Are we ruining the hobby???

[Joedubyk]

I see what you're saying, but if the only corals around are the overpriced designer corals, it may force the average people (who can't afford them) out of reefing.

This hobby without the corals takes a lot of people out. Tanks + the entire infrastructure is expensive. There are still cheap corals out there. ORA red planet, green slimer, etc.

 

[pirate2876]

Dam I'm excited to get to acro stage

Hope you like spending money

 

[Arthroverts]

I've been a marine aquarium hobbyist since 1965. Actually, we did quite well back then at keeping all types of fish, inverts, anemones, etc. I had many tanks and worked at Marine World in the Chicago area. Tanks were beautiful, basic, and most fish lived well. Myself and friends had all sorts of fish that would spawn and it was an enjoyable hobby. I loved seeing fish from all over the world: Pinecone fish from the South China Sea, Purple Tangs from the Red Sea, Clownfish from the Phillipines, fish hand caught by Rodney Jonklaas in the Indian Ocean, chunks of rock with sponges, gorgos, and corals from the Keys, all kinds of inverts, etc. With just a basic understanding of nitrogen cycle, the hobby was fun and relatively inexpensive and accessible to most folks.

Then in the 80s the hobby transformed into reefkeeping with the ability to keep more corals. As time has gone on the hobby progressed from most folks not being able to keep too many different corals and buying colonies to where we are today with designer corals and tiny frags.

In some respects this has been the natural progression, as equipment such as lighting and skimmers, etc. have improved--so has the ability to not only keep but propagate most corals.

When Pacific East Aquaculture started in 1999-2000 we sold lots of colonies and started growing some frags. We described the corals as Blue Acropora or Pink Bird's Nest and that was sufficient. At that time most folks were thrilled to just be able to just keep such corals alive. Naturally, over time we saw many of our customers become vendors as the ability to keep corals became more understood and easier so did the ability to propagate them. This progression was great.

At some point several years ago the number of coral vendors grew exponentially. I recall being one of maybe 3 coral vendors at MACNA in DC years ago to now there are close to a hundred. Things began to change as the industry became more competitive. In order to stand out and sell their corals vendors began using crazy names and prices to create so-called limited editions. Auctions started, and live sales, all in the interest of driving the hype, increasing sales, and profitability. Great, right? It's the American way, right? Good marketing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining about this progression, just observing from many years on the inside. But, have we gone too far? Is where we are at now healthy for this hobby/industry? Are we bringing in enough new hobbyists to sustain it all? Have we made this into a rich man's hobby?? $1500 1/2 inch designer Acro frags, 25,000 angelfish, $1000 must have controllers, $800 can't live without LED fixtures, impossibly complicated dosing regimens, etc., etc! Have we killed the joy?

The weekly live sale or Ebay auctions and the endless hype leads to the frenzied hobbyist that is constantly trying to one-up other hobbyists. Tanks filled with tiny frags and the thought by many that if I get the latest designer coral I can grow it out and make a fortune.

But, what about the future of the hobby? Are we making it too complicated, too expensive, too elitist?? Are star polyps, leathers, and bubble corals no longer enough? Of course not, right?

True story: several years ago at a swap, (I use to be a vendor at about 25 a year), I had about 30 frags of really nice blue Zoanthids. Many folks came up to our booth and liked them, but they asked "what's the name"? When I shrugged my shoulders and said blue zoos, they walked away even though they liked the coral. By the early afternoon I became frustrated and started calling them King's Ransom Zoanthids. As the afternoon crowd flocked in we started selling them. Soon I had folks coming up asking if I had any of them King's Ransoms! And indeed, the very same coral that we couldn't sell any, sold out within a couple hours. What did this show me? Obviously I'm really dumb about marketing!! OK, admittedly, I still prefer, to my detriment, to say Blue Acro instead of Rainbow Swirl Atomic Passion Acro. Sure I'd sell more Atomic Passions, but it still gives me an icky feeling. Yeah, I know, I'm just dumb!

So, I know this thread will bring endless responses about how the designer craze is not what most folks want and object to it. But, at the same time I'll see someone ask "ID please, what's the name of this" , and they don't mean Acropora sarmentosa, they want Atomic Passion.

OK, so I'm getting to be an old curmudgeon. Maybe so, I've always been more of an old school low tech reefkeeper. I shun most new technology. I feel it makes things too complicated, expensive, prone to disasterous failures, and drives off potential new hobbyists. I'm so tired of folks coming into my store that are new hobbyists that feel reef tanks are impossible to keep or are bogged down in and endless string of agonizing problems from water chemistry perplexities to nuisance algae to losing all their fish to a parasite because they bought one fish at the local pet shop staffed with high school kids with zero experience.

