Alkalinity & Calcium dosing and consumption

[Gungo]

Do you have a Full tank shot, so we can see your livestock?

Here is a video of my humble tank:

 

[Gungo]

Quick news on trying to dose equal parts of BRS two part. It doesn't work for me... I was dosing 18ml KH and 9ml CA as I said.. But I tried to dose equal amounts, I mean, 18ml of KH and CA but something went wrong and I couldn't get my dKH back to 8... I did daily tests and dKH always was at 7 and I found it weird. I increased the amount of equal dosage trying to find the point to get dKH to 8 and I found it was 90ml of TWO PART... I don't think I have the number of corals to consume 90ml of KH daily... so finally my KH raised to 8 but my calcium went to 500+ so actually I am just dosing 90ml KH and it stays at 8 but I am waiting for my calcium to come back to 450-420 to go back to the way I dosed before.. Using equal amount might be the right way but I just don't understand how to find the point or the balance...

 

[Coastie Reefer]

Quick news on trying to dose equal parts of BRS two part. It doesn't work for me... I was dosing 18ml KH and 9ml CA as I said.. But I tried to dose equal amounts, I mean, 18ml of KH and CA but something went wrong and I couldn't get my dKH back to 8... I did daily tests and dKH always was at 7 and I found it weird. I increased the amount of equal dosage trying to find the point to get dKH to 8 and I found it was 90ml of TWO PART... I don't think I have the number of corals to consume 90ml of KH daily... so finally my KH raised to 8 but my calcium went to 500+ so actually I am just dosing 90ml KH and it stays at 8 but I am waiting for my calcium to come back to 450-420 to go back to the way I dosed before.. Using equal amount might be the right way but I just don't understand how to find the point or the balance...

What is the timing of your dosing? Are you dosing at relatively close time intervals? Sounds like your alk is precipitating out...

 

[Gungo]

What is the timing of your dosing? Are you dosing at relatively close time intervals? Sounds like your alk is precipitating out...

well.. at 90ml I'm dosing 9 times a day.. 12 am, 3 am, 6 am, 9 am, 12 pm, 3 pm and 6 pm for dKH. Did the same for CA but 30 mins later for example 12:30 am, 3:30 am. 6:30 am ETC.

 

[Brien]

90 ml seems like a lot for a lightly stocked 67-gal. system.

I've found myself in the past chasing "ideal" numbers of soda ash and calcium. Before you know it your dosing 300ml per day.

Here's what I've learned and it has worked well for me. First, don't worry about calcium, focus on your KH for now.

Do a big water change at least a third and set your dosers to say 20ml of both soda ash and calcium. Test your water the next day to establish a baseline. Then do nothing for a week. After 7-days test again and now you will be able to calculate your consumption rate of each. Again, don't worry about calcium, if your numbers say you need to increase your soda ash to say 25ml a day then adjust both soda ash and calcium to that number.

Wait another week, do your tests again and see where your at. What I have found is calcium will naturally fall in line (more or less) with your soda ash dosing. I also don't force certain numbers, i.e. 9 dkh and 450 Ca because that's what everyone says is ideal. I let my salt set the natural range of my parameters. If you don't like a 7 dkh then try and different salt with a higher KH.

Also, numbers don't have to be equal, but should be close. As an example my daily dosing of soda ash is 65 ml with 60 ml of Ca in an 85-gal system.

 

[Gungo]

90 ml seems like a lot for a lightly stocked 67-gal. system.

I've found myself in the past chasing "ideal" numbers of soda ash and calcium. Before you know it your dosing 300ml per day.

Here's what I've learned and it has worked well for me. First, don't worry about calcium, focus on your KH for now.

Do a big water change at least a third and set your dosers to say 20ml of both soda ash and calcium. Test your water the next day to establish a baseline. Then do nothing for a week. After 7-days test again and now you will be able to calculate your consumption rate of each. Again, don't worry about calcium, if your numbers say you need to increase your soda ash to say 25ml a day then adjust both soda ash and calcium to that number.

Wait another week, do your tests again and see where your at. What I have found is calcium will naturally fall in line (more or less) with your soda ash dosing. I also don't force certain numbers, i.e. 9 dkh and 450 Ca because that's what everyone says is ideal. I let my salt set the natural range of my parameters. If you don't like a 7 dkh then try and different salt with a higher KH.

Also, numbers don't have to be equal, but should be close. As an example my daily dosing of soda ash is 65 ml with 60 ml of Ca in an 85-gal system.

Thank you for that info, that's what exactly I am going to do.. Big water change and see how it goes.. Btw I forgot to mention I am actually on 115 gal total volume now, I updated my tank.. But water volume are not supposed to increase or decrease elements consumption... I haven't add any coral atm.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Quick news on trying to dose equal parts of BRS two part. It doesn't work for me... I was dosing 18ml KH and 9ml CA as I said.. But I tried to dose equal amounts, I mean, 18ml of KH and CA but something went wrong and I couldn't get my dKH back to 8... I did daily tests and dKH always was at 7 and I found it weird. I increased the amount of equal dosage trying to find the point to get dKH to 8 and I found it was 90ml of TWO PART... I don't think I have the number of corals to consume 90ml of KH daily... so finally my KH raised to 8 but my calcium went to 500+ so actually I am just dosing 90ml KH and it stays at 8 but I am waiting for my calcium to come back to 450-420 to go back to the way I dosed before.. Using equal amount might be the right way but I just don't understand how to find the point or the balance...

