Why do so many fish get sick?

[4FordFamily]

So is your success partially a result of not using GMO, and buying only gluten free organic to your fish?

 

[Paul B]

You mean my beautiful skimmer? I built that many years ago and didn't take pictures. It is made with off the shelf parts except the acrylic may be hard to get. I have the top of one made for some reason,if you were near here,I would give it to you. Mine is 5' tall and runs with2 pumps. I have never had to clean the "body" of the thing and it runs perfectly. I even built the venturi valve for about fifty cents.

As for the quarantine thing I can't put that on here because of all the hate mail I would get and that is the reason I wrote a book which should be out in a couple of months, I hope. That topic encompasses quite a bit of words and you have to understand it fully or you will say things like I hear all the time. Things like "Hey Man you can't say that" Or "Noobs will crash their tanks if you tell them that". Or Hey, "Your a Jerk" .
If your interested, you can start with this. Fish Health Through Slime

 

[KoleTang]

Thanks for the info Paul. I'm assuming the bottom two pipes are a recirculating venturi and the top two are water in/out? Is there a bubble plate or any inner workings that aren't visible?

I'll pick up that book first thing when it comes out.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

I would like more worms also, but it is not my company

When we make any change to our blends it is not done without much research. When we originally began adding active cultures of beneficial bacteria to our foods in early 2013 it was shunned by many and made fun of by my competitors as a gimmick.

Now after several groundbreaking breeding projects such as the G. personatus angels announced at MACNA 2014 and last weeks melanurus wrasse post ( Rising Tide Conservation Updates: Breaking The Internet: Check Out Our Wrasses! (safe for work) ) the food industry is watching every move LRS makes. Now other food makers are adding "probiotics" because some other brands of foods in my LFS freezer now say "probiotics" on the label when that same package did not a few months ago.

We began to add blackworms and marine fish eggs to our Fish Frenzy® blend to bolster that product's reputation to get finicky fish eating faster. Not only has it done that but it has also had an incredible effect of boosting spawns and the hatch rates of clownfish as indicated on various forums with photographic examples.

When adding a "whole food" such as eggs and blackworms we were mindful not to disrupt the balance of proteins and fats as recommended to us by marine biologists. In a captive aquarium fish cannot swim and exercise as they would on the reef so excessive fatty deposits can be a real problem if the diet is too rich in the wrong types of fats. Obviously, adding 2-3x as many blackworms would make fish go insane when fed our foods, but long term it may or may not have deleterious effects.

As Paul knows blackworms are expensive, delicate to keep for more than a couple weeks, and fragile to process and freeze. I appreciate Paul's insights and conversations we have had and one cannot argue with his results. However when making commercial food for the masses we try to balance optimal nutrition with affordability. More blackworms might make the food better, but it would cost more.

At LRS we are proud that even as we continue to add ingredients such as lab quality beta carotene supplements (for pigmentation enhancement, immunity and fertility boosting properties), active cultures of probiotics, LIVE California black worms, PE Mysis® and fresh marine fish eggs, etc we have not had a wholesale price increase on a pack of food since the start of our company in 2012. Our 8 oz pack of food is still the best bargain in the marketplace when you divide ingredients and cost per ounce. We have added these costly ingredients but remain committed to get the highest quality food to the masses at a price everyone can afford.

I didn't meant to turn this into an LRS plug but I just got home from a 10 hour drive from Reef A Palooza. Since so many fans thanked us for what we do every day I felt the need to jump in and thank those who posted previously. Paul's preachings may be unorthodox but when I approached him about the blackworms his opinion echoed the sentiments of many others who felt the same way. Blackworms have a huge following in the breeding community as a "secret weapon" to boost the metabolism and weight of broodstock.

 

[Paul B]

Thank you Larry. LRS foods are excellent and I still use them as Larry gave me some to try. My fish are still smiling. Blackworms are the most expensive food I use, much more expensive than say clams which are one of the cheapest, especially if you get large chowder clams besides fish food, you can't do much with those suckers. But they are excellent fish food. I suppliment everything I feed with worms because I always have and usually have good results. Larry's food with the added worms are excellent and it would be hard to find better in a commercial product. It may even be better than what I normally feed because it is probably more balanced but I am not a nutritionalist, (or a gymnast).

I'm assuming the bottom two pipes are a recirculating venturi and the top two are water in/out?

That is correct. I also built the venturi and the water enters on an angle and swirls up the skimmer, there is no need for anything in side.