I know, the Genie is out of the bottle now and it ain't going back in! So, just get with it old man!


I worked here late 60s - mid 70s. At the time they ran ads in TFH and other magazines on the theme of "I'm not so rare at Marine World" and showed a different fish each month, such as the then rarely seen Flame Angelfish!

We went from barely being able to keep corals alive to now propagating them easily. But, have we gone too far?? Designer names, insane prices, expensive equipment made out to be essential, complicated dosing requirements, etc. Where does this ultimately take us???

What about bringing new hobbyists in? The kids? Does everyone have thousands$$$ to afford that "impossible to keep" reef aquarium?

Anyway, it's been an interesting journey. Can't wait to see what's next. The coral export bans are transforming the hobby again. We shall see how it all turns out in the next year or two.

This is an excellent view from the inside. For me personally, it has been quite a struggle to get everything together affordably, and I do think that this "hobby" is becoming more of a business and less of a hobby for many people. Most new corals and new equipment I will likely never possess unless it's a gift or I suddenly come into a large sum of money, as it is just freakishly expensive. Even now we see a lot of the "classic" corals selling for tidy sums of money, and used lighting, even at half the price of the original, is still very expensive for those on a budget.
I am finding though, as you said, that we don't need loads of equipment, as my tank is a very bare bone's setup and yet the softies and fish we have right now are thriving as far as I can tell.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I hope that one day there will be a push back against the skyrocketing prices and that a lot of stuff will come back down to the realm of affordability. This hobby ain't cheap by any means, but it doesn't have to be as expensive as many make it out to be.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[TonysReef]

Solid thread. I was in the hobby for a long time, but took about ten years off and only get back into the mix this year. The landscape (aquascape) has certainly changed. In most cases I think for the better, but certainly not all.

A few of my thoughts (mostly already posted):

1. The naming/lineage craze is annoying. I would be more on board with it if there were a catalogue somewhere with a board that agreed on all the names and lineages. Some brief information and genealogy, along with pictures under blues and under a white spectrum for reference. But as it stands most corals/zoas can't be referenced and uninformed buyers are too easily suckered into overpaying for a frag of atomic rainbow whatever the ****. But I do think that in the long run "captive" strains are in everyone's best interest.
2. My two biggest gripes at the moment are selling tiny frags and misrepresenting corals by always displaying/photographing them under 100% blues. The lighting is deceptive and by selling such small frags you're banking on the buyer not being able to grow the frag into anything meaningful or potentially make a profit themselves. The odds are too high that something will happen to an sps in the years it will take a 1/2" frag to become a viable colony. But people are willing to pay and support it, so how can you fault vendors for taking advantage. In the end the customers decide on the price.
3. Export bans have obviously had the most impact. When torches were readily available they weren't expensive. One day they're impossible to get and the price skyrockets. No real surprise there. With climate change and habitat destruction I would expect it to become more commonplace in the future. No way around it. So coral farms stateside are beneficial to the hobby. The less reliance we have on the ocean the better.
4. I disagree with many of you that say it's too expensive to get into the hobby for newcomers. It's expensive of course, it always has been, though. But there are still plenty of cheap corals to be found if you don't NEED the newest and greatest or have collectoritis.
5. I'm ok with auctions, less so with live sales. Live sales seem to be overhyped and aren't really such great sales, they're just preying on your fear that someone else is going to grab the item, so you need to get it first. Auctions seem a fair way to get the most you can for a piece and as a customer you don't need to worry about being fastest to click. You can debate and research and decide what the most you're willing to spend at your leisure.

 

[fcmatt]

I have debated this topic before as I have been in the hobby with saltwater for 25 plus years.

The one thing I have to say is there is a huge difference in eye popping corals available today then there was many many years ago. And since they are so amazing their price is fair considering how long you would have to wait at your local fish stores year after year to get anything close to them. You would have to visit the day the shipments arrive week after week and closely examine what comes in versus going to several websites and just shop. That is why those designer named corals cost so much because my time and energy is not free and it takes a staggering amount of energy/resources to acquire them the "old fashioned way". If you want common corals most people will give frags for free if you are part of your local community. But I do want to stress you have to have viewed a ton of corals in person to understand what is amazing versus blah with a catchy name.

