Anyone successfully using TM Plus NP?

[bandando]

My tank has PO4 < 0,01 mg/l. and NO3 0,5 mg/l.
I started 11 days ago with NP Plus to increase the phospate.
I begun with 25% of full dose.
This morning I did a PO4 test (Tropic) but always 0,01. Tomorrow I will increase the dosage to 50%.
The skimmer is running very different, more dark and bad smell.
At the moment I have not seen any big differences with corals, maybe they are a little bit more swollens.
To be honest, I never had big troubles with them but I don't want to mantein values too low, it is no good for animals.

 

[bandando]

@Hans-Werner If I understood well, dosing NP Plus the PO4 test have to detect an increasing of the phospate.
Do you confirm?
Thank you

 

[exnisstech]

@Hans-Werner If I understood well, dosing NP Plus the PO4 test have to detect an increasing of the phospate.
Do you confirm?
Thank you

Not Hans but I did read that in one of his posts. Nitrate is not to be tested or at least not to be used to judge plus NP dosage.

 

[exnisstech]

The skimmer is running very different, more dark and bad smell.

I don't run a skimmer on this tank. I wonder if one is needed when dosing plus NP? I have cheato in a fuge and would have to remove that to run a skimmer. I like the fuge for pods.

 

[bandando]

Not Hans but I did read that in one of his posts. Nitrate is not to be tested or at least not to be used to judge plus NP dosage.

I agree about nitrate, it is useless to check it but I wrote about phosphate.

 

[bandando]

I don't run a skimmer on this tank. I wonder if one is needed when dosing plus NP? I have cheato in a fuge and would have to remove that to run a skimmer. I like the fuge for pods.

I always read the it is very suggested the skimmer with carbon dosing

 

[exnisstech]

I agree about nitrate, it is useless to check it but I wrote about phosphate.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Phosphate can be tested From Hans in This thread
"When dosing Plus-NP or NP-Bacto-Balance please ignore nitrate and only check for phosphate"

 

[Dan_P]

I've been reading posts about plus NP for several days but haven't found the answers I'm looking for. Are any of you using plus NP successfully to raise nutrients? From what I have read we can not measure what plus NP is adding to the tank so how are you judging success? I am considering trying this product as I have terrible GHA and I'm not a person that freaks out over some here and there. The algae is growing very well but many of my sps frags are not doing much and comments about a few from people with more experience with SPS said it looks like they are starving. I'm currently dosing N and P to keep level detectable but the tank doesn't look any better so I'm wondering if plus NP would be worth a try but am concerned how to know if its working since I can't test for it. I just don't want to make matters worse. Also take note I now little to nothing about chemistry

I would really like to hear from people actually using the product please
@fishface NJ I read in one of the post from September that you were using it?

If you have a specific nutrient you want to add, add it. Using secret blends should be avoided.

 

[bandando]

If you have a specific nutrient you want to add, add it. Using secret blends should be avoided.

The problem is to dose in available form for the corals.

Sorry but it is not easy for me translate in english these argues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The problem is to dose in available form for the corals.

Sorry but it is not easy for me translate in english these argues.

Nitrate and phosphate are available to corals. Might other forms be "more" available? maybe. Does that mean one should try to dose those other forms that may be harder to measure or control? Seems tricky to me.

 

[bandando]

I try to explane what I understood.

NP Plus supplies to the water P and C.
With carbon dosing there is the bacterial proleferation.
The phosphate is available to the corals through the bacteria, no directly.
This way should be better for feeding.

I'm not expert but I like undertand this very complicate mechanisms.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I try to explane what I understood.

NP Plus supplies to the water P and C.
With carbon dosing there is the bacterial proleferation.
The phosphate is available to the corals through the bacteria, no directly.
This way should be better for feeding.

I'm not expert but I like undertand this very complicate mechanisms.

That is a proposal, yes. It may be true, or not, that such a method is "better".

I do like organic carbon dosing in general for the ability of the bacteria that grow to feed filter feeders. IME, this helped sponges grow faster.

 

[bandando]

Thank you for your confirm.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I read a statement @Hans-Werner made (don't remember the post because I have been reading many) but he stated you can not use plus NP to raise measurable N and P because the ingredients are not measurable using hobby grade test kits yet I keep reading people talking about testing when dosing plus NP so I'm a little confused.

This is especially true for the majority of nitrogen compounds in Plus-NP since a good proportion of N in Plus-NP are organic nitrogen compounds.

Phosphate will be found after a few days. The dosed phosphates will not be found immediately in full concentration. After enzyme enhanced hydrolysis it will be found also by test kits. Corals, algae and bacteria under low phosphate conditions excrete the enzyms that will enhance this polyphosphate hydrolysis for takeup. This will occur in a few hours.

In a range of days the dosed phosphate will occur in the normal "phosphate metabolism" of the aquarium and will be just as easy or diffucult to find as any other phospate. So if you continue with regular Plus-NP dosing the full phosphate concentrations may be found with a maximum delay of 1 or 2 days, but this should be no problem at all.

If I understood well, dosing NP Plus the PO4 test have to detect an increasing of the phospate.
Do you confirm?

Yes, this is correct, as you can read above. Our instructions are generally adjusted to a possible delay in finding the full phosphate concentration.

Nitrate and phosphate are available to corals. Might other forms be "more" available? maybe.

Regarding nitrate please see here and here. Maybe the best source for nutrient effects on corals still is the dissertation of Shantz at the Florida International University.

