Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Radman73]

Maybe, possibly, I'm winning the battle.

I started with ostreopsis, bought a UV sterilizer and all that seemed to do was allow amphidinium to take over. The dino's kept getting worse while all I was doing was raising nutrients. After doing more reading, I decided to start dosing H2O2 twice per day, 1ml/gallon. That seemed to stop the growth but really it was just causing it to recede a little and then recover. Finally, I started dosing Microbacter7 at 2ml/gallon once per day. I saw maybe marginal improvement over a week. I also started dosing silicate(sponge power) at 1 drop/gallon once per day. I started blasting my sand to stir up the dino's but that seemed to just make them come back stronger so I stopped. Went away for a weekend, so no dosing, and came back to more dino's then I'd seen in a while. Went back to dosing the H2O2 and MB7 and a week later, the dino's are almost all gone.

One thing I do is run my skimmer after blasting the rocks with a turkey baster. No idea if this really helps but I just cleaned out the darkest, nastiest, batch of skimmer scum that I've ever seen. I consider it likely that many dino's were getting pulled out by the skimmer.

I really saw improvement after dosing the MB7, but find it odd that it really seemed to help after a break in the dosing. Perhaps at that point the bacteria were just starting to get established.

I've been dosing silicate for about 1.5 weeks now with no sign of diatoms, but dino's have definitely receded. I haven't bought a silicate test kit, yet, so no idea what my levels actually are and if it's having any affect.

I have still be running 2 jebao 50w UV's throughout.

Battle is still not over, as I do see small patches form during the lighting period, but the tank hasn't looked this good in a long time, and the growth on the rocks, which I used to have to blow off daily, is now not even noticeable from day to day.

Hopefully in a few more weeks there won't be any signs. I will be dropping the dose of MB7 per the bottle directions and in a week I'll drop down the silicate dosing as well. H2O2 I'll keep dosing until after the dino's are gone and I then run out. Many different changes so it's hard to say if it was one thing in particular that's helped or a combination of all.

 

[linkedsilas]

Maybe, possibly, I'm winning the battle.

I started with ostreopsis, bought a UV sterilizer and all that seemed to do was allow amphidinium to take over. The dino's kept getting worse while all I was doing was raising nutrients. After doing more reading, I decided to start dosing H2O2 twice per day, 1ml/gallon. That seemed to stop the growth but really it was just causing it to recede a little and then recover. Finally, I started dosing Microbacter7 at 2ml/gallon once per day. I saw maybe marginal improvement over a week. I also started dosing silicate(sponge power) at 1 drop/gallon once per day. I started blasting my sand to stir up the dino's but that seemed to just make them come back stronger so I stopped. Went away for a weekend, so no dosing, and came back to more dino's then I'd seen in a while. Went back to dosing the H2O2 and MB7 and a week later, the dino's are almost all gone.

One thing I do is run my skimmer after blasting the rocks with a turkey baster. No idea if this really helps but I just cleaned out the darkest, nastiest, batch of skimmer scum that I've ever seen. I consider it likely that many dino's were getting pulled out by the skimmer.

I really saw improvement after dosing the MB7, but find it odd that it really seemed to help after a break in the dosing. Perhaps at that point the bacteria were just starting to get established.

I've been dosing silicate for about 1.5 weeks now with no sign of diatoms, but dino's have definitely receded. I haven't bought a silicate test kit, yet, so no idea what my levels actually are and if it's having any affect.

I have still be running 2 jebao 50w UV's throughout.

Battle is still not over, as I do see small patches form during the lighting period, but the tank hasn't looked this good in a long time, and the growth on the rocks, which I used to have to blow off daily, is now not even noticeable from day to day.

Hopefully in a few more weeks there won't be any signs. I will be dropping the dose of MB7 per the bottle directions and in a week I'll drop down the silicate dosing as well. H2O2 I'll keep dosing until after the dino's are gone and I then run out. Many different changes so it's hard to say if it was one thing in particular that's helped or a combination of all.

You dose silicate and peroxide at the same time? Meaning am I not screwing with too many things at once if I try peroxide?

