Why Fish in Captivity get Sick

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robbyg

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Robbyg, I don't think anyone knows what it is but you and me know that when we grew up, there were no computers or cell phones so we spent all our time outside playing in the dirt. We dug worms and went fishing, we climbed trees and we ate as bunch of questionable foods.
In those days milk went bad in a couple of days and before we drank it we smelled it because it was often stale.
Today it lasts 2 months. Why? What did they do to it?
We didn't wash our hands very often because we were outside constantly.

While fishing with filthy worms how many times have we stuck the hook into our finger? We just wiped off the blood on our sleeve and kept fishing.
We also fought and got cut. It's hard to get cut on a computer unless you drop it on your foot.

WE also walked or bicycled many places as most families had only one car and your parent had it.
We got a lot of sunshine. That glow that is emitted from your cell phone will not make any vitamin D.
Yep those were the days :)
Got up on Saturday and Sunday morning at 6:00 am and was out of the house by 7am. All my Mom asked of us was to make sure we were home before dark and if not to make sure we called her.
We would be out on our bikes sometimes 10 miles from home out on the mountain sides shooting birds or in the rivers or maybe out at sea fishing. I think if our group of about five disappeared they would have no clue as to where to start looking. We never thought of stuff like snakes or Alligators or sharks as a danger. Yeah we knew they could kill people but no one had ever seen or heard of that except in stories and frankly we just thought hell that's never going to happen to us. So in our minds it was not a major problem. Yep we sucked in so much swamp water and played with all kinds of insects and bugs and practically the only time we could wash our hands was when we got home in the evenings.
 
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robbyg

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A factor to consider with why these diagnoses are showing in greater numbers today is the criterion for diagnosis has changed. This is pretty common in multiple areas of medicine, but as we learn more we are able to detect diseases with greater precision which means we will find more cases.

"The DSM-III was revised in 1987, significantly altering the autism criteria. It broadened the concept of autism by adding a diagnosis at the mild end of the spectrum — pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS) — and dropping the requirement for onset before 30 months. "

.
Yes I am aware of the changes but the simple fact is that I have met many children with Autism and in most cases its prett obvious. Growing up I never saw any kids with these issues. Not to say that they did not exist but they were evidently very rare.
 
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Paul B

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I let the water run slowly into their container for a while then pour the whole thing into a course fish net. Run water over it then let it crain and "slightly" squeeze it to get out excess water.
Then I dump it into their container after I washed it and it looks like this. This also eliminates those little mites that grow in there for some reason but those things, being insects float so they are easy to wash out.
None of these things will escape because they won't go where it is dry like your underwear drawer.
Then I put some PVC window screen or mesh on top, put on some dry cat food. Spray it with water and cover it so your cat don't eat it.
In two days the worms cover the screen and I use a butter knife. Not the one my wife will use for breakfast, and I scrape up the worms to feed.
You only need a few a few times a week as these should not be their main diet.
washed worms.jpg


Screened worms.jpg
 

markfmvl

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There is an actual condition in which people, typically women, have sudden urges to eat dirt. So...maybe that will help?
I have listened to tapes by Dr. Joel Wallach he is a vet, an MD, and a strong proponent of nutrition. He says a craving for dirt is a mineral deficiency. Vitamins and minerals are also a key to health. You can't, in this day and age be certain that you can get all of those nutrients from your food. If it is not in the soil it won't be in the fruit or veggie. I take his supplements they help me feel better.
 

markfmvl

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This reminds me of the quest I am on to create an ecosystem reef. from the microbiological level to the macro level. I got this idea and concept from the ecosystem pond from Greg Wittstock. Nature abhors a vacuum. I think this is why we end up with so many problems when we, essentially try to have what is termed in agriculture as a mono-culture. Having this concept in mind I have learned, sometimes the hard way, some interesting things. for instance, I had an out break of some bacteria or algae that had a kind of gelatinous look that made my tank poisonous to snails. This occurred after a tank crash, and after I had tried to clean up the massive amounts of hair algae that followed. Any way, I found out after trying to establish an ecosystem again, that the (for most people, dreaded) red planaria, eat it.So as they have multiplied it has steadily declined, and I can keep snails again. I also found that bristle worms will eat hair algae as well as other things. they are ugly but worth having. This hobby seems a lot like other things, as in the more you know , the more you realise what you don't know. Always something to learn.
 

