Why Fish in Captivity get Sick

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Paulie069

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The concept of probiotics IN FISH seems interesting and useful. I've got a copy of Paul's book, so I'm down with the usage of probiotics (worms, clams, etc.) to reestablish gut flora/fauna in fish.


There are studies on how raising children in cleaner/more sterile environments MAY (capital letters for emphasis) cause food allergies/sensitivities. It's called the hygiene hypothesis!

Also...I'm fairly certain that you're not being deliberately antivaxx (and any such conversation should be had with me via PM with a moderator present), but I want to point out that the antivax community rallied (and continues to rally) around a now retracted paper linking autism with vaccines.

Oh! Also, autism and asperger's got lumped together into Autism Spectrum Disorder (and man do I hate the "disorder" part). I can't help but wonder though, if the "increase" in people with autism may instead be a combination of better/earlier diagnosing, and a lack/refusal of camouflaging/masking by individuals. There's also just been a huge uptick in social acceptance of neurodivergence and mental health (depression, etc.), so it's not as severely something that's the "family secret" that nobody talks about anymore.


Ok boomer. We're in the process of invading this forum as the old fossils get all cranky and complainy about our ballin' new ways; those that can't adapt and evolve...well, y'all should know what dodos are. 4ll ur tanks r belong 2 us. 1337sp34k. Y33T!!!!
Definitely not a fossil brother,,53 still jacked n stacked

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Dorinda

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I bought your book and it's a great read. Very funny stuff in there too.
Thanks again for another great read. I always thought my reef tank and my guts are a lot alike.
I can't eat gluten and I always thought, what are they doing to our crops, that we now can't even eat the simple things.
The doctor's just said IBS for a long time. Till I saw Dr. Oz say something about people having trouble digesting gluten. I didn't know what gluten was, but I quickly found out. No wonder I could figure out what was giving me my problem, it's in everything!!!!!
Thanks again for all your help to so many people.
 

JGT

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I let the water run slowly into their container for a while then pour the whole thing into a course fish net. Run water over it then let it crain and "slightly" squeeze it to get out excess water.
Then I dump it into their container after I washed it and it looks like this. This also eliminates those little mites that grow in there for some reason but those things, being insects float so they are easy to wash out.
None of these things will escape because they won't go where it is dry like your underwear drawer.
Then I put some PVC window screen or mesh on top, put on some dry cat food. Spray it with water and cover it so your cat don't eat it.
In two days the worms cover the screen and I use a butter knife. Not the one my wife will use for breakfast, and I scrape up the worms to feed.
You only need a few a few times a week as these should not be their main diet.
washed worms.jpg


Screened worms.jpg
What’s the purpose of the PVC screen?
 

Smarkow

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On the subject of Autism.
I know to younger folks it will seem crazy but growing up in the 1970's-1980's I had never even heard of Autism! I never met a kid in school that had it and I don't remember the subject ever coming up on the news. Then in the 90s this problem just seemed to be happening to kids everywhere.
I now have two nephews with it and they are the first in several generations of the family to have it.

I did some research on it and found that in the 80's only 1 in 1000 kids had Autism and today it's 16 in 1000. Whats changed? It could be our diets as PaulB suggested or it could be one of the newer vaccines. I know myself and almost every kid had all our Vaccine shots growing up but I have no idea if something has been added or changed in the last 30 years. At one point I thought it had to be related to all the TV and video games kids play but I now feel confident that is not the case. Some people say it's just that we are more aware of the signs of it. Nope my wife has worked in the Medical field since the mid 1980s and she says that what she see's today is nothing like what it was when she started.
Could it be Pollution, processed foods, the list goes on. It's one of those mysteries that I wish they would solve.
Background on the Autism/Vaccine nonsense... not meant to be argumentative, just informative :)

A British researcher named Andrew Wakefield (whose research was being funded by a lawyer trying to sue companies making vaccines, and who did not disclose this financial conflict of interest) falsified data and lied about methods in a 12 patient “case series” (among the weakest forms of research) claiming a causal link between the MMR vaccine and autism. In a separate incident, he experiment on children without obtaining informed consent from their parents. His research misconduct was so severe that his medical license was revoked.

