2 Hour DOA... What is wrong with this forum

[Sarcazian]

duplicate. Not sure how to delete.

 

[Sarcazian]

It sounds like these discussions are around private sellers mostly and I have no experience on that front. Before my hiatus I always went to frag swaps and local reef clubs to pick up frags. I have had great experiences from vendors though..

I added a bunch of stuff to my tank over the past 2 weeks. I need to pump the brakes and I am done for a long time now.

But, in both cases, it took me almost 2 hours to actually get the fish/corals/inverts into my tank. I am picky in my process between dips, rinses, observation, etc. These were purchased as post-quarantined, so I suspect I am less picky than those using a full QT - the corals sat in a QT for like 5 days though. I take photos and videos as well and either I have purchased from good vendors (TSM for example) or been lucky.

I have been lucky to not have fedex/ups delays as well and I made sure that I was available to focus on those pets as soon as they got there. More so to reduce the stress on the animals in general than the 2 hour period.

I even dipped the duncan in a solution of 35% H2O2 since it came with a frag full of green algae and I could not find my snips. Then it went into Seachem reef dip for 45 minutes (1.5 caps @ 1gal), and into the tank. It was opening up in the DT after an hour and I did make sure it was opening before dipping it. 35% may have been too strong, but heck I use it on myself at full strength if I get cut bad and have been fine.

 

[ClownWrangler]

There seems to be alot of completely invalid arguments here that assume that people who have a problem with a 2 hour DOA policy want extended guaranties. That’s not the argument being made so please stop exaggerating. A 4 to 6 hour time frame would be perfectly reasonable.

 

[Bepis]

There seems to be alot of completely invalid arguments here that assume that people who have a problem with a 2 hour DOA policy want extended guaranties. That’s not the argument being made so please stop exaggerating. A 4 to 6 hour time frame would be perfectly reasonable

Yes I agree I just want a little extra time.

 

[ClownWrangler]

I regards to my last comment, I'm specifically referring to corals and anemones because they are more difficult or even impossible to assess within a 2 hour window. Fish are a separate argument. Fish die quickly and corals and nems die slowly, which is why it’s not logical to apply the same policies.

 

[reeferKen]

" ill probably only stick to @WWC from now on because they have an awesome doa policy "

how much proof and hoops do you have to go through for them to pay a claim? Thanks in advance.

 

[sde1500]

We definitely live in a different age. There used to be a time when scammers and con artists were looked at as crooked, nowadays its treated as a profession and its the buyers fault for being scammed. I hate millennial thinking.

It almost seems like you’re flat out calling anyone with this policy a scammer and insulting most millennials. Which would be absurd so I’m sure that’s not the case right?

 

[Augus7us]

It almost seems like you’re flat out calling anyone with this policy a scammer and insulting most millennials. Which would be absurd so I’m sure that’s not the case right?

Agree, I'm older than a millennial but I'm tired of hearing people whine about them like babies. Kind of ironic actually...

I think some of you are not understanding the policy. Dead on arrival. I know your saying it takes me longer to look at it and all that, however the coral sellers here have collectively, if unofficially, agreed that serves them best. In other words you open the box and look in the bag and if you're satisfied the coral didn't nuke itself in shipping and you're willing to put it in the tank, that is the end of the responsibility of the seller. You can inspect many coral's this way in two hours. Its not about putting it in your tank and seeing if it opens up.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with this policy. Here is why: I do not want you putting the coral in your tank. You have to be realistic. Look at how many new members are on this site, how many are logged in at once. Read some of the cycling tank threads. There is so much garbage information tossed around. Why would I want you to put your coral, stressed from shipping, in your one week old tank that you super cycled with a beer can and a gallon of Dr. Tim's, then blame me because it died two days later.

I cannot argue against the buyer. If his tank is a week old and he tells me it cycled a year ago; any disagreement on my part is calling him a liar and he may post it all over the internet. Now my reputation is in question. I'm getting back into the hobby and debating selling corals online. I honestly would rather not go through all the headache of taking pictures, replying to messages, packaging, driving to the shipping store, etc. and then deal with the new guy that swears its not his fault the coral died. I know this doesn't apply to a lot of you and you don't worry about them, but as a seller, I have to.

