Why Fish in Captivity get Sick

Paulie069

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This is all appeal to authority. And so readers can take that as they will.

Not in Nam but can read. Reef tank is 2 months old. And?

And I did write within this thread how fish may stay healthier. Better nutrition and better ecology within the aquarium walls. Don't need to write a book to get that point across.
Chill my brother take deep breath it’s all good can’t make everyone happy,, just feel the love of reefing enjoy your time on earth
Much love brother
 

xxkenny90xx

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@flampton @Paul B im not sure what the argument is about. Feeding these foods leads to healthier fish who are disease resistant. That's good enough for me. Nutrition? Bacteria? Whatever! I'll just feed my fish the good stuff...

I won't touch on the Nam thing, I wasn't there
 

PeterLL

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We took anti malaria pills because we had no immunity to it. The people we were fighting had no pills and they looked mighty healthy to me. They were exposed to it all their lives.

Paul what????

Look I hate to speak for others, and am happy for them to correct me as this is just an assumption, but I am *fairly* sure the half a million Africans dying a year from Malarai wouldn't have minded a wee antimalarial even though they have grown up with Malaria their whole lives.
 
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Paul B

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Flampton. I think better nutrition will result in healthier fish but that was not my purpose of this thread.

As I said, I am an electrician and much of this is above my pay grade so I also read a lot.
Gut microbes almost 95% control our immunity, general health and mood. That is just something I researched and due to my experience with a very old, immune reef tank, I figured I would post it.

A healthy diet alone will do nothing for immunity. For that a fish needs to be exposed to pathogens just as we need booster shots for various ailments.
A human after chemo or radiation has almost no immunity which is why they are kept in isolation. I am sure you know this.

Here is one article I researched about gut microbes.



Feeding sterile foods are IMO not going to do anything for immunity hence all the disease threads. My fish which have been eating living food for over 40 years never get sick. That is not a scientific analysis or proof but no scientific study lasts as long as my tank is running with healthy fish and no one that I know of has a 50 year old quarantined and medicated tank so we don't know how that would work. Actually I doubt anyone has an old quarantined medicated tank where the fish are all spawning and only dying of old age as I have asked many times and no one will tell me.

Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote
 
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Paul B

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Look I hate to speak for others, and am happy for them to correct me as this is just an assumption, but I am *fairly* sure the half a million Africans dying a year from Malarai wouldn't have minded a wee antimalarial even though they have grown up with Malaria their whole lives.

I don't know anything about people in Africa having malaria. Nothing at all. :cool: I am sure with the one billion so many millions of people living there a half million of them get malaria and everything else. I know I had to take a drug every day and I don't think the people we were fighting were taking any, but I am guessing.
None of my men developed that disease as I would have had to evacuate them, and I never did.

I only evacuated people wounded or killed. It was 50+ years ago so I assume some guys got bitten by snakes, scorpions etc. I remember going to a rear area to get a tooth pulled but never for being sick.

I am sure guys got sick, but I said, "I" never seen any of them. I have heard of all the venereal diseases but that was from reading after I got home.
 
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PeterLL

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I don't know anything about people in Africa having malaria. Nothing at all. :cool: I am sure with the one billion so many millions of people living there a half million of them get malaria and everything else. I know I had to take a drug every day and I don't think the people we were fighting were taking any, but I am guessing.
None of my men developed that disease as I would have had to evacuate them, and I never did.

I only evacuated people wounded or killed. It was 50+ years ago so I assume some guys got bitten by snakes, scorpions etc. I remember going to a rear area to get a tooth pulled but never for being sick.

I am sure guys got sick, but I said, "I" never seen any of them. I have heard of all the venereal diseases but that was from reading after I got home.

Honestly I am just sort of confused as it seemed to imply that the Vietnamese Army had no issue with Malaria as they grew up there, while you guy's who hadn't had to take Antimalarials to protect yourself. So why does this not apply to Africans making it such a big killer?
Also, a quick researching showed it was a huge problem for the Vietnamese Army and they had to get Chinese help to produce Antimalarials for their army
 

flampton

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I didn't say it was all nutrition yet it plays a role.


Tldr Omega 3 helped survival of yellow croaker from crypt infection.

Now extrapolation of published research needs to be done carefully. It is without a doubt that fish have gut bacteria, and without a doubt some strains are beneficial while others not so much. Those effects are not just based around fish health, for example if you have a probiotic that increases feed conversion we would see that as a benefit. However this might not increase the actual health of the fish, and a lot of times can be detrimental. Also when we look at probiotic studies they use large amounts of a single bacterium for therapy. This is not the same as the soil biome at all.