The reasons people “believe” Autism and Vaccines are linked are that 1) both vaccination and autism diagnosis happen in early childhood and 2) it suits the political interests of certain groups to perpetuate this myth.

While the true causes of Autism do remain elusive, please know that vaccines have been repeatedly shown NOT to play any role. Similarly, ice cream sales and crime rates both increase in the summer months, due to warm weather, but are not causally related to each-other.

Thanks

 

flampton

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I'm a bit confused on why you would believe it's the bacteria over just being decent nutrition? The ability to colonize a gut is determined by the parameters of that gut and the already established population. Terrestrial white worms and soil are highly unlikely to deliver bacteria that is 'probiotic' to a marine fish.

And as far as priming the immune system, well they've got plenty of that in the system already with bacteria everywhere in the niche.

So your success is more likely to be a combination of nutrition with decent ecology. Especially because you're using seawater too. Not the best because it's temperate but there would be plenty of bacteria (and other microbes) present that will be fine at higher temperatures.

You build that ecology you'll have organisms that will consume parasites.

Oh and the good old days stuff has to go...For instance that Vietnam war anecdote was way off base compared to what was actually happening as 70.6% of US troop hospitalizations were due to disease! (15.6% casualty, 13.8% non battle injury) So yeah I think you were just lucky.
 
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creativeballance

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@flampton - are you trying to argue with everyone?

You really need to chill out, and realize that you are on a Forum designed for hobbyists. A lot of the posts that I've seeing you argue with people about lately, they are sharing what works for them. You need to sit down, quit being so pedantic, and let people have discussions instead of using a megaphone to tell everyone that it must be peer-reviewed!
 

flampton

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@flampton - are you trying to argue with everyone?

You really need to chill out, and realize that you are on a Forum designed for hobbyists. A lot of the posts that I've seeing you argue with people about lately, they are sharing what works for them. You need to sit down, quit being so pedantic, and let people have discussions instead of using a megaphone to tell everyone that it must be peer-reviewed!

Ah so you want a make believe forum where you just get to say what you want... That's fine just don't dress it up in science speak. Why do that unless you want people to believe you? Don't try to earn belief by saying now I know why something works. It may not and you'll have people believing the wrong things. Why is this so hard to understand??
 

creativeballance

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@flamp- how about because you come off as a rude know it all. You are not fostering discussion.
Last time I checked, success typically comes first in any endeavor. It is only after that success occurs that you take the time to understand why.

If you think the OP is wrong, let's take what everyone has experienced following PaulB's recommendations. The recommendations are to feed fish black worms, white worms, and occasional whole clams, muscles, and other shelled animals.

1) Fish are not quarantined, and are often acquired with illness.
2) Medication or other intervention is not needed for fish to overcome their ailments.
3) Fish are healthy enough to spawn, and will do so if they have an appropriate mate in the system.

With this criteria, which is PROVEN to work, YOU tell me why it works. I want you to send over a PEER REVIEWED paper that covers every possible explanation other than gut biome health for the 3 facts that are the result of this fish diet.

When you have that, then you can enter the discussion again.
 

Jadieco

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I let the water run slowly into their container for a while then pour the whole thing into a course fish net. Run water over it then let it crain and "slightly" squeeze it to get out excess water.
Then I dump it into their container after I washed it and it looks like this. This also eliminates those little mites that grow in there for some reason but those things, being insects float so they are easy to wash out.
None of these things will escape because they won't go where it is dry like your underwear drawer.
Then I put some PVC window screen or mesh on top, put on some dry cat food. Spray it with water and cover it so your cat don't eat it.
In two days the worms cover the screen and I use a butter knife. Not the one my wife will use for breakfast, and I scrape up the worms to feed.
You only need a few a few times a week as these should not be their main diet.
washed worms.jpg


Screened worms.jpg

We have a vermiculture set up for composting - will our red wriggler worms work instead of these white worms? If not, where might one acquire the white worms (in Canada)

Thanks!
 