Cherie cook

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In the 2000s a neurobiologist researcher in Ireland was studying gut microbes on the brain and how they and stress affected mental and gut health.

I don't want to bore everyone more with all this research but in short it was found that stress also affects gut microbes and gut microbe health can cause stress in us and I assume in fish.

When the salt water fish hobby started in the US, in 1971 in New York anyway where I live I bought the first salt water fish available which were blue devils.

(I wrote about this many times and it is in my book)

Those 7 blue devils were always sick and I had to keep copper pennies in their tank constantly

(Liquid copper was not available to me at the time)

The copper kept the parasites from killing the fish but the dosing and subsequent overdosing was tricky.

After about a year I discovered live blackworms and started feeding them to my fish. After seven weeks something happened. The fish became much "bluer" and looked so much better. I stopped using the pennies and the fish didn't die.

One of the fish became, or always was male and his clear fins also became royal blue. The 6 female’s fins remained clear but their blue was very blue.

They spawned, and continued spawning for many years. And that was in 1972, when most people didn't even know what salt was unless it was in a small container with holes in it on the table next to the pepper.

Since then I have been feeding live worms a few times a week. I can't get live blackworms now where I live so I raise (very easily) white worms which live in dirt.

It seems that those worms, for some reason, have the same good bacteria that our fish need for immunity because since then, none of my fish have ever been sick with any communicable disease like ich or velvet and in those fifty years I have added many fish.

Virtually all my paired fish spawn and the rest of them only die of old age, jumping out or being bullied.

They always eat, are social, get along (unless I stupidly add something that I should not have) and never give me any problem.

I have no medications, hospital or quarantine tank and after a few minutes of acclimation, put the fish right in no matter if the tank they came from was heavily infected with some sort of parasites.

I also feed shellfish and if I can get it live, I like it better because when we feed shellfish like clams, oysters or mussels we feed the entire creature and those creatures are almost all guts as they don't have arms and legs to waste nutrients on. Those guts seem to also have the living bacteria and parasites that will keep our fish immune.

(Fish, and us need to be occasionally exposed to disease organisms including parasites to stay immune to them)

I am not sure about shellfish sold as “aquarium food” because they could be old, deep frozen or irradiated to kill bacteria. Again, I am guessing here so I like to buy living shellfish and freeze it myself if I can.

But living worms seem to work just as well. White worms can be had by Googling "white worm culture" you get a small supply for about fifteen bucks that you put in a shoe box size plastic container with damp potting soil. Keep them under about 80 degrees and feed dry cat food or bread with yogurt on it. I have a culture going for many years and I get millions of inch long worms.

Fish disease is a non-issue for me and I believe it is due to the microbes in the food I feed and have been feeding since the 70s.

Store bought dry food, no matter what it is; will not have these healthy gut microbes, only living or freshly frozen "whole" creatures will have this.

Fish fillets, shrimp, octopus, scallop will also not as you are only getting the muscle of those animals and not the gut microbes.

This food does not have to be fed at every meal but “I” feel dry foods should never be fed except for short intervals like vacations.

Pro-biotics while great (I take them myself) will also not have the full complement of microbes that are needed for immunity. Only the variety of bacteria that exist in living, or freshly frozen animals will supply this.

So in short, I feel when we buy a fish, if we don’t already have a quarantined tank, acclimate the new fish, put it in your tank and the first meal should be something like live worms or fresh shellfish as I mentioned. Nothing else is needed and dry foods should not be used except for vacation but never at first. Whiteworms live in soil. Don’t be concerned if some of that soil gets in your tank. As a matter of fact, make sure some soil gets into your tank.

Someone posted not long ago that their fish died because it ate a piece of dirt! Really!. Fish eat poop, dirt won’t hurt them and is actually needed

If this is followed and our fish are in a proper, natural tank with natural hiding places (no stark white PVC or anything man made looking) and they are never medicated, they should end up immune from everything except jumping out or maybe your cat.
Hi Paul....I took your advice on live worms and feed my fish white worms regularly. Happy to report my fish shake off all diseases with enthusiasm- they might get a spot or two that looks like ick but it will be gone within 24 hours. Never off their food and happy fish come what may!
 