 

[Paul B]

Now other food makers are adding "probiotics" because some other brands of foods in my LFS freezer now say "probiotics" on the label when that same package did not a few months ago.

Probiotics are added to some foods just as garlic is added to some foods because it gives the consumer a feeling like they are getting something healthy. Just the sound of "Pro" biotics makes you feel healthy. My doctor belongs to a group called "Pro Health" as opposed to "Sickly Surgeons" just because it sounds better. Sickly Surgeons may be excellent doctors, even better than Pro Health Doctors, they just don't have a good advertising team. They invented artificial probiotics for human diets because Humans eat things such as Twinkies, ice cream, pie, Spam, chewing gum, bologna, instant whatever, etc. Human digestive systems were designed to eat some roots, a little meat , insects and fish occasionally. We didn't need pro anything and we most likely couldn't pronounce it much less spell it. We said things like Ugh, bug and Supermodel as we didn't go to much school then probably because of the saber tooth tiger thing. Fish fed the correct diet already come with the proper stomach "biotics" to digest that food.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

I may disagree with you a little bit on the efficacy of beneficial bacteria added to foods for ornamentals. This isn't the same as garlic and the myths behind that as an additive in foods. At best garlic stimulates a feeding response, nothing more. Of course I have a slight bias as a manufacturer but I have spent almost 3 years studying the topic. Fish DO have naturally occurring beneficial gut flora (bacteria) to aid in the digestion of foods and the absorption of nutrients. Depending on their area of collection and species the strains of bacteria can vary. However, due to the stresses of collection, trans-shipping, wholesalers purging their gut before shipping, medications in QT, etc these gut levels can be disrupted and diminished. As you know getting a new fish eating promptly can be half the battle to successful acclimation of new arrivals. Helping to boost the naturally occurring gut flora has been shown to have profound effects in development, resisting pathogens and maintaining metabolism. Study after study over the past decade has demonstrated this in aquaculture for the shellfish and fish grown for our consumption. It is now crossing over to the raising of ornamental fish for our hobby with published works dating back to 2009, maybe prior.

Here are a couple examples:

Probiotics significantly increase growth and health of larval clownfish ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Fish on Probiotics Grow Up Healthier » Fish on Probiotics Grow Up HealthierBlog Home | TFH Magazine Blog | TFH Magazine®

You can make the argument that bacteria supplementation has the most benefit for developing larvae and I would not disagree with you based on a lot of the current studies. At LRS a large portion of our efforts are focused on broodstock diet enhancement for breeding trials that are underway, like the one mentioned above. However, we have many clients who have mature fish that have experienced reversal of HLLE, and other ailments. Is it simply the diverse nutrient panel or is it a combination of diverse ingredients AND beneficial bacteria? It would require lab studies against a "control" group which would be lengthy and expensive for us to perform. The next closest thing for us to do is supply foods to various facilities and let them report back to us their results. Based on inferring data from other studies done it certainly shows a lot of promise and seems to be working well thus far. You don't need to take my word for it since there is a ton of data online.

Anyone can google "Probiotics in Aquaculture Diets" and scroll through the dozens of studies with posted findings such as easier digestion of foods, increased nutrient absorption of foods, enhanced immune system, and the production of compounds which inhibit pathogens. There are reams of data out there and new studies done every day since the future of our hobby rests in sustainability.

Paul there is a lot of exciting stuff surrounding supplementation of diets going on right now in the industry. Your fish are just so old and set in their ways they may be hard to sway. :thumb:

 

[Paul B]

