Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[FlyinAg]

I have a theory that dinos release something toxic into the water column.

For whatever reason, I have serious issues with my coral unless I do a water change at least every 2 weeks of 33%. I have a 300g + 60g sump, I change 100g every 2 weeks. I used to do water change every 1-2 months or less. I can't think otherwise what is forcing me to water change so much. I don't have any high nutrients. My Nitrates, Phosphates etc would be at zero if I didn't dose them. What else could be either building up or lacking in the tank?

I dose b-ionic 2 part calc/alk, neonitro, neophos, and silica every day.

I don't have rust or anything else according to lab test I do every so often. What else could be happening that forces such frequent water changes if I'm dosing. Right when I do water change, my corals look better almost same day every time. There must be something building up, or something lacking that the water change is balancing.

Hard to tell without knowing your parameters. I can 100% say this: Dinos release toxins of varying potency based on species as many others have reported. I think some are much more insidious than others based on toxicity, whereas some just wipe everything out quick.

I had large cell ampidinium verified by microscope. They are supposed to be:
1) less toxic than some other species
2) mostly sand dwelling

During the worst part of my infestation, I had corals and snails suffer. I lost a couple Astreas and my acan and montipora suffered color and tissue issues the most out of all my corals. At first I thought it was cranking the temperature up. However, after bringing it down with no change to snail or coral health, followed by a positive change in snail/coral health AND dino demise after raising it back up to 83 deg, I ruled temperature out as the causal factor of poor health. I also had a positive effect on coral and snail health by increasing the amount and frequency of change of my Rox carbon. So, better health with increased temp, increased carbon usage, and decreased dino activity.

To me, that is a direct correlation of toxin to health. The 3 day blackout/uv/carbon/peroxide combo devastated the dinos quick and everything really started to improve as quick as the dinos were gone.

Thus, I agree, there is some toxicity as other have stated. For your plight, I would recommend confirming what kind of dinos you have, share some pics with the group, and tell us what you have been doing to fight them. I apologize if that has already been done previously in this 91 page thread. If you are not using Rox carbon and changing it once a week during a dino infestation that is something you should probably try.

Remember that a 33% water change only removes 33% of whatever is in your water. If something is producing that toxin, it will be nearly impossible to keep up with water changes as a sole method of toxin removal. Even if you were trying to remove a static level of toxin in your water, you get diminishing returns with each subsequent water change as the toxin is diluted (33% of 33% or 33% of 33%, etc).

 

[ScottB]

Haha close, Ag for Aggie, as in Texas A&M grad. Haven't flow a crop duster yet, but might get a chance. I fly much faster stuff

Oh my. Faster than a +800hp turbo prop (PT-6A) Air Tractor? That is smoking fast. Twin or turbine?

 

[FlyinAg]

Oh yes, twin engines that each make that 800hp turboprop look like a duck fart. No props

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Hard to tell without knowing your parameters. I can 100% say this: Dinos release toxins of varying potency based on species as many others have reported. I think some are much more insidious than others based on toxicity, whereas some just wipe everything out quick.

I had large cell ampidinium verified by microscope. They are supposed to be:
1) less toxic than some other species
2) mostly sand dwelling

During the worst part of my infestation, I had corals and snails suffer. I lost a couple Astreas and my acan and montipora suffered color and tissue issues the most out of all my corals. At first I thought it was cranking the temperature up. However, after bringing it down with no change to snail or coral health, followed by a positive change in snail/coral health AND dino demise after raising it back up to 83 deg, I ruled temperature out as the causal factor of poor health. I also had a positive effect on coral and snail health by increasing the amount and frequency of change of my Rox carbon. So, better health with increased temp, increased carbon usage, and decreased dino activity.

To me, that is a direct correlation of toxin to health. The 3 day blackout/uv/carbon/peroxide combo devastated the dinos quick and everything really started to improve as quick as the dinos were gone.

Thus, I agree, there is some toxicity as other have stated. For your plight, I would recommend confirming what kind of dinos you have, share some pics with the group, and tell us what you have been doing to fight them. I apologize if that has already been done previously in this 91 page thread. If you are not using Rox carbon and changing it once a week during a dino infestation that is something you should probably try.