Keep in mind that sellers do not want to have to deal with scammers and people that don't know how to grow corals. The guy above shut his business down because of scammers. But it is an unfortunate reality of any hobby. This, and the speed at which I see nice corals that are priced fairly sell, most don't seem to mind this policy.

Finally, a good seller will take care of a good customer, regardless of the doa policy.

My .02

 

[Ryan Doolittle]

It costs $0.25 to replace a frag, a 2hr DOA policy is a slap in a buyers face.

24 hours is more acceptable, it atleast gives the coral a chance to show if it arrived good or not. Any healthy coral thats properly packed and properly shipped will live the 24hrs.

What I am seeing these days is basically a chop shop. Corals cut today, shipped tomorrow and if the coral dies its the buyers fault. I remember a time SPS wouldn't be shipped until it encrusted over the glue and onto the plug, Zoas were cut off rocks not peeled, cut and glued, ontop of that they weren't sold until new growth was shown.

Now you see the exact opposite and its pretty disgusting. Ontop of that people are falsely advertising corals with Blue LED and filters. Buyers should do their research and ask themselves why a seller is more money than another. Frankly I will pay more for large frags, that are properly healed before shipping, a good DOA policy and the seller is credible.

For myself, my policy is shipping is not covered, thats on the buyer. Coral is guaranteed for 7 days with a single 1 time replacement. You can take it now or when you figured out what went wrong and corrected it. My thought is $0.25 in glue and a frag plug is worth less that a replacement and customer for life.

 

[Saltyreef]

It costs $0.25 to replace a frag, a 2hr DOA policy is a slap in a buyers face.

24 hours is more acceptable, it atleast gives the coral a chance to show if it arrived good or not. Any healthy coral thats properly packed and properly shipped will live the 24hrs.

What I am seeing these days is basically a chop shop. Corals cut today, shipped tomorrow and if the coral dies its the buyers fault. I remember a time SPS wouldn't be shipped until it encrusted over the glue and onto the plug, Zoas were cut off rocks not peeled, cut and glued, ontop of that they weren't sold until new growth was shown.

Now you see the exact opposite and its pretty disgusting. Ontop of that people are falsely advertising corals with Blue LED and filters. Buyers should do their research and ask themselves why a seller is more money than another. Frankly I will pay more for large frags, that are properly healed before shipping, a good DOA policy and the seller is credible.

For myself, my policy is shipping is not covered, thats on the buyer. Coral is guaranteed for 7 days with a single 1 time replacement. You can take it now or when you figured out what went wrong and corrected it. My thought is $0.25 in glue and a frag plug is worth less that a replacement and customer for life.

I agree with most of what you said.
But, i am failing to understand how replacing a coral.....say valued @ $250....and re-shipping a box that cost $60-100 in postage let alone the price of the foam core box itself($10 easy) equates to $0.25.....

Now if the buyer wants to cover postage again, the value of the coral im sure can be disputed

I like your DOA though....

 

[Ryan Doolittle]

I agree with most of what you said.
But, i am failing to understand how replacing a coral.....say valued @ $250....and re-shipping a box that cost $60-100 in postage let alone the price of the foam core box itself($10 easy) equates to $0.25.....

Now if the buyer wants to cover postage again, the value of the coral im sure can be disputed

I like your DOA though....

So let's add the $5 in 2 part then to grow the coral. Shipping is on the buyer like I said above. But we aren't talking market value. We are talking what it costed you to grow the 1" of coral frag for the replacement. Now there are some variants such as euphyllia that take longer to grow.

But don't tell me the frag costed you $250 to grow.

 

[Saltyreef]

So let's add the $5 in 2 part then to grow the coral. Shipping is on the buyer like I said above. But we aren't talking market value. We are talking what it costed you to grow the 1" of coral frag for the replacement. Now there are some variants such as euphyllia that take longer to grow.

But don't tell me the frag costed you $250 to grow.

The market isnt based on how much it cost me to grow what i sell....
Its based on supply and demand.
If it wasnt, there would be NO market.

 

[JCM]

Hello,

I’ve read through a majority of the responses here and just wanted to add a sellers point of view.

We have the standard 2 hour DOA, however if something arrives questionable, we extend. Anything beyond that does put the seller at risk because so much can occur outside of the sellers control.