And when we add a immune system to the discussion it gets really complicated. The reason our immune system is most active in the gut is because we have many billions of bacteria there. We need to keep them out or we die. And when we die they start eating us from the inside. These immune reactions however will not help against non gut associated pathogens. So you're not protected from many many pathogens. Even a slight change in some bacteria you're exposed to in the gut will lead to disease. You have plenty of E.coli in your gut but if you go to Mexico there is good odds that if you drink the water you'll get a different strain of E. coli which will lead to travelers diarrhea.

Which brings me to the aforementioned trout.


These were fed large amounts of a single bacterium and they saw resistance to ich and Aeromonas bestiarum. This isn't totally surprising because if you deliver enough unknown antigen(s) to the gut you can cause immune system upregulation. Thus they knew this and only looked at the innate response in relation to both. Not going to go far down a rabbit hole but the innate response does not have to be linked with B or T cell mediated response. (So not adaptive immunity like a vaccine produces). Now what's interesting is the Aeromonas sobria might have produced cross reactivity to protect against A. bestiarum but they didn't look at that. Also the probiotics in the paper have not been realized in the intervening 12 years as they likely turned out to be not very effective or not cost effective. Also A. sobria can cause disease in other fish and diarrheal diseases in humans so that could be the reason as well :D

The basic facts are that we lose much food to disease whether it be farmed, farm raised, wild, aquacultured, maricultured or wild caught. Just because we wish nature was nicer or harken to the good old days, it just isn't and without antibiotics, vaccinations and other scientific techniques (e.g. sanitation and water treatment) we would be absolutely surrounded by death. And the idea that you can eliminate all disease from an aquarium is groundless, that is until you show that your fish have never ever died. You can make it the most resistant possible though through the aforementioned nutrition and ecology, and proper QT techniques including the use of medicines when required.

And some may say I came into this thread hot... Wasnt sure I was going to address this because I had hoped others noticed but....
You may have missed the early implication by the OP that a person was ignorant because they saw their fish ingest soil and die a day in a half later and make the likely conclusion that there was cause and effect. (There are many pathogens within the soil biome as well as other interactions we can't possibly understand in this situation and to suggest knowing otherwise is irresponsible.). And then avoid that person within this very thread.

@ingchr1 there is a chance that your fish died from soil ingestion, whether it could have been chemical or pathogen mediated we obviously have no idea. Sorry that happened to you!
 

Paulie069

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I didn't say it was all nutrition yet it plays a role.


Tldr Omega 3 helped survival of yellow croaker from crypt infection.

Now extrapolation of published research needs to be done carefully. It is without a doubt that fish have gut bacteria, and without a doubt some strains are beneficial while others not so much. Those effects are not just based around fish health, for example if you have a probiotic that increases feed conversion we would see that as a benefit. However this might not increase the actual health of the fish, and a lot of times can be detrimental. Also when we look at probiotic studies they use large amounts of a single bacterium for therapy. This is not the same as the soil biome at all.

And when we add a immune system to the discussion it gets really complicated. The reason our immune system is most active in the gut is because we have many billions of bacteria there. We need to keep them out or we die. And when we die they start eating us from the inside. These immune reactions however will not help against non gut associated pathogens. So you're not protected from many many pathogens. Even a slight change in some bacteria you're exposed to in the gut will lead to disease. You have plenty of E.coli in your gut but if you go to Mexico there is good odds that if you drink the water you'll get a different strain of E. coli which will lead to travelers diarrhea.

Which brings me to the aforementioned trout.


These were fed large amounts of a single bacterium and they saw resistance to ich and Aeromonas bestiarum. This isn't totally surprising because if you deliver enough unknown antigen(s) to the gut you can cause immune system upregulation. Thus they knew this and only looked at the innate response in relation to both. Not going to go far down a rabbit hole but the innate response does not have to be linked with B or T cell mediated response. (So not adaptive immunity like a vaccine produces). Now what's interesting is the Aeromonas sobria might have produced cross reactivity to protect against A. bestiarum but they didn't look at that. Also the probiotics in the paper have not been realized in the intervening 12 years as they likely turned out to be not very effective or not cost effective. Also A. sobria can cause disease in other fish and diarrheal diseases in humans so that could be the reason as well :D

The basic facts are that we lose much food to disease whether it be farmed, farm raised, wild, aquacultured, maricultured or wild caught. Just because we wish nature was nicer or harken to the good old days, it just isn't and without antibiotics, vaccinations and other scientific techniques (e.g. sanitation and water treatment) we would be absolutely surrounded by death. And the idea that you can eliminate all disease from an aquarium is groundless, that is until you show that your fish have never ever died. You can make it the most resistant possible though through the aforementioned nutrition and ecology, and proper QT techniques including the use of medicines when required.