Remember that a 33% water change only removes 33% of whatever is in your water. If something is producing that toxin, it will be nearly impossible to keep up with water changes as a sole method of toxin removal. Even if you were trying to remove a static level of toxin in your water, you get diminishing returns with each subsequent water change as the toxin is diluted (33% of 33% or 33% of 33%, etc).

Frustration update lol:

I think 9-10 months into dino battle. Summary:

Only thing that seems to work is Silica, but I cannot pull it back without bloom coming back, even slowly over months.

I dosed Silica until bloom beat out LCA dinos.

Coralline and corals started growing back, fish & snails started eating algae again which got overun when the dinos made it not tasty. All was well...

Started pulling back on silica to cut to zero over 1 week period. Dino's flared up again, this time small cell bloomed up with some LCA still mixed in.

I spent $1000 on Promax 120 UV. Ran that, ramped up Silica, diatoms + maybe UV? killed off dinos again.

Pulled back SLOWLY on silica over like 2 months, and by time I got to 7ml/day in 300gal of Spongexcel, I notice dinos flaring up again, even though I test and Silica is at .39ppm still? Diatoms under scope are scarce now. Before was 10:1 diatom:dinos, now 1:10 it reversed. Bubbles all over rocks again. Yay

Will ramp up Silica once again, and see if I can push the dinos back again.

The only other thing that I did differently is I did a pretty big vacuum where I did pull up 3-4 cups of sand, so the top layer of sand which had some algae/diatoms/dinos/cyano mixed in. Sand looked great after, but now dinos back, not sure if it's from the vacuum or drop in silica?

I've quoted my last post which sums it all up

Parameters: .20 Phosphate, 6.6 Nitrate, 420 Calcium, 10.2 alkalinity, 1.0245 salinity, 78f temp, 1250 magnesium, .50 Silica, 8.20 ph

I am pretty sure I have at least 3 species of dinos lol. I think LCA, Prorocentrum, and either SCA or Symbiodinium-like (Chrysophyte?) per Taricha's ID doc. @taricha once said he saw LCA and Prorocentrum I believe when I had call with him if I remember correctly. The SCA or Crysophyte are a light transluscent golden color. They look different than most photos of dinos. with less internal body structures apparent. More like clear golden ovalish bubbles.

I didn't mention above, but I've tried blackouts, h202, vetteguy method, carbon dosing, none of those worked. vetteguy method they went away, but came back right away. Only thing that seems to work is heavy Silica consistently and just deal with Diatoms lol. UV doesn't seem to be helping much, if anything I am wondering if it's hurting my diatoms because it's harder for me to induce diatom bloom recently. Dinos winning the battle after I started to lower silica dose, then increased it back up. Before diatoms would take over pretty quick, within a week. Now I'm at 3 weeks heavy silica dosing with slow progress. (15ml SpongExcel/day 360g tank)

Sorry photos suck. I don’t know how to make it so reef2reef doesn’t compress quality. They look better on phone.

 

[FlyinAg]

Man that is frustrating. Such a weird pest. I am still just amazed at how this is such a thing in modern times and wasn't even an issue from what I remember 15-20 yrs ago.

 

[ChrissyK75]

Does anyone have any experience with using an osmolator to help with dinos? I've read in the thread here somewhere that hydrogen peroxide can help with dinos so I thought an osmolator might be an option. I've always been a little gun shy to use hydrogen peroxide in my tank and I didn't know if it would even be helpful w/ large cell amphidinium (ID confirmed by microscope). I have a 150G mixed reef tank. Parameters are as follows:
Sp. G.- 1.025
Ph - 8.16
temp - 78.3
dKH - 8.25
Ca - 403
Mg - 1364
ORP - 401
NO3 - 4.2 (working on bumping this up a touch)
PO4 - .09
I'm using Microbacter 7 and Dr. Tim's waste away, added supplemental O2 via air stone, will begin vacuuming sand bed with return through a 1 micron filter sock (no water changes). I do have some algae building up daily on the glass so I'm going to let that ride to outcompete for nutrients. Running carbon in the sump. Protein skimmer running dry. Will be dosing silicates once I get the order in.
Anything else I should be looking at?
(picture of my problem child for attention

)

 

[taricha]

Does anyone have any experience with using an osmolator to help with dinos? I've read in the thread here somewhere that hydrogen peroxide can help with dinos so I thought an osmolator might be an option.

are you thinking oxydator? Some have used it, and like it - others say it hasn't had much effect.