Paulie069

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Robbyg, I don't think anyone knows what it is but you and me know that when we grew up, there were no computers or cell phones so we spent all our time outside playing in the dirt. We dug worms and went fishing, we climbed trees and we ate as bunch of questionable foods.
In those days milk went bad in a couple of days and before we drank it we smelled it because it was often stale.
Today it lasts 2 months. Why? What did they do to it?
We didn't wash our hands very often because we were outside constantly.

While fishing with filthy worms how many times have we stuck the hook into our finger? We just wiped off the blood on our sleeve and kept fishing.
We also fought and got cut. It's hard to get cut on a computer unless you drop it on your foot.

WE also walked or bicycled many places as most families had only one car and your parent had it.
We got a lot of sunshine. That glow that is emitted from your cell phone will not make any vitamin D.
Never be another tough generation,, your generation was tougher than mine and mine, the proof look at what’s going on nowadays. The news is most depressing show on tv,, it’s y I’d rather be on the aquarium sites with all these Good people,, much better
 
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Avast

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Why Fish In Captivity Get Sick

As some people may know I have been talking about how my fish have never gotten sick in decades and I have been offered many reasons why such as I am Lucky or my tank has some mysterious creature that eats parasites, my Undergravel sucks up parasites and diseases, the Ozone I use kills diseases (I have not used Ozone in almost 3 years) UV light won't allow diseases to flourish (I never used UV light) or a variety of other "explanations".

I am pretty sure I know the reason and I have known it for many years but never actually had proof. Now I do.

My wife has MS and has had it for over 20 years so I research all I can about it. My Grand Son and Granddaughter also have health problems that can be life threatening. Because of this I do a lot of researching of new therapies or any ideas or theories that may be pertinent to this.

Two of my friends are Neurologists and I have spoken to them on this also.

Ever since the 80s I have thought there was some kind of important connection between the organisms living in our, and animals guts and the brain. At first I figured it was slightly but not very important. Now I know differently.

I read all I can find on this relationship and in this months "Discover" magazine (Nov. 2020)

There are two articles on the subject. They mainly focus on mental health and Autism but they outline how gut microbes control our health. Something I have known all along but didn't put it all together so completely.

The article starts out by quoting the Doctor at UCLA in 1990. He started thinking about how tiny organisms, too small to be seen could function as "powerful, "self-contained machines" powerful enough to take over and destroy the Human body.

The gist of one of these articles is about a young boy who had Autism and severe gastrointestinal symptoms.

He then had new microbes introduced into his gut which changed everything. Within a year he was almost back to normal and no longer is considered to have Autism and his internal issues are also resolved.

"Our body, especially our intestines are teeming with thousands of types of bacteria but it was largely unknown how they affected the body besides causing illness.”

Then he thought, "Why would the human immune system which is designed to attack and destroy foreign invaders, allow hundreds of species of bacteria to live and thrive in our guts unmolested?"

The answer is, there must be some sort of benefit to both the microbes and the body.

A "Symbiotic System".

Early research was done on lab mice that were bred to have no bacteria in their bodies. It was found that those mice had a 30 to 40% reduction of a specific type of immune cell known as "helper T cells”.

Helper T cells help stop invading pathogens and it was found that germ free mice were far less robust than mice with a full complement of microbes.

Copper, antibiotics and most aquarium medications either kill or severely alter gut microbes

Those sterile mice were then given fecal transplants from healthy mice and within a month were just as healthy and had a strong immune response as healthy mice.

I realize mice, Humans and fish are different but we all evolved together and our gut microme, just as in a fish act very much the same in relation to health.

One of the biggest things this researcher found was a gut microbe named "B.fragilis" played a key role in preventing the immune system from attacking its host and protecting against autoimmune diseases. (We don't want to kill that one)

(I was very interested in this because my wife's MS is an autoimmune disease)

I don't know if fish get autoimmune diseases but it seems odd to me that many fish in quarantine or medicated for one disease, all of a sudden are afflicted with other, non-related diseases. You know and I know that is very common.

Quarantine by itself I don't feel will cause disease unless the fish is stressed as in a bare tank with PVC "decorations or if the fish is not being fed food with living bacteria (microbes) in it.

Getting back to the research. It was found that children with Autism had "leaky Gut Syndrome" which allowed microbes, one in particular called "4-ethylphenyl sulfate" to circulate in the blood.

Tests were performed on mice and it was found that if they injected 4-ethylphenyl sulfate into healthy mice, they were more easily startled and were less comfortable in large empty spaces than their untreated peers and an increase in anxiety-related behaviors.