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Paul B

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Flampton. Thank you for posting. As you know the fish we buy are swimming in either copper or some other anti parasitic medication. That kills bacteria and parasites. If we then put that fish in quarantine and feed it dry food or foods without living bacteria like most store bought commercial aquarium food is, the fish will never develop the correct stomach flora.

I didn't make that up, just read that article or any article on aquatic nutrition.
People who medicate also kill stomach flora which is why we have disease forums.
Fish also need to be in contact with disease pathogens occasionally to stay immune to them. I also didn't make that up. You can research it but I wrote numerous articles on it that I found from scientists as I am an electrician.

I also may have been "lucky" in Viet Nam but the year I was there I personally didn't see anyone get sick. Not one guy. "None" of my guys and not one of the 200 or so guys I was with on Firebases or just running around in the jungle.

I would know as I was a Sargent and would have had to call a helicopter to evacuate the guy.

I was also "lucky" enough to have crashed in a helicopter twice and got myself blown up and knocked out for 20 minutes causing my now hearing problems and probably PTSD.

Some guys may have gotten malaria, I don't know but that was a court marshall offence because if you took the pills, you didn't get it. One big orange pill on Monday and a small white pill every day.

The 70.6% of hospitalizations you read about was from the guys in the rear areas like Saigon and the vast majority of those were venereal diseases and you know where they got that from.
Most people in Viet Nam were not combat troops and were in supply or some other occupation in a non combat area.

Unfortunately, they linked "those" diseases with all combat troops as I was.

The only other fairly common ailment was jungle rot. Many guys never took off their boots and their socks rotted on them causing a pretty bad skin reaction. That was also why we didn't have underwear as it is cotton and would rot right off especially in monsoon season when it never stopped raining. I boiled my socks whenever I could using C-4 explosive or helicopter fuel and an ammo can.

In WW2 and every other war "those" types of diseases were rampant. I was never in a rear area so I was never exposed to any of that.

In the Civil war and the Revolutionary war a large portion of the troops also died from disease. but not "Combat" troops in Viet Nam. I know because I was there and know first hand and that guy who wrote those statistics probably was not.

I also know that in the first battle I was in we lost about 54 of us out of about 220.
The book says we lost 25 of us and had about 58 wounded. The book is wrong. I know the guy who wrote the book and I speak on it with him. I personally put way more than 25 guys in body bags myself. ( I got two Bronze Stars for Valor.)
So I know my Viet Nam history rather well.

 
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Paul B

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What’s the purpose of the PVC screen?

The PVC screen is so the worms climb out on it and they are easier to collect. Otherwise they are so entwined in dirt it is hard to get them out.

I have no idea where to get worms in Canada. Sorry. I just get them on Amazon.

As for my ideas on this thread. As I said, most of it comes from articles that I read. I have also posted other threads on here with links to the scientific studies on fish immunity: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

I don't make this stuff up. The rest of it comes from my 60 years of fish keeping and the last 40 of those years my fish have never been sick.
 
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Paul B

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My son is severely autistic, functions at a mental age of 18+ months. I set up the aquarium in the den for him and he enjoys it.


I am so sorry to hear this. I am sort of familiar with very sick children although not with Autism. I played Santa Claus for years on NYU Childrens Cancer hospital in Manhattan. The most severe cases were there and about 40% of them never made it home. It was the hardest thing I had to do although not nearly as hard as the parents who were there living with these kids and many, many infants. It broke my heart and I will be praying for you and your Son.
 

mindme

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@flampton - are you trying to argue with everyone?

You really need to chill out, and realize that you are on a Forum designed for hobbyists. A lot of the posts that I've seeing you argue with people about lately, they are sharing what works for them. You need to sit down, quit being so pedantic, and let people have discussions instead of using a megaphone to tell everyone that it must be peer-reviewed!


I do not see the issue, sorry.
 

flampton

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@flamp- how about because you come off as a rude know it all. You are not fostering discussion.
Last time I checked, success typically comes first in any endeavor. It is only after that success occurs that you take the time to understand why.