Now if we get a message 6 hours later and the coral is not showing signs of opening up, we will do what’s right for the customer and extend the coverage. The key is contact and communication.

I think the bigger issue is sellers who don’t cover their pieces if there is a delay by UPS or FedEx which happens now more than ever with the volume of shipping being done in this Covid environment. Most sellers will not cover and state on their website or DOA policy that they won’t.

I see lots of people on here who say they don’t want to risk buying online,
however if you find the right vendor who has experience packing and shipping and holds corals before selling to ensure a 100% healthy coral, you will find there is no risk.

That is an absolutely genius way of shipping corals.

 

[Ryan Doolittle]

The market isnt based on how much it cost me to grow what i sell....
Its based on supply and demand.
If it wasnt, there would be NO market.

To replace a coral we aren't talking about the market value. But even IF we were. A $250 frag is less money to keep a customer happy than it is to pass the blame. PLUS they are probably going to order more off me for 2 reasons
#1 they are paying shipping and they will want to make the shipping worth while.
#2 and the most important one. They feel comfortable spending more money with me because they know if anything goes wrong I am going to take care of it. How do they know? Because there is a replacement in the box.

If you don't want to conduct business this way, that's on you. But being in the sales and customer service industry, I know how expensive bad publicity is and how much cheaper it can be to just make it right.

 

[Saltyreef]

To replace a coral we aren't talking about the market value. But even IF we were. A $250 frag is less money to keep a customer happy than it is to pass the blame. PLUS they are probably going to order more off me for 2 reasons
#1 they are paying shipping and they will want to make the shipping worth while.
#2 and the most important one. They feel comfortable spending more money with me because they know if anything goes wrong I am going to take care of it. How do they know? Because there is a replacement in the box.

If you don't want to conduct business this way, that's on you. But being in the sales and customer service industry, I know how expensive bad publicity is and how much cheaper it can be to just make it right.

My point being is i cant see how replacing a coral shipment equates to 0.25 cents lol.
I paid more for the glue and the plugs haha.

Some people also pay premiums and sell at a very narrow profit margin.
Ive even sold at a loss before.
Remember when GMKs were $1200/pp?

 

[JCM]

I've never had a problem with it personally. Either way I always send a picture immediately and say "thanks, everything looks great" or "hey, this coral isn't looking so hot". For the latter, I think every seller has said "keep me posted, if it doesn't make it I'll refund". In that case, I'll wait until the next day and decide if it'll make it or not. If that wasn't the response from the seller, I wouldn't do business with them anymore but I can't recall that ever happening.

I dont buy $1500 corals, but if I did I'd approach it the same.

 

[Saltyreef]

DOAs are in place to help protect the seller.
Not the seller ripping off the buyer.
And even then, theres plenty of loopholes for the buyer to come out on top with their money and a healthy coral.

If the seller doesnt work with you even when their DOA says 2 hours or cant cover carrier delays, then i agree thats a bad seller.

I always refund less shipping and packaging or replace but i need good proof you arent trying to rip ME off

 

[Biokabe]

To replace a coral we aren't talking about the market value. But even IF we were. A $250 frag is less money to keep a customer happy than it is to pass the blame. PLUS they are probably going to order more off me for 2 reasons
#1 they are paying shipping and they will want to make the shipping worth while.
#2 and the most important one. They feel comfortable spending more money with me because they know if anything goes wrong I am going to take care of it. How do they know? Because there is a replacement in the box.

If you don't want to conduct business this way, that's on you. But being in the sales and customer service industry, I know how expensive bad publicity is and how much cheaper it can be to just make it right.

You seem to not understand how business works.

In talking about replacements, we are ABSOLUTELY talking about market value. If the business did not have to send that frag, they could have sold it to someone else. That is lost stock and lost sales. Additionally, corals are not an 'instant replacement' item. To grow a coral I need to maintain a tank, pay myself or someone else to look after it, trim it back, place it on a frag plug, and let it heal. In all cases that equates to time and money to produce a frag. Not to mention, if it's a high-dollar coral, it may have cost a not-insignificant amount to purchase to begin with. These are all expenses that must be accounted for, and all of them will total to WELL above $0.25/coral.