As for the cost of gear.. meh.. saltwater tanks were never cheap to do correctly for each time period being discussed if you understood what was required for basic success. With knowledge comes the ability to stop purchasing junk gear and buy what is truly required. That is where forums like this excel. But if someone wants to spend more on their sump then my whole setup.. they are free to do that because it is their money. Plus I enjoy the eye candy.. lol.

All in all.. about all we can do is make it easier for new folks to join the hobby is by giving out solid advice, bare minimum basic kit lists, and push them to hardier corals/fish before jumping into the high end.

As time goes on.. the core point of this hobby is to have a slice of the ocean in our homes which is simply amazing.

 

[Photosynthetic]

In a lot of ways the designer stuff might just SAVE the hobby.

Think about it. People propogate the designer stuff to trade corals, to sell etc... These designers are great because they have been in aquaculture for GENERATIONS now which makes them much hardier than maricultured or wild. So they are hardy AND people want them. No one is going to aquaculture duncans or some random zoas/mushrooms. You can't make a living or make it worthwhile propagating 5 dollar frags.

At some point Id imgine there will be almost full bans on imports. The only way we'll be able to sustain the hobby is from our own propagation. With corals that people actually want and will pay for, it will actually be something that coral farmers can make a living on, doing.

Nail hit on the head. Any human market will act the same way. Whether that be orchids, guppies, or corals. Corals may be propagated somewhat differently from those things, but it makes no difference to a market. Lineage means semi reliable appearance and hopefully aquaculture for a prolonged period of time. No wild maricultured colony could make those claims. That's why they cost more. Do vendors take advantage...sure, just like anywhere else. If one is interested in progressing towards all aquaculture it does not behoove us to fight lineage. What would be awesome is a governing body that can organize the whole mess

 

[Ricky_Reef]

I agree with many of your points, I remember setting up my first saltwater tank in high school solely off of what I made bussing tables and delivering pizza's! Single bulb fluorescents with under gravel filters were the norm, cheap and got the job done.... 35 years later I have to take out a second mortgage in order to get Radions and Apex gear! Lol.... The hobby has definitely changed but you only live once I guess so I deal with the times as much as my wife and wallet will let me!

 

[freshy&salty]

Score my vote for 1 of the longest posts Ive read. Now Ill go for longest reply hehe.
As a relatively new reefer (2 yrs) and a "nano reef" owner, I cant get enough "old timer" knowledge and opinions. I agree and disagree but always listen.
As far as "ruining the hobby" goes, without a lot of history in it my opinions only good for so much, but I'm going to say no. I think reefing is alot like fashion.

Theres the trendy, uptight, high society, calvin klein, tommy hilfiger only type folks and then theres the Carhartt, flannel wearing working folk. Neither is right or wrong so to speak, just chosen styles that fit someones way of life. As an engineer I much prefer the KISS method to doing things and follow the rule "if it aint broke, dont fix it". Adding more controllers and monitors, probes, lights, and pumps is not keeping it simple and only adds to the odds that something will go wrong. But some people travel or have limited time so I understand their uses.

Cost IMO is the same as anything else. As expensive as you choose to make it. Ive known people with multi-k $ units and people with complete DIY setups and the results are purely based on effort put in. Maintain either system with a regular routine and I believe the results will be the same. Same results with neglect to either system. Whether you choose to pour a bucket or push a button, water is still being changed, and if you can afford the button and it works....

I use the trendy side of coral as a guide to spotting "real" reefers vs "Dr offices aquarium" reefers(you know the aquariums you see in the lobby that change every week cause everythings for display not for "keeping healthy" and growing out. Personally, if you try to sell me a "snowy mountain unicorn fart" as a coral, I feel I can safely assume youre a Drs office aquarium keeper and the corals are probably starved for nutrients and on their last leg and 5x what they should cost. Every successful reefer I know calls things what they are. Paly's, zoa's, acan's are true descriptions of things and makes me feel the seller has some care knowledge. When I hear zoa I automatically know what food and light are generally needed, whereas could you tell me what type of coral is a "unicorn fart"? Unknowns in an aquarium is a scarey way to go. In theory as living organisms, every single 1 is a unique version. Ive seen fragged corals go into 3 different systems and all come out very different even though they started as 1 same type. If you want that "limited edition", just grow it. Buying it doesnt guarantee itll stay a "limited edition".

Every hobby has its Pintos, and Mercs but it comes down to preference. I believe there are more "true reefers" then "trendy keepers" and it just seems opposite because 1 screams on the corner peddling their wares while the other is too busy underwater doing maintenance to notice.