I did my first trials with reduced and organic nitrogen compounds on one side and nitrate on the other side more than 25 years ago and the results were in perfect agreement with the images and results given by Wiedenmann, D'Angelo et al. in the first two links. The trials described there are aquarium trials.

Nitrate may have the negative effects described in the links, especially under low nutrient conditions. Nitrate is easily throwing nutrients out of balance when phosphate concentrations are low. This is why I don't advocate dosing nitrate as the only nitrogen source.

P. S: Just after I had written these lines I had an e-mail about a brand new article on exactly this subject matter. This was really "just in time". Phosphatase enzymes are the enzymes that hydrolyse both, organic phosphates and polyphosphates dosed with Plus-NP.

I am extremely surprised about the 100 % agreement with the lines I have written just minutes before. I have contact to Christine Ferrier-Pagès from time to time, but I don't know how much our short discussions on nutrients influence the experiments of her lab.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

P. S: Just after I had written these lines I had an e-mail about a brand new article on exactly this subject matter. This was really "just in time". Phosphatase enzymes are the enzymes that hydrolyse both, organic phosphates and polyphosphates dosed with Plus-NP.

I am extremely surprised about the 100 % agreement with the lines I have written just minutes before. I have contact to Christine Ferrier-Pagès from time to time, but I don't know how much our short discussions on nutrients influence the experiments of her lab.

I would argue that the paper you quote does not really have info bearing on the question of optimal N and P sources and concentrations.

"These results suggest that under nitrate enrichment, corals were unable to increase their ability to rely on DOP and replenish their cellular P content."

Reefers are not generally asking corals to upregulate DOP uptake. They typically provide inorganic phosphate at levels far above natural levels, which perhaps solves the issue just fine.

Nitrate at 5 ppm and phosphate at 0.05 ppm, for example (both of which are well above NSW).

What I would find convincing is a test of corals grown under that 5ppm/0.05 ppm scenario, and corals grown under any different scenario that someone thought was better.

 

[ninjamyst]

I been dosing NP Plus on my 240g total volume tank. I also been feeding heavily with benepets and reef roids so its hard to tell whether NP Plus is working or additional food is working or both. I still have 0 nitrates on my test kit but I will say that my faded LPS are now brighter than the day I got them. I will continue dosing NP Plus but because of my large tank, it's very expensive to keep this going long term. The only size available is a small bottle at $13 and I go through that a month or so. I am on my 2nd bottle and have another one coming. But after the 3rd bottle, I will find something more economical. I tried Brightwell before but I absolutely hate their bottles. The cap is a pain to remove and I get up throwing both nearly full bottles away in frustration. I went with NP Plus because it's simpler to use and it's one dose with both N and P.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I would argue that the paper you quote does not really have info bearing on the question of optimal N and P sources and concentrations.

"Phosphatase activity is increased under nutrient depletion or ammonium enrichment.

•
Phosphatase activity is impaired under nitrate enrichment.

•
The cellular N : P ratio becomes imbalanced under nitrate enrichment."

This thread is about supplying nutrients to a reef tank. If the nutrient concentrations in a tank are already high it seems not necessary to me to do so.

The organic N compounds supplied with Plus-NP are finally non-toxic forms of ammonium and will release ammonium or ammonia upon hydroysis.

I want to state that the effects of the nitrogen compounds in Plus-NP are very similar to ammonium supply and contrasting to plain nitrate supply.

The compounds that make up Plus-NP complement each other very well, see first citated point of this article.

Finally, the development of Plus-NP was done from practical application in reef aquaria and without the aid of this brand new article. I just wanted to show that latest scientific findings confirm my findings regarding different available nitrogen compounds and that balance and ratio may play a role.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Phosphatase activity is increased under nutrient depletion or ammonium enrichment.

•
Phosphatase activity is impaired under nitrate enrichment.

•
The cellular N : P ratio becomes imbalanced under nitrate enrichment."

This thread is about supplying nutrients to a reef tank. If the nutrient concentrations in a tank are already high it seems not necessary to me to do so.

The organic N compounds supplied with Plus-NP are finally non-toxic forms of ammonium and will release ammonium or ammonia upon hydroysis.

I want to state that the effects of the nitrogen compounds in Plus-NP are very similar to ammonium supply and contrasting to plain nitrate supply.

The compounds that make up Plus-NP complement each other very well, see first citated point of this article.

Finally, the development of Plus-NP was done from practical application in reef aquaria and without the aid of this brand new article. I just wanted to show that latest scientific findings confirm my findings regarding different available nitrogen compounds and that balance and ratio may play a role.

I don't doubt you did lots of studies to show the benefit, and it may be better than dosing nitrate and phosphate themselves, but none of the rest of us have seen such data to support it.

 

[bandando]

@Hans-Werner As I wrote, I am dosing Plus-NP since beginning of November.
On 180 litres, 0,5 ml/day for firsts 12 days and now 1 ml/day.
The PO4 are <0,01 yet but my opinion is that the tank is improved.
I go forward but at the moment I will not increase the dosing.

For feeding corals, I would like to use Phytonic and Zootonic.
Are there troubles with carbon dosing of Plus-NP?

In other threads I read your answers about the total combined dosage of more products but it is not clear for me.

With 1 ml/day of Plus-NP , can I start with the minimum quantity (0,2 ml/day) of Phytonic and Zootonic? is it better dosing together separately? daily or every 2-3 days?

Thank you

 

[bandando]

After 23 days of dosing Plus NP the PO4 value is ever < 0,01(Tropic Marin Professional Lab).
The tonality of the test is small changed from yellow to celeste but the change is really very very little.
I go forward ...