And some may say I came into this thread hot... Wasnt sure I was going to address this because I had hoped others noticed but....
You may have missed the early implication by the OP that a person was ignorant because they saw their fish ingest soil and die a day in a half later and make the likely conclusion that there was cause and effect. (There are many pathogens within the soil biome as well as other interactions we can't possibly understand in this situation and to suggest knowing otherwise is irresponsible.). And then avoid that person within this very thread.

@ingchr1 there is a chance that your fish died from soil ingestion, whether it could have been chemical or pathogen mediated we obviously have no idea. Sorry that happened to you!
Your still going huh really 4 paragraphs still trying to prove your point,, please my brother let it go just enjoy and spread good vibes and love,, we’re all reefers here and this site should be a safe haven
Much love and respect to you my brother
Try and spread positivity it makes you feel good
 
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ichthyogeek

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Your still going huh really 4 paragraphs still trying to prove your point,, please my brother let it go just enjoy and spread good vibes and love,, we’re all reefers here and this site should be a safe haven
Much love and respect to you my brother
Try and spread positivity it makes you feel good
...wasn’t your first post in this thread you ragging on literally every generation after yours because we were, and I quote: “bubble wrapped snowflakes now” ?

@flampton , I always appreciate good science posts, ty for that!
 

mindme

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I find the topic of killing beneficial organisms while treating for the bad ones a pretty interesting topic. I've studied up on the topic when it comes to humans and our own guts bacteria. I've never in my life taken an antibiotic and I rarely have stomach issues. She on the other hand has had to have them a few times and she has constant issues with her stomach etc. The antibiotics kill both good and bad germs.

I've been reluctant to do a "treat for everything anyway" quarantine for this reason. It is interesting if there is some real evidence for probiotic type foods. I would love to see some real evidence of this in terms of what specifically the diets are adding and what type of gut bacteria's.

Plus, in humans it's not just about getting the bacteria in your gut. It's about what you eat promotes different types of bacterias. If you eat a lot of sugar, it promotes bad bacteria, while a healthier diet promotes good bacteria. So the type of food given can have effects in that manner also. I would guess wheat binders probably promote bad bacteria while foods high in fat/protein promote better. This however is a guess based on what I've seen for humans.

I don't know what the heck is going on in this thread other than that. Kind of silly really.
 

Paulie069

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...wasn’t your first post in this thread you ragging on literally every generation after yours because we were, and I quote: “bubble wrapped snowflakes now” ?

@flampton , I always appreciate good science posts, ty for that!
Yes it was and I only posted about it once then moved on,, but I stand behind what I said also no reason to pound it into the ground Much love and respect to you my brother
 

mjreefs

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@flampton - are you trying to argue with everyone?

You really need to chill out, and realize that you are on a Forum designed for hobbyists. A lot of the posts that I've seeing you argue with people about lately, they are sharing what works for them. You need to sit down, quit being so pedantic, and let people have discussions instead of using a megaphone to tell everyone that it must be peer-reviewed!

Your still going huh really 4 paragraphs still trying to prove your point,, please my brother let it go just enjoy and spread good vibes and love,, we’re all reefers here and this site should be a safe haven
Much love and respect to you my brother
Try and spread positivity it makes you feel good

I don't know what @flampton did in the other posts, but I don't think he's arguing with everyone or "being rude" with everyone just because he likes to. He knows something, maybe sees something wrong (whether in methodology, reasoning, etc), and posts his sentiments. I personally think that he's on to something and not just swinging ideas left and right just to slam it in everyone's faces. I agree, this is a forum for hobbyists. But as a hobbyist myself, don't you think I have the right to know valuable, scientific information for the proper upkeep of my aquarium and its inhabitants? And I agree that the information presented must be peer-reviewed, or at the very least from sound experiments (since, no researcher would really be interested in just making a peer-reviewed paper for the aquarium hobby). I hope I'm not discrediting @Paul B here, I respect him a lot and is successful in this hobby (and props to Paul B and flampton to have a civil discussion between them, hope that there are no hard feelings). He wrote a book documenting his experiences and tips (correct me if I'm wrong here, haven't read it yet), and would a little correction hurt his success? Of course not! Is his method flawless? Probably not. Stop thinking dissent as something negative - spreading negativity and toxicity in this forum. In fact, I would love people dissent as long as they have the knowledge to back it up. It contributes to the pool of shared knowledge on the hobby in one way or another. It's true that some of us (including me, as biology is not my cup of tea) may have a hard time absorbing this knowledge due to the many technical aspects and jargons, but as long as it is knowledge that would help our growing hobby, I say why not! This site is a safe haven - a safe haven for ideas to fluorish, not just "good vibes" and "positivity."