FWIW, I think there is more to this story. It is just not true that tanks can frequently have dosing needs as skewed as you suggest.

Many people who make such uneven dosing claims actually find they didn't follow the directions exactly (including using unbalanced ingredients such as sodium bicarbonate when the recipe called for sodium carbonate), that they used dosing pumps that were not delivering as expected, or who had issues caused by a salt mix that didn't match the tank.

The first thing I'd do it get an actual calcium reading by using a second syringe of titrant to get to the endpoint. Then add the values together. That was you can know where you stand and better able to determine if a water change is even worthwhile (it isn't, at 500 ppm, IMO).

 

[Gungo]

I've attached the graphs and the value of dKH and CA with the dates that I've done the tests from jan 1 2018 to date.

Alkalinity:

Calcium:

Values:

As you can see in the pictures.. my dKH is 7.7 steady but my calcium isn't. This was the second time I tried to dose equal parts. A friend of mine told me to let the calcium drop from 460 in december ( were it was ) to 410 on 1/8/2018 and then raise it up to 450 to start dosing equal amounts. Started dosing equal amounts and thats when my calcium went to 500+. After 1/11/2018 I stopped dosing CA (Again) and I am waiting to come back again to 450 to start dosing and try to find the point. Today I tried to raise my Dkh to 8 but it went to 8.2.

Note: 7 10ml KH translated to my dosing pump is 90ml

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What exactly are you dosing? Have you checked the pump volumes actually dosed?

 

[Gungo]

What exactly are you dosing? Have you checked the pump volumes actually dosed?

BRS Sodium bicarbonate, and BRS Calcium Chloride. Yep values are checked, anyway, its a jebao pump that puts me in doubt.. started today dosing manually again to check that also.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I suspect you followed the recipe for sodium carbonate and used sodium bicarbonate, hence were greatly overdosing the calcium part since it would be balanced for the carbonate recipe only.

What exact recipe did you use to make the solutions?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The proper recipe is about 1 1/4 cups calcium chloride dihydrate per gallon and 1 1/8 cups sodium bicarbonate per gallon. [emoji3]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hers the recipe article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

[Gungo]

This is what I used for Calcium:
MIXING DIRECTIONS

Add 2½ dry measuring cups of calcium chloride to a gallon jug and mix with RO/DI or distilled water to create a full gallon of solution.

And this for dKH:


MIXING DIRECTIONS

• Fill gallon jug 4/5 full with RO/DI or distilled water and pour into empty bucket/bowl.
• While stirring water, add 1 level dry measuring cup and 4 tbsp of Sodium Bicarbonate.
• Once dissolved, use funnel to transfer solution to gallon jug. Fill remainder of jug with water.
• Label Sodium Bicarbonate - Alkalinity and let sit before use.

 

[Gungo]

The proper recipe is about 1 1/4 cups calcium chloride dihydrate per gallon and 1 1/8 cups sodium bicarbonate per gallon. [emoji3]

Im just using what BRS recommends.

 

[Gungo]

Hers the recipe article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Just read the article. Thank you very much, it helped me understanding everything. My calcium gallon has 2 1/2 cups when the receipt says 1 1/4 as you said... Not sure if that applies to BRS too.. please confirm and Ill correct that on my tank!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just read the article. Thank you very much, it helped me understanding everything. My calcium gallon has 2 1/2 cups when the receipt says 1 1/4 as you said... Not sure if that applies to BRS too.. please confirm and Ill correct that on my tank!

BRS is using my recipe (they talked to me about it in advance of selling the ingredients), and for years they only sold sodium carbonate, not sodium bicarbonate. Now that they sell ingredients for both recipes, they need to more clearly spell out how to make the calcium half when using sodium bicarbonate. I'll drop them a line about it.

 

[Gungo]

Fine, they need to give the right instructions because now I'm wondering how many people around the world are dealing with the same issue. I'll go make 1 1/4 of BRS Calcium Chloride and start dosing equal amounts.. I'll post any updates! Thank you Randy!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fine, they need to give the right instructions because now I'm wondering how many people around the world are dealing with the same issue. I'll go make 1 1/4 of BRS Calcium Chloride and start dosing equal amounts.. I'll post any updates! Thank you Randy!

I told than as much.

 

[Gungo]

Quick update.. 10 days later using this new receipt everything got back on track.. My tank is finally balanced and the parameters are were I want them to be.

The thing is, most of us don't know how to test with Red Sea, we usually get the value at the first color change.. but that color usually changes back within 5 secs. To have an accurate result we need to get the color change and make sure it holds its color.

One of my friends made me doubt on how I tested before with Red Sea and how I played with the color changes to get an accurate result. I just went through the manual and found this. Magnesium test result value will be on the first color change.. Its normal to go back to violet.