If you think the OP is wrong, let's take what everyone has experienced following PaulB's recommendations. The recommendations are to feed fish black worms, white worms, and occasional whole clams, muscles, and other shelled animals.

1) Fish are not quarantined, and are often acquired with illness.
2) Medication or other intervention is not needed for fish to overcome their ailments.
3) Fish are healthy enough to spawn, and will do so if they have an appropriate mate in the system.

With this criteria, which is PROVEN to work, YOU tell me why it works. I want you to send over a PEER REVIEWED paper that covers every possible explanation other than gut biome health for the 3 facts that are the result of this fish diet.

When you have that, then you can enter the discussion again.
Lol

If you read again I didn't say he was lying, I said the reasoning was likely not correct. Why does this cause so much problems for you? Why must it be gut bacteria? What's your cognitive dissonance? Why do you have a problem with me as a professional? Do you have the same problems when Randy corrects something in chemistry based on his knowledge?

Flampton. Thank you for posting. As you know the fish we buy are swimming in either copper or some other anti parasitic medication. That kills bacteria and parasites. If we then put that fish in quarantine and feed it dry food or foods without living bacteria like most store bought commercial aquarium food is, the fish will never develop the correct stomach flora.

I didn't make that up, just read that article or any article on aquatic nutrition.
People who medicate also kill stomach flora which is why we have disease forums.
Fish also need to be in contact with disease pathogens occasionally to stay immune to them. I also didn't make that up. You can research it but I wrote numerous articles on it that I found from scientists as I am an electrician.

I also may have been "lucky" in Viet Nam but the year I was there I personally didn't see anyone get sick. Not one guy. "None" of my guys and not one of the 200 or so guys I was with on Firebases or just running around in the jungle.

I would know as I was a Sargent and would have had to call a helicopter to evacuate the guy.

I was also "lucky" enough to have crashed in a helicopter twice and got myself blown up and knocked out for 20 minutes causing my now hearing problems and probably PTSD.

Some guys may have gotten malaria, I don't know but that was a court marshall offence because if you took the pills, you didn't get it. One big orange pill on Monday and a small white pill every day.

The 70.6% of hospitalizations you read about was from the guys in the rear areas like Saigon and the vast majority of those were venereal diseases and you know where they got that from.
Most people in Viet Nam were not combat troops and were in supply or some other occupation in a non combat area.

Unfortunately, they linked "those" diseases with all combat troops as I was.

The only other fairly common ailment was jungle rot. Many guys never took off their boots and their socks rotted on them causing a pretty bad skin reaction. That was also why we didn't have underwear as it is cotton and would rot right off especially in monsoon season when it never stopped raining. I boiled my socks whenever I could using C-4 explosive or helicopter fuel and an ammo can.

In WW2 and every other war "those" types of diseases were rampant. I was never in a rear area so I was never exposed to any of that.

In the Civil war and the Revolutionary war a large portion of the troops also died from disease. but not "Combat" troops in Viet Nam. I know because I was there and know first hand and that guy who wrote those statistics probably was not.

I also know that in the first battle I was in we lost about 54 of us out of about 220.
The book says we lost 25 of us and had about 58 wounded. The book is wrong. I know the guy who wrote the book and I speak on it with him. I personally put way more than 25 guys in body bags myself. ( I got two Bronze Stars for Valor.)
So I know my Viet Nam history rather well.



Yeah the VA and their notorious not knowing what happened in Vietnam. 40,000 malaria cases in the army alone. The skin diseases, the amputations, I'm not sure what you get out of portraying Vietnam health and our troops as nothing but a mess. And you don't get hospitalized for venereal infections.

And the idea that copper, antiparasitic, antibiotics kills all bacteria is just not grounded in any science. The fact is if you run a healthy reef you're looking at bacteria levels of at least 100,000 to 4,000,000 per ml of water. The substrate levels are much higher in concentration. If you added any sea substrate, such as live rock, well those organisms e.g. copepods, algaes, would have a much more natural bacterial population for the fishes guts.