Not only are my fish old, but so am I. I can see where newly collected fish will have reduced bacteria in their guts, especially if they have been dosed with medications. Then, like in us, a pro biotic would be effective. But after the fish has been in our tank for a few weeks or 20 years, it should have acquired the correct bacteria and no longer need it, although it wouldn't hurt. I take it myself (along with fish oil and diatom powder, yes, I know, don't ask) I am not sure about garlic as I have never needed it for anything except last nights linguini and clams. You know more about fish food nutrition than I do, but I know more about fish health through food than most researchers unless they have had a tank for 10 or 15 years and not just worked in a lab and did a few projects that last a few weeks or months. That is not even the life span of a canker sore on the lip of an amphipod. Good food (as you sell) is all that is needed to keep a fish healthy although you can add all sorts of things. I think the absolute best thing you add to your food is whole worms. I think worms alone would be much better than garlic or probiotics. Just my theory of course that I probably came up with 40 years into my 60 years of fish keeping. I rarely think of fish as newly acquired specimens because that is a week in their 15 or 20 year lifespans. If a fish doesn't "want" to eat even though it's proper food is available, there is usually something wrong with it or it's surroundings and I don't know if Pro Biotics would help. :crutch: I rarely, if ever get a fish that won't eat and I believe that is because the conditions in my tank are very natural and not sterile like many tanks.
Many people get a fish such as a copperband butterfly or mandarin and post that it won't eat even though I tried "everything" from flakes to pellets to mealworms to canary food to Alpo no avail. I have had probably 25 copperbands and they all ate worms. That is what they eat in the sea and if they won't eat them in your tank, it is your fault, or something in the tank, or the way the fish was collected not the fish who was doing fine in the sea minding his own business.
Fish keeping is very simple, Whole foods = healthy fish just like spawning fish means healthy fish and, OK I can't think of another analogy. :yo: This is not rocket scientist although rocket scientists can also keep fish.
References:

Me:

 

[reefwiser]

Larry I am glad you are keeping your foods update and include the last east research on what our fish need. We can always do a better job in keeping our fish healthy.

 

[Paul B]

Larry, those are some interesting studies you linked and I didn't know about them. I wonder what they were feeding those fish besides pro biotics and if it was the fishes normal diet. I would be curious to know that. If you are feeding an adult fish something like flakes, and you add clams along with pro biotics, they would be healthier. Or I imagine if you were just feeding flakes and added Pro Biotics they would still get healthy. I think, but I don't know. Time to feed yogurt to my fish

 

[ReefFrenzy]

What is really interesting Paul is that the aquaculture of shellfish and food fishes for people to consume is one of the largest and most rapidly expanding industries around the globe. There is a lot of money spent on research in this area to try and increase the productivity and harvests of shrimp, scallops, tilapia, etc. If these creatures can be raised healthier, stronger and possibly faster than amounts produced and sold at the market will increase profits. That is why the money and studies have been done in aquaculture. It is BIG business and billions of dollars a year.

In the ornamental side we (companies) don't have the budgets to expend that kind of cash on research, however we can LEARN from what the folks on the other side of the fence are doing and apply the process to marine ornamentals.

I know this got a little off topic because raising larvae on probiotic based foods (or bacteria dosed water) is not the same as long term care of captive fish but in terms of digestibility of nutrients and inhibiting of pathogen growth supplementation does seem to have merit. This is where our work at LRS goes hand in hand with the Rising Tide Conservation Project and research in Florida at the Tropical Aqua Lab. We supply them food for research and testing when they have a breakthrough such as this one breeding wrasses they let us know their thoughts on what effect diet had on the egg count, larval strength, etc. Rising Tide Conservation Updates: Breaking The Internet: Check Out Our Wrasses! (safe for work)

Thanks for writing back Paul.....I was beginning to think my last 3 years spent on my passion were all done in vain cause Paul through the BS flag :becky: You stated above that I knew more than you about nutrition...I wouldn't go that far to say that. I just have the right folks on speed dial!


Now to pack and ship....

 

[Paul B]

I just have the right folks on speed dial!

I am trying to get Claudia Schiffer on speed dial. But no luck yet.

 

[BryanB]

Paul how do you feel about local collected tidal fish clams shrimp and such. For reference I live 5 miles from the Gulf of Mexico in south Florida.

 

[Paul B]

I
don't understand the question. I collect those things and eat them.

 

[BryanB]

Collect chop feed. My tank as well as myself. Do you see any reason not to feed the tank stuff I collect.

 

[Paul B]

No, I don't see any reason not to do that. In the summer I collect some of my food for me and the tank. I also collect plenty of amphipods and dump them in the tank

 

[Tabasco1]

Nice write up and great to see LRS jumping in.

I happen to live in proximity to lakes and streams where mysis shrimp occur. Do you know if there are any special collection or cleaning that need to take place in order to make safe since these are freshwater? Or can I just scoop up, quick rinse and feed?

 

[Paul B]

Scoop them up, lie to them that everything is going to be OK, and throw them into your tank. You do not need to do anything to them.

 

[kodi419]

Paul, I almost pee'd my pants reading your article (post) tonight. You are a true delight, I wish we lived closer. I would love to meet you in person!

 

[Eienna]

I want to get Reef Frenzy for my "babies" but nobody around here seems to sell it yet >_<

Culturing my own worms is unfortunately out of the question for the moment.