 

[taricha]

I also started dosing silicate(sponge power) at 1 drop/gallon once per day.

Sponge power? Or spongexcel?
Sponge power has no detectable Si in it.

 

[Radman73]

Sponge power? Or spongexcel?
Sponge power has no detectable Si in it.

Sorry, sponge excel. What I get for running off memory.

 

[Radman73]

You dose silicate and peroxide at the same time? Meaning am I not screwing with too many things at once if I try peroxide?

Yes, I dose both. I'm not informed enough to say whether it's a good idea or not. I've been reading as much as I can on methods used and both peroxide and silicates have been mentioned as possible solutions.

 

[taricha]

Yes, I dose both. I'm not informed enough to say whether it's a good idea or not. I've been reading as much as I can on methods used and both peroxide and silicates have been mentioned as possible solutions.

Much peroxide work has been tried over the years with dinos.

I have both personally tested h2o2 in beaker tests and nano tanks with dinos and seen other people use it in tanks vs dinos.
In both cases, though some improvement was had, eradication required ramping up doses past levels that stressed and killed other livestock.

Having said that, maybe h2o2 + Si is not insane. Although some dinos can be pretty tough holdouts vs h2o2, as a family diatoms are even tougher oxidation targets.
It doesn't seem likely, but it is plausible that at some level of Si and peroxide diatoms can grow while dinos are somewhat suppressed.
Document your experiments. It may prove interesting.

 

[aras]

Hi all, so it seems that I have amphidinium as well. If anyone can confirm from images/video below that would be great.

I managed to eradicate all visible dino about a month ago after 21 days of DinoX treatment. Unfortunately, dino came back in full strength a few weeks later. It looks slightly different to a naked eye, so not entirely sure it's the same strand as before (didn't have microscope until recently). Mostly stays on sand but there are some on rocks.

Thinking on the next course of action. DinoX killed my 5 year old urchin, wiped 90% of Xenia, and badly stressed some other corals (slowly recovering now) so will not do any chemicals, blackouts, or anything else that could harm corals for now.

From what I read it seems that amphidinium stay in the sand and don't enter the water column making UV useless. However, in my case, sand and rocks definitely look much cleaner after lights go out. Is this what other people see with amphidinium as well, or my strain or somehow different?

 

[Radman73]

Much peroxide work has been tried over the years with dinos.

I have both personally tested h2o2 in beaker tests and nano tanks with dinos and seen other people use it in tanks vs dinos.
In both cases, though some improvement was had, eradication required ramping up doses past levels that stressed and killed other livestock.

Having said that, maybe h2o2 + Si is not insane. Although some dinos can be pretty tough holdouts vs h2o2, as a family diatoms are even tougher oxidation targets.
It doesn't seem likely, but it is plausible that at some level of Si and peroxide diatoms can grow while dinos are somewhat suppressed.
Document your experiments. It may prove interesting.

I just got back from a work trip and had my wife dose while I was gone. Still waiting for the lights to come on but using a flashlight all I see are a few tufts hanging on to the rocks. Sand appears completely clean. Will be very interesting to see how it looks at 4pm.

Starting today I'm dropping silicate dosing to 15 drops and will cut back peroxide to 30ml once per day and observe if there are any changes. If things continue to improve or look clear, I may even add in some corals again!

 

[taricha]

From what I read it seems that amphidinium stay in the sand and don't enter the water column making UV useless. However, in my case, sand and rocks definitely look much cleaner after lights go out. Is this what other people see with amphidinium as well, or my strain or somehow different?

Totally right - that is large cell amphidinium. Common misconception is that since the sand looks clearer overnight, they go into the water. They do not, instead they go down into the substrate, from what I can tell - more like the underside of sand grains rather than burrowing down some inches.

I just got back from a work trip and had my wife dose while I was gone. Still waiting for the lights to come on but using a flashlight all I see are a few tufts hanging on to the rocks. Sand appears completely clean. Will be very interesting to see how it looks at 4pm.

Starting today I'm dropping silicate dosing to 15 drops and will cut back peroxide to 30ml once per day and observe if there are any changes. If things continue to improve or look clear, I may even add in some corals again!