I ask again why it can't be just better nutrition combined with better ecology? What is the hang up on bacteria? Why is it so important that it has to be bacteria? I mean as a bacteriologist I would be the absolute first to say it was because that's my passion, but when it's unlikely I have to say so....

And finally autistics are not 'sick'. Stop saying that!!!
 
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Paul B

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I never said Autistic people are sick. I did say, if you don't agree with me about bacteria or lack of it causing disease don't agree with me. I published articles over many years with numerous links to the papers I researched and i won't link them again. Run your tank the way you want.

Write your own reason why fish get sick or write your own book... I did. But no one is forced to read it.

Were you in Nam? How old is your reef tank?
 

GoingBroke88

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Background on the Autism/Vaccine nonsense... not meant to be argumentative, just informative :)

A British researcher named Andrew Wakefield (whose research was being funded by a lawyer trying to sue companies making vaccines, and who did not disclose this financial conflict of interest) falsified data and lied about methods in a 12 patient “case series” (among the weakest forms of research) claiming a causal link between the MMR vaccine and autism. In a separate incident, he experiment on children without obtaining informed consent from their parents. His research misconduct was so severe that his medical license was revoked.

The reasons people “believe” Autism and Vaccines are linked are that 1) both vaccination and autism diagnosis happen in early childhood and 2) it suits the political interests of certain groups to perpetuate this myth.

While the true causes of Autism do remain elusive, please know that vaccines have been repeatedly shown NOT to play any role. Similarly, ice cream sales and crime rates both increase in the summer months, due to warm weather, but are not causally related to each-other.

Thanks


Thank you Smarkow for posting this. It's nice to see that someone has actually looked into the background of this and posted some decent information. Andrew Wakefield was the one who initially perpetuated this idea of the vaccine autism link. Since then, it's been proven that he falsified data and the journal that published his work decided to retract his article. Multiple medical societies have tried to replicate his findings but haven't found any link between vaccines and autism. The UK rescinded his medical license 10 years ago. The proposed mechanism by which vaccines lead to autism was through mercury-containing thimerosal. But childhood vaccines don't even contain thimerosal.

None of this has prevented Jenny McCarthy and countless others from promoting the vaccine and autism link. It's undeniably true that there are higher autism rates now than in the past. Some of that is related to the efforts of Early Intervention (that emphasizes early detection and treatment, which is the best prognostic indicator for autism). There are also differences in the way we classify autism these days. Plus, families with autistic children are more likely to have them treated in the community or within the regular school district, rather than institutionalizing them (where they would have little contact with the regular population). And it's absolutely true that there may be other environmental factors that are contributing to higher rates of autism, but vaccines don't seem to be the culprit here.

Unfortunately, parents who have children affected by autism (or any other condition for that matter) will always be looking for an explanation and a possible cure. It's in our nature to need answers and nobody wants to feel powerless. This has led to countless instances of charlatans selling false hope to these desperate families.

I know this is a bit off-topic, and I don't disagree with Paul B's assertion that a more natural diet will strengthen a fish's natural immunity. Nor do I disagree with the gut flora model of health. And there's definitely scientific data to support the point that was raised that excessive early childhood cleanliness may be an explanation for the rise in allergies that we see.

But I felt that it was worth discussing this vaccine point due to the current worldwide health crisis. There will undoubtedly be a ton of vaccine-related talk in the next year, and it's critical to understand the origin of the anti-vax movement. As Smarkow pointed out, there's a big difference between temporal correlation and causality.
 

flampton

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I never said Autistic people are sick. I did say, if you don't agree with me about bacteria or lack of it causing disease don't agree with me. I published articles over many years with numerous links to the papers I researched and i won't link them again. Run your tank the way you want.

Write your own reason why fish get sick or write your own book... I did. But no one is forced to read it.

Were you in Nam? How old is your reef tank?

This is all appeal to authority. And so readers can take that as they will.

Not in Nam but can read. Reef tank is 2 months old. And?

And I did write within this thread how fish may stay healthier. Better nutrition and better ecology within the aquarium walls. Don't need to write a book to get that point across.
 
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