Are we ruining the hobby???

[sde1500]

If hobbyists really want to make some money growing corals, concentrate not on trying to grow out and make a fortune on the latest glow in the dark Acro. Instead, grow easy to keep softies. Local stores would buy as many as you can grow. I sell tons of green star polyps, Xenia, Leathers, galaxea, etc. Those are the corals that most folks want. They all grow quickly, don't die for some silly reason, don't change in color constantly depending upon the amount of foo foo dust sprinkled on them.

R2R appeals to the "desinger" crowd. All the Live Sales and Auctions. That's fine, live and let live. It's not really my way. Sometimes we all border on being the proverbial used car salesman, the auctions and live sales give me that feel.

I think you nail it with these two quotes. Facebook, Insta, auctions, and R2R, they really aren't indicative of the hobby at large. Face it, most people in a hobby get somewhat into it, participate in it through whatever means they do, and thats it. It may not be "hardcore" persay, but to join forums and constantly talk about it, thats next level. Those are the types of people that are more likely take things a step further, through high end equipment, pricey/flashy corals, etc. Not saying they all do, but that is my feeling/experience. Being that run of the mill corals tend to still be the bread and butter for many stores proves that the average hobbyist is not going for the crazy stuff, thus this hobby will be fine. Much more threatened by the bans than silly names and high prices on some corals.

A named coral frag should be genetically identical to the original colony. Those are the rules of the name game but many coral vendors aren't even aware of these rules.

I'd disagree. Because I don't think anyone has ever really said that. You're talking lineage, and lineage is ridiculous. Two coral colonies side by side could look exactly the same, be harvested and sold as the same name, but not be clones. To go with the most basic recognizable name, eagle eye zoas. Most anyone knows what they look like, but are they all clones? no. They are a common color variant from Vietnam.

I think the problem is as a new person to this hobby (me) you never hear about how to do it cheaply but effectively.

Then you didn't look very hard. All the forums are rife with budget builds. I've spent a decent chunk, but hardly have gone insane on my build. No build thread here yet, but basic research can easily point out how little is actually needed to run a reef.

I believe a lot of people who can't afford the "higher end" stuff hate on it because they can't afford it.

I believe that attitude is garbage. Most people aren't jealous of others spending 1k on a "rainbow" tenuis that is missing 4 of the colors of a rainbow. They think it is silly.

Personally, if you try to sell me a "snowy mountain unicorn fart" as a coral, I feel I can safely assume youre a Drs office aquarium keeper and the corals are probably starved for nutrients and on their last leg and 5x what they should cost. Every successful reefer I know calls things what they are. Paly's, zoa's, acan's are true descriptions of things and makes me feel the seller has some care knowledge.

I've moved very few corals around my current tank over the 3.5 years it has been up. I know the care of all of them. I also know the trade name associated with almost every single one of them that has one. As a new aquarist, I'd suggest avoiding writing someone off so quickly just because they know the trade name of a coral. Take a spin around the SPS forum for Farmer Ty or Bubbaque, among many others, and see that they both keep amazing tanks and can give you the trade name of the dozens or hundreds of corals they have.

 

[freshy&salty]

I dont neccesarily write them off, i just know the next thing theyre gunna say is "its on sale".

 

[2Sunny]

"Designer" corals in fact originate in the ocean. That's part of my rant, someone put a goofy name on them and claimed themselves as the discoverer. No such thing as a "designer" or "high-end" coral, it's all hype and marketing that all sellers do nowadays. Some are lighthearted about it and some take it to an extreme.

The reefkeeping hobby is a niche market. Appealing to "high-end" collectors is an even smaller piece of the pie. However, there are tons of vendors vying for those buyers--while there are fewer vendors that cater to all hobbyists or actively try to appeal to new hobbyists or strive to bring in new hobbyists or reach out to kids to spark their interest in the reefs--aquariums or not.

If hobbyists really want to make some money growing corals, concentrate not on trying to grow out and make a fortune on the latest glow in the dark Acro. Instead, grow easy to keep softies. Local stores would buy as many as you can grow. I sell tons of green star polyps, Xenia, Leathers, galaxea, etc. Those are the corals that most folks want. They all grow quickly, don't die for some silly reason, don't change in color constantly depending upon the amount of foo foo dust sprinkled on them. R2R appeals to the "desinger" crowd. All the Live Sales and Auctions. That's fine, live and let live. It's not really my way. Sometimes we all border on being the proverbial used car salesman, the auctions and live sales give me that feel.