Interesting - thanks for update. The goal is to have a system that doesn't need constant oxidation/ algae killing to keep dinos away, but has established diversity that fills the role dinos would occupy. Maybe you are moving in that direction.
The idea that the variable sensitivity to peroxide between dinos and diatoms, combined with addition of Si can pressure the dinos and let diatoms win doesn't seem super likely, but who knows - maybe it's workable.
Following with interest.

(P.S. I once explored an h2o2 + vibrant combo, but that didn't pan out.)

 

[aras]

Totally right - that is large cell amphidinium. Common misconception is that since the sand looks clearer overnight, they go into the water. They do not, instead they go down into the substrate, from what I can tell - more like the underside of sand grains rather than burrowing down some inches.

Do you think it's possible to force them into the water column by blasting sand and rocks with a strong flow or manually stirring, turkey baster, etc? Just wondering if UV would be of any use at all or a complete waste...

 

[Radman73]

Do you think it's possible to force them into the water column by blasting sand and rocks with a strong flow or manually stirring, turkey baster, etc? Just wondering if UV would be of any use at all or a complete waste...

For what it's worth, I tired that for a week or so and they dino's got steadily worse. Then I read how stirring them up can make them think they're endangered and they begin to multiply faster. Seemed to be my case and when I stopped blasting them they steadied out and then began to recede.

Totally right - that is large cell amphidinium. Common misconception is that since the sand looks clearer overnight, they go into the water. They do not, instead they go down into the substrate, from what I can tell - more like the underside of sand grains rather than burrowing down some inches.


Interesting - thanks for update. The goal is to have a system that doesn't need constant oxidation/ algae killing to keep dinos away, but has established diversity that fills the role dinos would occupy. Maybe you are moving in that direction.
The idea that the variable sensitivity to peroxide between dinos and diatoms, combined with addition of Si can pressure the dinos and let diatoms win doesn't seem super likely, but who knows - maybe it's workable.
Following with interest.

(P.S. I once explored an h2o2 + vibrant combo, but that didn't pan out.)

I think it's important to note that I'm dosing the Microbacter7 stuff too. I haven't seen any presence of diatoms like I was expecting. This does make me wonder if perhaps adding the MB7 is adding enough biodiversity to turn the tide. Though perhaps slightly greater competition from biodiversity and an unnoticeable amount of diatoms combined with peroxide weakening the dino's are all working together. Basically, I can't explain why I'm seeing positive results, but I am seeing them lol!

Now that the lights are(still blue so harder to see) on I'm seeing some hazy patches on the sand but they're extremely light so I'll continue my dosing regime and continue monitoring.

 

[taricha]

Do you think it's possible to force them into the water column by blasting sand and rocks with a strong flow or manually stirring, turkey baster, etc? Just wondering if UV would be of any use at all or a complete waste...

No. Large cell amphidinium cling to the sand sooo well. You'll never push them into the water in enough numbers to be helpful. UV might have other benefits, as well as preventing other strains from cropping up while fighting these amphidinium.

For what it's worth, I tried [stirring sand] for a week or so and they dino's got steadily worse.

The sand beds and their anoxic zones are storehouses of N P Fe and all kinds of other goodies. If you want to read more about how decomposing organic matter in the substrate makes all kinds of yummy stuff available check this paper out:
Organic Matter Degradation Drives Benthic Cyanobacterial Mat Abundance on Caribbean Coral Reefs
I'm certain that stirring sand increasing dinos has more to do with liberating these goodies than with agitating the dinos themselves.

I think it's important to note that I'm dosing the Microbacter7 stuff too. I haven't seen any presence of diatoms like I was expecting. This does make me wonder if perhaps adding the MB7 is adding enough biodiversity to turn the tide. Though perhaps slightly greater competition from biodiversity and an unnoticeable amount of diatoms combined with peroxide weakening the dino's are all working together. Basically, I can't explain why I'm seeing positive results, but I am seeing them lol!