(picture of my problem child for attention

)

Sorry, that's the after shot for "I used to have ugly algae but now my tank is stunning and full of happy corals and fish"

but for real, if you want to post a close-up of your nuisance areas, that might help but I wouldn't consider any real significant changes when the tank is actually going great like that.

 

[ChrissyK75]

are you thinking oxydator? Some have used it, and like it - others say it hasn't had much effect.


Sorry, that's the after shot for "I used to have ugly algae but now my tank is stunning and full of happy corals and fish"

but for real, if you want to post a close-up of your nuisance areas, that might help but I wouldn't consider any real significant changes when the tank is actually going great like that.

Yes...sorry....oxydator is what I meant. I have one but kind of think it's overkill for where I'm at right now. This seems to be isolated to the sand bed for now. At first I thought it was just diatoms which I get on and off because I tend to have a heavy hand with feeding. I got myself into trouble trying to get nutrients down to grow acros. I did confirm it is dinos under the scope though. I think I'm going to just take the more conservative approach and stick with vacuuming sand bed, dosing phyto, boosting nitrates a bit, and consider dosing silica (once I get my hands on a test kit). Thanks for the positive words

 

[taricha]

. I did confirm it is dinos under the scope though. I think I'm going to just take the more conservative approach and stick with vacuuming sand bed, dosing phyto, boosting nitrates a bit, and consider dosing silica (once I get my hands on a test kit). Thanks for the positive words

Yes, absolutely. I strongly believe that if your system is happy, then the measures in response to dinos should be very small, or maybe even nothing at all except to suck out the discolored surfaces.

 

[FlyinAg]

Argh they are back with a vengeance. Frustrating. AND I have had high nutrients. Back to the drawing board.

 

[agol77]

After battling LC Amphis for about six months at the start of my last tank, they went away and that tank ran smoothly for another three years. I’ve just set up a new tank, and three months in, and I’m back in the club that nobody wants to be in. I’ve maintained high nutrients on purpose with this one (NO3 > 10ppm, PO4 - 0.1-0.3ppm), used cycled media from the old tank (didn’t use the old rock, as it had aiptasia and vermetids), added plenty of corals early on, from a few different vendors to hopefully increase micro-diversity, running low intensity light, no skimmer running yet, only dosing All for Reef, and added lots of pods at the start.

I noticed the dreaded brown patches start to appear on the sand a few days ago, so put a sample under the microscope today, and there they are. There aren’t many, yet, but it’s getting noticeably worse each day. I’m really not looking forward to what’s to come.

I’m not going to do anything drastic, and will keep nutrients steady, maintain my 10-20% weekly water changes, syphoning out as much as I can each time, and will start dosing Sponge Excel.

Once more in to the breach….

 

[saltyhog]

After battling LC Amphis for about six months at the start of my last tank, they went away and that tank ran smoothly for another three years. I’ve just set up a new tank, and three months in, and I’m back in the club that nobody wants to be in. I’ve maintained high nutrients on purpose with this one (NO3 > 10ppm, PO4 - 0.1-0.3ppm), used cycled media from the old tank (didn’t use the old rock, as it had aiptasia and vermetids), added plenty of corals early on, from a few different vendors to hopefully increase micro-diversity, running low intensity light, no skimmer running yet, only dosing All for Reef, and added lots of pods at the start.

I noticed the dreaded brown patches start to appear on the sand a few days ago, so put a sample under the microscope today, and there they are. There aren’t many, yet, but it’s getting noticeably worse each day. I’m really not looking forward to what’s to come.

I’m not going to do anything drastic, and will keep nutrients steady, maintain my 10-20% weekly water changes, syphoning out as much as I can each time, and will start dosing Sponge Excel.

Once more in to the breach….