Also (in mice anyway who have been given this molecule or have autism like symptoms) several important species involving the digestion of carbohydrates were severely depleted.

That sounds very similar to me to fish that are quarantined, on meds or not eating living bacteria and why many of them refuse to eat, stay hidden, and try to jump out or just die.

We humans are more bacteria than human. 1.3 to 1 to be exact. Our gut houses 100 trillion bacteria (I didn't count them) it is a complicated microbial universe which plays a very important part in our and our fish’s health.

These microbes help us digest food, keep harmful microbes at bay and control our emotions.

(Maybe Vulcans use these)

Continued below
Very interesting article.
I grew up in the 60's early 70's high school grad 75.
Always outdoors doing something and still do.
Another big difference is soap.
I washed my hands with natural glycerin bar soap and still do.
For many year now everyone seems to use soap that kills 99.9% of all bacteria.
It seems to be worse now since everyone uses the same 99.9% bacteria gel due to covid.
 

creativeballance

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Very interesting article.
I grew up in the 60's early 70's high school grad 75.
Always outdoors doing something and still do.
Another big difference is soap.
I washed my hands with natural glycerin bar soap and still do.
For many year now everyone seems to use soap that kills 99.9% of all bacteria.
It seems to be worse now since everyone uses the same 99.9% bacteria gel due to covid.
Not to derail the topic...
But I'm fearful of everyone's "precautions" from covid more than the virus itself.
 
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xxkenny90xx

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Very interesting article.
I grew up in the 60's early 70's high school grad 75.
Always outdoors doing something and still do.
Another big difference is soap.
I washed my hands with natural glycerin bar soap and still do.
For many year now everyone seems to use soap that kills 99.9% of all bacteria.
It seems to be worse now since everyone uses the same 99.9% bacteria gel due to covid.
Great observation! My wife says she learned the same thing in her microbiology class. Antibacterial soup/sanitizer is bad. It kills bacteria (both good and bad bacteria)....
 

robbyg

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Not to derail the topic...
But I'm fearful of everyone's "precautions" from covid more than the virus itself.
If your young and healthy and don’t depend on your parents for survival then I might see why your not worried about the virus. For the rest of us it’s very frightening!

The only downside to all the mask wearing and sanitation health wise is that our immune systems are not being exposed very often to bacteria and other normal viruses. I don’t agree with the CDC that this flu season will be bad, quiet the opposite I suspect all the mask wearing etc is going to make it very mild.
One thing my family has been doing is a lot of gardening and digging into the soil and planting new plants. It gives our immune systems a workout and is also relaxing.
 

ichthyogeek

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The concept of probiotics IN FISH seems interesting and useful. I've got a copy of Paul's book, so I'm down with the usage of probiotics (worms, clams, etc.) to reestablish gut flora/fauna in fish.

On the subject of Autism.
I know to younger folks it will seem crazy but growing up in the 1970's-1980's I had never even heard of Autism! I never met a kid in school that had it and I don't remember the subject ever coming up on the news. Then in the 90s this problem just seemed to be happening to kids everywhere.
I now have two nephews with it and they are the first in several generations of the family to have it.

I did some research on it and found that in the 80's only 1 in 1000 kids had Autism and today it's 16 in 1000. Whats changed? It could be our diets as PaulB suggested or it could be one of the newer vaccines. I know myself and almost every kid had all our Vaccine shots growing up but I have no idea if something has been added or changed in the last 30 years. At one point I thought it had to be related to all the TV and video games kids play but I now feel confident that is not the case. Some people say it's just that we are more aware of the signs of it. Nope my wife has worked in the Medical field since the mid 1980s and she says that what she see's today is nothing like what it was when she started.
Could it be Pollution, processed foods, the list goes on. It's one of those mysteries that I wish they would solve.
There are studies on how raising children in cleaner/more sterile environments MAY (capital letters for emphasis) cause food allergies/sensitivities. It's called the hygiene hypothesis!

Also...I'm fairly certain that you're not being deliberately antivaxx (and any such conversation should be had with me via PM with a moderator present), but I want to point out that the antivax community rallied (and continues to rally) around a now retracted paper linking autism with vaccines.