Almost no one who has had an ongoing dino bloom - then doses Si - ends up seeing a big diatom bloom. It strongly points to the notion that the dinos have already depleted the trace elements down, so even with addition of Si, resources for diatoms are still scarce. Doesn't mean it's not working, Scarce resources being competed for by more organisms than just dinos is absolutely what we are after.
It stands to reason that bacteria could be helpful - only problem is we know that carbon dosing grows lots of bacteria that dinos thrive with. So we want to avoid "bad" bacteria, well what's a source of "good" bacteria? No idea. MB7? Tims? micro-dose of Vibrant? no clue. I haven't seen enough reports to convince me which - if any - bacterial source is reliably helpful.

 

[aras]

No. Large cell amphidinium cling to the sand sooo well. You'll never push them into the water in enough numbers to be helpful. UV might have other benefits, as well as preventing other strains from cropping up while fighting these amphidinium.

What if I removed all or most of the sand, would then UV work (to kill what's left)? I only have a thin layer of sand for cosmetic purposes that is syphoned all the way to the bottom every week, don't think it does that much biologically.

...we know that carbon dosing grows lots of bacteria that dinos thrive with

Wondering if dinos mostly affect people who carbon dose... I started NOPOX around 12 months ago (which resolved my GHA issues). Dinos appeared probably around 6 months after starting NOPOX. By the way, I never aimed for ULN. Always tried to keep phosphates/nitrates at Red Sea recommended levels for mixed reef...

 

[Kaleb W Bellamy]

Here is the best photo I can get of my dinoflagellates in a microscope. Do I have amphidinium or something else?

 

[saltyhog]

Maybe, possibly, I'm winning the battle.

I started with ostreopsis, bought a UV sterilizer and all that seemed to do was allow amphidinium to take over. The dino's kept getting worse while all I was doing was raising nutrients. After doing more reading, I decided to start dosing H2O2 twice per day, 1ml/gallon. That seemed to stop the growth but really it was just causing it to recede a little and then recover. Finally, I started dosing Microbacter7 at 2ml/gallon once per day. I saw maybe marginal improvement over a week. I also started dosing silicate(sponge power) at 1 drop/gallon once per day. I started blasting my sand to stir up the dino's but that seemed to just make them come back stronger so I stopped. Went away for a weekend, so no dosing, and came back to more dino's then I'd seen in a while. Went back to dosing the H2O2 and MB7 and a week later, the dino's are almost all gone.

Did you really dose Microbacter 7 at 2 ml/gallon?! That could get expensive in a hurry and is about 10x the recommended maximum dose! That would be over 300 cc in my tank and about $12-13 per dose!

 

[Idoc]

Here is the best photo I can get of my dinoflagellates in a microscope. Do I have amphidinium or something else?

Too difficult to make a identification from that picture. Sometimes when you have a glob of gunk on your side, it's easier to look at the edge of it to see the dino cells.

 

[Radman73]

Did you really dose Microbacter 7 at 2 ml/gallon?! That could get expensive in a hurry and is about 10x the recommended maximum dose! That would be over 300 cc in my tank and about $12-13 per dose!

Bah, good catch. It was 2ml/10gal.

 

[taricha]

What if I removed all or most of the sand, would then UV work (to kill what's left)? I only have a thin layer of sand for cosmetic purposes that is syphoned all the way to the bottom every week, don't think it does that much biologically.


Wondering if dinos mostly affect people who carbon dose... I started NOPOX around 12 months ago (which resolved my GHA issues). Dinos appeared probably around 6 months after starting NOPOX. ...

Large cell amphidinium won't swim en masse no matter what. It's not what they do. Weird, I know.
heavy carbon dosing is probably one of the strongest correlations with dinos just behind heavy GFO use.

Here is the best photo I can get of my dinoflagellates in a microscope. Do I have amphidinium or something else?

what @Idoc said, plus, take a video so if a cell moves through the field of view maybe we can ID it. No identifiable cells in that view.

 

[dvbrien]

x

 

[Wxguy23]

Did you really dose Microbacter 7 at 2 ml/gallon?! That could get expensive in a hurry and is about 10x the recommended maximum dose! That would be over 300 cc in my tank and about $12-13 per dose!

I dosed Microbacter 7 for two weeks at 3 caps a day for my 75gal....I have more dinos than ever. I was shocked.