As a final word to everyone, if you think you know everything you need to know about the hobby, think again. We know so little, yet I believe there are still a lot to be uncovered. I hope everyone here contributes to this ever-growing pool of knowledge for this hobby. Yes, we have to rely on our own experiences and funding to add to this knowledge, I don't think the scientific community will tailor their research around this hobby, but I hope that everyone would engage themselves in meaningful discussions while respecting each other. Cheers!
 
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Paul B

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Honestly I am just sort of confused as it seemed to imply that the Vietnamese Army had no issue with Malaria as they grew up there, while you guy's who hadn't had to take Antimalarials to protect yourself. So why does this not apply to Africans making it such a big killer?

I am no expert on the North Vietnamese Army or their medical issues. It just makes sense to me that they would have at least some immunity from Malaria than an American who was never exposed to it, but I am guessing.

And the idea that you can eliminate all disease from an aquarium is groundless, that is until you show that your fish have never ever died.

That is exactly what I have said multiple times. My fish have never been sick with any communicable disease in over 40 years. They die of old age like they are supposed to. My reef is not only two months old and there have been plenty of opportunity's to introduce diseases.

So if in 40+ years my fish have never been sick, what is it?
I have been writing articles way before computers were invented and never mentioned my fish getting sick except in the early 70s before I figured it out.

No scientific study lasts that long no matter how many degrees the researchers have.
I realize you don't believe me and I am on about 6 or 7 forums and have been since there were forums. I have never been on a disease forum unless I was trying to give advice.

I never medicate unless I get a fish near death for free and I have no hospital or quarantine tank.
I feel l may have found a system that works and I am just trying to teach it to anyone who wants to know.
Many people don't believe me and feel I am living in LaLa land and that is fine.
The disease forum has plenty of fine advice and we can always go there for problems.
 

Rybren

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We have a vermiculture set up for composting - will our red wriggler worms work instead of these white worms? If not, where might one acquire the white worms (in Canada)

Thanks!

I'm in Ottawa and can regularly get white worm cultures at Big Al's. Some of the other stores that cater to fresh water fish get cultures in occasionally; none of the salt water specific stores carry it.
 

WVNed

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When I started keeping freshwater fish they got ich. The old timers I knew told me this.
Your fish have ich because they are stressed. Your tank is off. Fix that and it will go away.
I did and it did.
I wanted a more specific answer than that but never got one. I think they knew you have to find it yourself.

That was in the early 80s. In 2007, I started keeping salt. By then I had a pretty good intuitive grasp of what and what not to do with a fish tank.
I quit keeping freshwater shortly after that because the salt tanks are just so much easier. No rebuilding air pumps and keeping canister and HOB filters clean and going.
I started saltwater with a tiny tank like most people. So I have evolved from 8 gallons to 400 now.
What I do hasn't changed any though.

and now I have insurance. I run UV and ozone on my system, well it mostly it runs itself now. I have to clean the glass, fill things up and clean things. All the methods I found valuable got automated.


Now I just watch the fish and things without angst.




What you feed your tank matters, how much flow you have matters, how much light and water parameters
all matter equally.
You can't get just one right and ignore the others. It is all of them working together that makes a healthy system.

My methods might not work at all for you. They are based on what I decided to keep. That is the really tricky part of this. Doing what is appropriate for what's in your tank.

In the end reefing is the same as making music or gardening or a lot of other things. It takes skills that have to be learned through trial and error, practice and perseverance.

It's like seeing someone play a guitar beautifully and you ask them how they do it. They tell you hold it like this and pluck the strings. That's all there is to it.
 
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Paul B

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Hey John. What are you doing over here? Nice to see you.. As usual some people are trying to beat me up, not much, only slightly and as you know I have plenty of experience with people who don't believe me. :p

I used to go through this a little on that "other" forum but it was the Mods there that made me quit. I did have some friends there that I do miss.

I have been good, getting old. OK older, but still hanging in there. My reef will be fifty in March and by then I will call it a success but I am not sure if I will keep it much longer as my wife is not doing real well and needs a lot more of my care.

I am also getting tired of arguing. :cool:
How have you been?
 

Autonomy

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I'm really sorry to hear that MS has become a part of both your lives. What you've shared here on Reef2Reef, resonates greatly with what you've written in your book (which I purchased back in 2018), and how gut bacteria and health play an essential part in a healthy immune system.

Chapter 3: Keeping Healthy Fish (pg 35-49), played a huge part in changing the way I see food and my fish, which undoubtedly, has played a huge part in the health and lifespan of my fish overall. Together with both the words in your book and those found in the book 'Gut' by Dr Giulia Enders, I've been able to achieve a higher rate of success while keeping fish in quarantine and treatment.

Thanks for the wise words.
 
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