And yes you can get away with that until a problem arises that requires and understanding of hydraulics or something else.