Having said that - the choice to offer a replacement or not is a difficult one, and any vendor has to balance the value of an extended DOA policy vs. the expense of sending replacements. You also have to factor in the % of consumers who will 'doctor' a loss in order to extract free merchandise. It's not always a straightforward question, and a business very well may decide that they would rather lose customers who won't buy from them without a more generous policy. That's their right, just as it's your right to not buy from them.

For myself? Well, I'm not in the business of buying and selling corals, but I am in the business of selling other products. With the products I sell, I absolutely agree with you that I would rather send the customer replacements for damaged merchandise. Most of the time I don't even ask for photographic evidence, but I have the advantage of largely working with the same people (I sell B2B), so I can take them on trust. The value of keeping that customer happy is worth far more to me than the cost of sending those replacement products.

But - that's a calculus that was arrived at within the constraints of selling dishtowels, soaps, scarves, cooking gadgets and other housewares. The cost and profit functions are far different with our products than they would be with corals, and I don't have to worry about a dishtowel dying in transit, nor do I need to ship a bar of soap submerged in water via next-day air to ensure it arrives in good condition. My company might arrive at a different conclusion as to when a more generous policy is worth it compared to a coral vendor.

 

[JCM]

DOAs are in place to help protect the seller.
Not the seller ripping off the buyer.
And even then, theres plenty of loopholes for the buyer to come out on top with their money and a healthy coral.

If the seller doesnt work with you even when their DOA says 2 hours or cant cover carrier delays, then i agree thats a bad seller.

I always refund less shipping and packaging or replace but i need good proof you arent trying to rip ME off

This sounds reasonable to me.

Personally I've always considered DOA to mean "this coral showed up looking really bad" rather than "this coral was literally dead within 2 hours". Maybe others view it differently? I've never run into issues with my interpretation though.

 

[Ryan Doolittle]

You seem to not understand how business works.

In talking about replacements, we are ABSOLUTELY talking about market value. If the business did not have to send that frag, they could have sold it to someone else. That is lost stock and lost sales. Additionally, corals are not an 'instant replacement' item. To grow a coral I need to maintain a tank, pay myself or someone else to look after it, trim it back, place it on a frag plug, and let it heal. In all cases that equates to time and money to produce a frag. Not to mention, if it's a high-dollar coral, it may have cost a not-insignificant amount to purchase to begin with. These are all expenses that must be accounted for, and all of them will total to WELL above $0.25/coral.

Having said that - the choice to offer a replacement or not is a difficult one, and any vendor has to balance the value of an extended DOA policy vs. the expense of sending replacements. You also have to factor in the % of consumers who will 'doctor' a loss in order to extract free merchandise. It's not always a straightforward question, and a business very well may decide that they would rather lose customers who won't buy from them without a more generous policy. That's their right, just as it's your right to not buy from them.

For myself? Well, I'm not in the business of buying and selling corals, but I am in the business of selling other products. With the products I sell, I absolutely agree with you that I would rather send the customer replacements for damaged merchandise. Most of the time I don't even ask for photographic evidence, but I have the advantage of largely working with the same people (I sell B2B), so I can take them on trust. The value of keeping that customer happy is worth far more to me than the cost of sending those replacement products.

But - that's a calculus that was arrived at within the constraints of selling dishtowels, soaps, scarves, cooking gadgets and other housewares. The cost and profit functions are far different with our products than they would be with corals, and I don't have to worry about a dishtowel dying in transit, nor do I need to ship a bar of soap submerged in water via next-day air to ensure it arrives in good condition. My company might arrive at a different conclusion as to when a more generous policy is worth it compared to a coral vendor.

The way corals are grown and sold your right it isn't instant. Most people are fragging frags to make smaller frags. What most consider colonies we used to call chunky frags.

You can look at it how you want. If I haven't sold the coral then I am not out the purchase price. The only thing I am out if the plug and super glue which equates to about a quarter of a dollar. The frag isn't able to be sold if I have another customer who ended up with a dead one. So I'm out a quarter and 2 min it took to cut the frag. So yes it sure does such shipping out a replacement frag, however I look at it from the otherwise, if I were the customer I would want it replaced.

Current customer first, then I will focus on new ones. However if you take care of the 1st you will never have to worry about finding the 2nd. They will find you.