Oh! Also, autism and asperger's got lumped together into Autism Spectrum Disorder (and man do I hate the "disorder" part). I can't help but wonder though, if the "increase" in people with autism may instead be a combination of better/earlier diagnosing, and a lack/refusal of camouflaging/masking by individuals. There's also just been a huge uptick in social acceptance of neurodivergence and mental health (depression, etc.), so it's not as severely something that's the "family secret" that nobody talks about anymore.

Never be another tough generation,, your generation was tougher than mine and mine is the last of the real bad ***** GenX, nothing but bubble wrapped snowflakes now,, the proof look at what’s going on nowadays. The news is most depressing show on tv,, it’s y I’d rather be on the aquarium sites with all these Good people,, much better
Ok boomer. We're in the process of invading this forum as the old fossils get all cranky and complainy about our ballin' new ways; those that can't adapt and evolve...well, y'all should know what dodos are. 4ll ur tanks r belong 2 us. 1337sp34k. Y33T!!!!
 
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Paul B

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I have always thought that antibacterial soap was bad and it is hard to get soap that is not antibacterial, but we find it.
When I was a kid in school we all brought in peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch. No one was allergic to peanuts or just about anything else.

Now kids never go outside, dig worms, go fishing or play in "sand boxes" which are now banned because they had germs in them.
Playgrounds now are boring places covered in foam and nothing that will give you exercise or give you a cut. No monkey bars or see saws.

Now also many kids are allergic and peanuts are banned from schools, airlines and Halloween.
Forget shellfish, those will kill people. :confused:

My Grand Kids are growing up in Manhattan and they are severely allergic to almost everything. If "Greta" sees a picture of a peanut, we have to give her a shot with an epi pen and rush her to a hospital.

WE used to make a rope swing out of a filthy rope we found and swing over a ravine. Out hands were always cut, we broke bones, got stitches, landed in the mud and didn't have water to wash our hands but I never had to stay home sick from school unless I just broke something and needed a few hours in a hospital, then I went to school.
We drank water out of a stream or "OMG" a hose.

I worked as a construction election in Manhattan for 40 years and don't ever remember taking a day off for sickness. Yes, I did have a lot of hospital visits but those were from "Manly" injuries that I got either working, skiing, playing, or some other normal activity.

I didn't get colds, "sniffles" fevers or anything else bad enough to keep me home.
WE didn't have sick or "personal" days.

I get a flu shot and have nothing against vaccines. We need them now because people come from all over the world, especially if like me you live in New York. WE may not be immune from foreign diseases as Covid taught us.

Remember people, and fish were designed to eat what we find and run around naked. (Or covered in scales)
We people were always in the sun and all parts of us were exposed to sunlight just as our fish were in the sea.

This is me in Viet Nam. I rarely wore a shirt. Not because I had a six pack, ;Meh The only girl there was Judy that monkey, and I spent the entire year in a jungle, never coming out and I never saw a roof or wall. (also no electricity or plumbing)
I was constantly in the sun and it was almost 100 degrees most of the times. It rained almost constantly hot rain.
There was no sunscreen. I don't think it was even invented.

I didn't get sun burn and I got cut many times, almost every day. I also got quite a bit of shrapnel in me that either I or the medic picked out. I never got an infection, never got sick, I don't think I, ever sneezed.
We drank water from a river, lake or rice paddy. We had iodine tablets to put in it which made it taste like ......Iodine. Not exactly a Pina Colada. We never got sick.
We ate C Rations that were put in a can before we were born. WE ate them in filthy conditions where helicopters would blow dirt all over us. WE had no water for showers and remained dirty.


We washed our clothes while wearing them in the rain. We slept on the ground.
We took anti malaria pills because we had no immunity to it. The people we were fighting had no pills and they looked mighty healthy to me. They were exposed to it all their lives.



Everything we got, food, ammo, water, people came on one of these as there were no roads.
Most things came on a filthy "canvas" tarp that was hung under the thing.
Sometimes we got hot ice cream. It came in a wooden box with the mortor shells. Of course it was melted all over the bottom of the tarp.

After we removed the ammo, C Rations, mail etc. We sometimes discovered, to our joy ice cream.
It was a filthy, bug and red dirt infested puddle on the bottom of the tarp.

As the helocopter was hovering 50' above we would use our helmets to scoop out some of the hot liquid.

We brushed aside the bugs and dirt and dank it. And as it was a treat, we loved it.
Dirty ice cream was better than dirty iodine infused water.
I also crashed in this and another smaller one. But like my fish, never got sick.

 
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