SpongExcel is very dilute and not very practical. I would recommend dosing water glass instead. 0.2 ml/15 gallons of water volume daily. Dilute each dose in a good amount of RO/DI water and pour it slowly in a high flow area. LCA can take a while to resolve but it's mainly an eye sore. Not toxic.

 

[agol77]

Urgh! Been dosing silica for about a week, so thought I’d put a sample of water and substrate under the microscope, to see how things are progressing. Not a single diatom in sight, but lots of large cell Amphids, but today they were joined by a few Prorocentrum, and a lone small cell Amphid.

 

[thedon986]

Well, after shutting down my last setup after a year of no progress fighting amphidinium I set up a new system with Tampa Bay Saltwater sand and rock and now about 3 weeks in I saw the familiar sand patches developing. Really at a loss at how quickly these showed back up. This is beyond infuriating. Will do my best to ignore them and dose silicates, phyto and pods. The system is packed with diversity so I just don’t understand how they showed up so quickly. I have some cyano on rocks from sponge die off and algae growing on my larger sand grains. I haven’t touched the sand since it was added 3 weeks ago or done water changes. My TDS meters on my RODI system show double zero on both DI chambers but my pen shows 1-2ppm in freshly filtered water, 2-3 in my ATO reservoir. Any coincidence?

Nitrate 8ppm
Phosphate .14ppm

Can someone help with positive ID? This is at 1000x and I definitely saw one or two Dino cells that were 2-3x bigger. Small cell amphidinium??

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Well, after shutting down my last setup after a year of no progress fighting amphidinium I set up a new system with Tampa Bay Saltwater sand and rock and now about 3 weeks in I saw the familiar sand patches developing. Really at a loss at how quickly these showed back up. This is beyond infuriating. Will do my best to ignore them and dose silicates, phyto and pods. The system is packed with diversity so I just don’t understand how they showed up so quickly. I have some cyano on rocks from sponge die off and algae growing on my larger sand grains. I haven’t touched the sand since it was added 3 weeks ago or done water changes. My TDS meters on my RODI system show double zero on both DI chambers but my pen shows 1-2ppm in freshly filtered water, 2-3 in my ATO reservoir. Any coincidence?

Nitrate 8ppm
Phosphate .14ppm

Can someone help with positive ID? This is at 1000x and I definitely saw one or two Dino cells that were 2-3x bigger. Small cell amphidinium??

You said you have lot of diversity, but it's a newer tank?

Looks like SCA or Crysophytes?

 

[thedon986]

You said you have lot of diversity, but it's a newer tank?

Looks like SCA or Crysophytes?

The rock and sand is from Tampa Bay Saltwater and is harvested from their offshore lease site in the Gulf. It’s hard for me to get a clear focus on them. In the last pic, the two cells together you can kind of see the wispy shadows around them. Those looked like swimmers almost under the microscope, they were definitely moving them. Never seen that before. The small patches that are forming definitely look like the rust, slime brown patches of my nightmares.

 

[agol77]

I’m pretty sure it’s too early to claim victory, but I’ve not had any noticeable brown patches on my sand for the past week. If anyone is looking for something to try, this is what I did:
- I last posted on the 8th Aug, when I had large and small Amphids, and Prorocentrum under the microscope. The sand was getting browner with each day.
- My nutrients have always been high, with PO4 at 0.2 - 0.3, but I did dose a bit of nitrate when it dropped below 10ppm, to keep it at about 12ppm.
- I put in an order for some live rock rubble from a company here in the UK called Rock n’ Critters.
- Whilst waiting for the rubble to arrive, I did small water changes every other day, just to syphon the brown off the sand. It probably added up to about a 30% water change over the week.
- The live rock rubble arrived last Thursday, and it was a good mix of sizes, including rock, coral skeletons, and sand. I put this in a separate tank for 24hrs, just so I could check to see if any pests showed up, which they didn’t.
- On the Friday, I did another water change and syphon, then added the rubble, including sand, to my tank. I spread it all over, and mixed it all together. I like a clean sand bed, so the bits of rock and skeleton make me a bit twitchy, but I can always remove it in the future.
- The next day, only a tiny patch of sand started to turn brown, rather than half of the tank, and it was nowhere near as bad as usual. I left it.
- On Monday, that patch was still there, but hadn’t grown or gotten darker, and then on Tuesday it was gone.
- My sand has been clean, with no brown patches at all for the past couple of days.