I dont think theres a question that reefing is conservation. My niece is 2yrs old and the way the oceans are headed, my reef is possibly the only chance shell ever have to see live coral. Personally I think all coral are limited editions now so even "boring", "horrible" coral like Xenia are fun and exciting to see flowing and moving in the current.

.......After reading your post I had thoughts and ideas but somehow while typing I forgot what they were and what we were talking about. Its been a long rough week. Ignore me , Im delirious.

 

[BeejReef]

I can't help but inherently agree but begrudgingly accept.

What is a "priceless" painting worth? What's a cigar worth?
Seems likely, at some point, people will collectively decide it's not worth the money. Happened before!

Tulip mania - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mattdg]

The name thing is annoying, for sure. But, I have to admit that when I am looking at a coral in another hobbyist's tank, or on line and I REALLY like it, it is very helpful to know the name and lineage.

As we all know, purchasing a frag, can look much different than an entire colony of the same SPS coral. I, for one, have had better luck growing strong colonies, from frags with a long history in the hobby rather than adding full grown coral aquacultured or otherwise, to my tank only to watch it partly change color or die off while it adapts to the parameters of my system.

I guess what I am saying is, this hobby is adapting like any other and offering more options, to realize your personal vision, than ever before. Not a bad thing.

 

[User1]

The name thing is annoying, for sure. But, I have to admit that when I am looking at a coral in another hobbyist's tank, or on line and I REALLY like it, it is very helpful to know the name and lineage.

As we all know, purchasing a frag, can look much different than an entire colony of the same SPS coral. I, for one, have had better luck growing strong colonies, from frags with a long history in the hobby rather than adding full grown coral aquacultured or otherwise, to my tank only to watch it partly change color or die off while it adapts to the parameters of my system.

I guess what I am saying is, this hobby is adapting like any other and offering more options, to realize your personal vision, than ever before. Not a bad thing.

I hear what you are saying but 99% of the corals we buy do not have any papers that ship with them. There is also no registry.

ORA is the closest thing I've seen. So much so that they have contacted people they know they shipped to asking for frags if their colony had issues.

 

[Schnell76]

Longtime reefer here (but new to this site). WWC R2R auctions got me here, go figure! I was going thru old pictures and found one of my 58 Oceanic reef tank from mid 90s. Had huge leathers and other softies, and gasp...a naso tang that was 6-7” and a moderate size yellow tang (tang police soon come). Had a hang on sump with simple media filter. Remember hardly doing water changes. Fish and coral were all healthy until I tore down the tank and moved out of state. To this day I still have a similar style tank (except a skimmer, chiller and ATO). I do water changes more often now do to heavier coral load but other than that keep it simple stupid has been my motto. I don’t have a controller, heater, reactor, fuge or any other new gadget. Heck, I hardly test my water. I go by the time tested theory if it looks good and it’s open testing is a waste of time and test kit. My way of doing things has worked for me for 30 yrs, so while I can appreciate the new reef technology I don’t subscribe to much of it. I think the way new hobbyists gets into reefing is to keep it simple. Hobby has gone too far with accessories.

 

[Jordan Prather]

@PacificEastAquaculture was following along with your page on the indo ban which I think you closed. I'm not trying to derail from your post which I completely agree with by the way. Has there been any updates i heard suzi was voted out which i thought was promising but didnt know if you had heard any updates.

 

[jokerman826]

Well said Dr Mac

I have been to Pac East many times. I dont think i have asked them the name for anything i see there. I just point at it, ask for the price and if itsnt too crazy, i will most likely get it. Yeah some corals have "cool" names, but i never remember them unless i keep saying it many many times.

I was running a somewhat successful tank for 7 years. I then figured that having tank automation would help out a lot since i travel a lot and my wife would have to take care of everything. So i do run APEX

I dont see the need for $800 lights, or dosing constantly. Water changes take care of what i need. I attempted to start dosing, but starting having issues. (Guess my tank was used to what i was doing prior).

THe hobby has grown a lot in my short time and I have nothing on Dr. Mac. But i agree with what he said.

On a closing note, if you have a chace to see Pac East in person, do it.

 

[totalbiz]

I agree with most of you. When I started it was leaisure time hobby that relaxed me. Then, people started telling me what I couldn't live without in terms of equipment. One person contradicted the other. Then the wildly colored corals started to show up. A 1" for $500, what a bargin. Well, personally, I like to try and create a tiny piece of the ocean. I want natural looking corals. Not some kind of "neon glow" something or other. I have brown mushrooms and enjoy then tremendously. I like to think this is what a tiny part of the ocean looks like in my aquarium. Fish and corals. all natural looking. That is my "thing", and I enjoy it. So, if you think some of this stuff is ridiculous, then relax and get a few of those ugly corals in the corner that no one wants. I'll take em!