As I said, it’s too early to start celebrating, but there’s definitely been a change, and it looks to be for the better. I’ll put some sand under the microscope later, to see what’s what.

TLDR: I did some extra water changes, mixed some live rock rubble in to my sand, and the sand has stayed almost completely clean for a week, and completely clean for the past couple of days.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I’m pretty sure it’s too early to claim victory, but I’ve not had any noticeable brown patches on my sand for the past week. If anyone is looking for something to try, this is what I did:
- I last posted on the 8th Aug, when I had large and small Amphids, and Prorocentrum under the microscope. The sand was getting browner with each day.
- My nutrients have always been high, with PO4 at 0.2 - 0.3, but I did dose a bit of nitrate when it dropped below 10ppm, to keep it at about 12ppm.
- I put in an order for some live rock rubble from a company here in the UK called Rock n’ Critters.
- Whilst waiting for the rubble to arrive, I did small water changes every other day, just to syphon the brown off the sand. It probably added up to about a 30% water change over the week.
- The live rock rubble arrived last Thursday, and it was a good mix of sizes, including rock, coral skeletons, and sand. I put this in a separate tank for 24hrs, just so I could check to see if any pests showed up, which they didn’t.
- On the Friday, I did another water change and syphon, then added the rubble, including sand, to my tank. I spread it all over, and mixed it all together. I like a clean sand bed, so the bits of rock and skeleton make me a bit twitchy, but I can always remove it in the future.
- The next day, only a tiny patch of sand started to turn brown, rather than half of the tank, and it was nowhere near as bad as usual. I left it.
- On Monday, that patch was still there, but hadn’t grown or gotten darker, and then on Tuesday it was gone.
- My sand has been clean, with no brown patches at all for the past couple of days.

As I said, it’s too early to start celebrating, but there’s definitely been a change, and it looks to be for the better. I’ll put some sand under the microscope later, to see what’s what.

TLDR: I did some extra water changes, mixed some live rock rubble in to my sand, and the sand has stayed almost completely clean for a week, and completely clean for the past couple of days.

Omg please we pray, this works long term and we can replicate this!!! Please please please keep us updated! Also link to the rubble you used please!!

 

[agol77]

Omg please we pray, this works long term and we can replicate this!!! Please please please keep us updated! Also link to the rubble you used please!!

The sand is still clear today, and not a sign of any brown at all. I didn’t have time to check under the microscope, and will have to do that on Monday now. I forgot to mention in my previous post that I’ve also been dosing Sponge Excel, 15 drops per day in my 90gal tank. I’ve not seen any noticeable increase in diatom growth, and stopped dosing it today, so will continue to monitor things.

Below is a link to the live rock rubble I bought. I’m in the UK, so only useful for those here.

Rubble Live Rock per/Kg

Buy Rubble Live Rock per/Kg on Rock N Critters for £26.99

www.rockncritters.co.uk

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

The sand is still clear today, and not a sign of any brown at all. I didn’t have time to check under the microscope, and will have to do that on Monday now. I forgot to mention in my previous post that I’ve also been dosing Sponge Excel, 15 drops per day in my 90gal tank. I’ve not seen any noticeable increase in diatom growth, and stopped dosing it today, so will continue to monitor things.

Below is a link to the live rock rubble I bought. I’m in the UK, so only useful for those here.

Rubble Live Rock per/Kg

Buy Rubble Live Rock per/Kg on Rock N Critters for £26.99

www.rockncritters.co.uk

To be safe. I would try to pull back on the Silica slowly personally. You said you don't see diatoms, but they may be there, and if you pull back right away it may just result in dinos coming in to fill that void. Hopefully it's the rubble that fixed things, and stays fixed. If it works, I bet that company will make a fortune because thus far we have no other options besides UV, Silica, and blackout/peroxide which are only temporary for many/most I think. I'm like 1 full year or more into dino battle and I've tried everything lol.