 

[LadyMac]

I feel ya there as for stuff being out of budget. I am a home health care provider for my brother in law. I bring home less than minimum wage, and my husband is filing for disability due to his back. He has no income. We have our moms living here( one is retired, both have health issues so we try to help them) while they do what they can we skim by through the grace of God.

My setup was a generous win through this forum. I received it yesterday. I can see why it’s priced what it is. I’ve never been in the presence of something so nice. It’s a replacement for my tank that about sent me completely out of the hobby, broken hearted.

The equipment inside, would be embarrassing compared to what most have. The skimmer is a cheap Venturi, but it’s reliable. The powerheads are nice, Current USA. I had to get them one at a time, a year apart. My heaters are a Sunsun and a Top Fin. My return pump is an off name brand but again it works. Im working on side jobs to save up for the light, thankfully the member here doesn’t have it actively listed, so I can have the light of like to have.

My corals were gifts, from my late dad and my mother in law, mom and daughter. My rocks came from bargain hunt lol. My frammer, or whatever it is, I traded half my rock and a 40 breeder for it.

I can appreciate every aspect of my setup due to having to wait, plan my purchases and having my family involved in them for and with me.

As for the hobby going downhill, I don’t know if it is, because I see people making purchases. I see people willing to pay the prices asked. I wish it were cheaper, and totally take advantage of sales and extremely willing to barter with anyone on everything. However, in my hometown it’s pretty lack. I have one store locally. They have one marine ten gallon tank with usually a clown, damsels and hermit crabs.

 

[Lance A. Lot]

I love the designer sticks on Instagram as much as the next guy. What brings me back to the basics are is when I go do maintenance on a tank I set up in a grade school. I put some small fancy sticks in it to begin with but the kids found them boring. They called them "fuzzy rocks". Their new favorite corals are GSP, Pulsing Xenia, and big green palythoa.

 

[Joshua Kerstetter]

This like all businesses is like a seesaw. I'm relatively new to the hobby, but I think places like local frag swaps, 3d printing your own parts, and the massive amount of DIY helps keeps things in balance. Yeah there's always going to be people that pay $300 for that 1/2" frag, and if they can grow it out and sell it, good for them. I'm more than happy to buy 6 frags for $100 from another local hobbyist.. and be happy as hell if I can keep most of them alive. There's always a spectrum, the equipment craze and escalation really bugs me, the amounts that manufacturers are asking people to spend on stuff that's re-badged Chinese made stuff over the Chinese stuff will always amuse me. In the end, I personally am a reef keeper for those challenges, I can't make things pretty, or even acceptable sometime, but it always gives me something to clean, test, or just admire at breakfast with my kids. I don't need anything expensive for the sake of being expensive to make me happy doing this.

 

[Greybeard]

I will purchase nothing with a designer name. Right there with you... it's destroying the hobby. Won't even open a thread on ID'ing corals anymore... they don't want an ID, they want someone to tell them it's some sort of fancy named limited edition.

Everyone realizes that those glowing (photoshopped) frags are NOT going to look the same in your tank, under your lighting, right?

Used to go to frag swaps where people actually SWAPPED FRAGS! Bring your fast growing frags, trade them for what other folks have grown. These days, there isn't anything changing hands without CASH.

As for equipment, I'm thankful for the abundance of reefing gear these days. Yes, you can spend way, way too much on high end gear, but at least you CAN buy the stuff. Back when I started, I wanted to use the fancy gear the articles out of Germany were talking about... but you couldn't buy it here. Yes. You can pay $800 for an LED light. Or... you can buy a very high quality T5 setup for half that... and they still grow corals just fine. You can pay $400 for a fancy powerhead... but if you're willing to give up the fancy features, Amazon has ones that will move water just fine for 10% of the cost.

 

[HotManwich]

As for the hobby going downhill, I don’t know if it is, because I see people making purchases. I see people willing to pay the prices asked. I wish it were cheaper, and totally take advantage of sales and extremely willing to barter with anyone on everything. However, in my hometown it’s pretty lack. I have one store locally. They have one marine ten gallon tank with usually a clown, damsels and hermit crabs.

The town I live in doesn't even have a saltwater store. We have one small mom and pop pet shop, all FW. To get anything saltwater I have to drive an hour or more to the next town over, two hours more if I need something specialty. Living in the middle of nowhere has its ups and downs.