Didn't read the whole thread so if this has already been said then my apologies. First, I don't have anywhere near your years of experience, but I have been doing this for a while now and I couldn't agree more. The secondary issue for me as evidenced by your response to a "newbie" above is that many of the young and new hobbyists assume that naming of corals is the norm, and they are unable to distinguish fact from hype. I have to laugh because I have a gorgeous colony that looks like a high end named frag colony that I bought from Live Aquaria for $120 as a large (6 inch colony). The thing is people new to the hobby can't see that a "named" coral is just a nasuta or a prostrata or a secale or a whatever with red polyps and green/blue body so just look for that if that is what you like. I will say that the variety of corals available today in terms of color morphs has dramatically increased and that is a good thing. I am certain that as these new colors became more common the prices will drop as for example the once high flying "Rasta" zoos which are now fairly common.

Anyways, great thread. Couldn't agree more. For the record here's a reef grown from frags and except for the Oregon Tort and Tyree, I'm pretty sure I never paid more than $20 for a frag of anything

 

[Dana Riddle]

I've been a marine aquarium hobbyist since 1965. Actually, we did quite well back then at keeping all types of fish, inverts, anemones, etc. I had many tanks and worked at Marine World in the Chicago area. Tanks were beautiful, basic, and most fish lived well. Myself and friends had all sorts of fish that would spawn and it was an enjoyable hobby. I loved seeing fish from all over the world: Pinecone fish from the South China Sea, Purple Tangs from the Red Sea, Clownfish from the Phillipines, fish hand caught by Rodney Jonklaas in the Indian Ocean, chunks of rock with sponges, gorgos, and corals from the Keys, all kinds of inverts, etc. With just a basic understanding of nitrogen cycle, the hobby was fun and relatively inexpensive and accessible to most folks.

Then in the 80s the hobby transformed into reefkeeping with the ability to keep more corals. As time has gone on the hobby progressed from most folks not being able to keep too many different corals and buying colonies to where we are today with designer corals and tiny frags.

In some respects this has been the natural progression, as equipment such as lighting and skimmers, etc. have improved--so has the ability to not only keep but propagate most corals.

When Pacific East Aquaculture started in 1999-2000 we sold lots of colonies and started growing some frags. We described the corals as Blue Acropora or Pink Bird's Nest and that was sufficient. At that time most folks were thrilled to just be able to just keep such corals alive. Naturally, over time we saw many of our customers become vendors as the ability to keep corals became more understood and easier so did the ability to propagate them. This progression was great.

At some point several years ago the number of coral vendors grew exponentially. I recall being one of maybe 3 coral vendors at MACNA in DC years ago to now there are close to a hundred. Things began to change as the industry became more competitive. In order to stand out and sell their corals vendors began using crazy names and prices to create so-called limited editions. Auctions started, and live sales, all in the interest of driving the hype, increasing sales, and profitability. Great, right? It's the American way, right? Good marketing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining about this progression, just observing from many years on the inside. But, have we gone too far? Is where we are at now healthy for this hobby/industry? Are we bringing in enough new hobbyists to sustain it all? Have we made this into a rich man's hobby?? $1500 1/2 inch designer Acro frags, 25,000 angelfish, $1000 must have controllers, $800 can't live without LED fixtures, impossibly complicated dosing regimens, etc., etc! Have we killed the joy?

The weekly live sale or Ebay auctions and the endless hype leads to the frenzied hobbyist that is constantly trying to one-up other hobbyists. Tanks filled with tiny frags and the thought by many that if I get the latest designer coral I can grow it out and make a fortune.

But, what about the future of the hobby? Are we making it too complicated, too expensive, too elitist?? Are star polyps, leathers, and bubble corals no longer enough? Of course not, right?

True story: several years ago at a swap, (I use to be a vendor at about 25 a year), I had about 30 frags of really nice blue Zoanthids. Many folks came up to our booth and liked them, but they asked "what's the name"? When I shrugged my shoulders and said blue zoos, they walked away even though they liked the coral. By the early afternoon I became frustrated and started calling them King's Ransom Zoanthids. As the afternoon crowd flocked in we started selling them. Soon I had folks coming up asking if I had any of them King's Ransoms! And indeed, the very same coral that we couldn't sell any, sold out within a couple hours. What did this show me? Obviously I'm really dumb about marketing!! OK, admittedly, I still prefer, to my detriment, to say Blue Acro instead of Rainbow Swirl Atomic Passion Acro. Sure I'd sell more Atomic Passions, but it still gives me an icky feeling. Yeah, I know, I'm just dumb!

So, I know this thread will bring endless responses about how the designer craze is not what most folks want and object to it. But, at the same time I'll see someone ask "ID please, what's the name of this" , and they don't mean Acropora sarmentosa, they want Atomic Passion.

OK, so I'm getting to be an old curmudgeon. Maybe so, I've always been more of an old school low tech reefkeeper. I shun most new technology. I feel it makes things too complicated, expensive, prone to disasterous failures, and drives off potential new hobbyists. I'm so tired of folks coming into my store that are new hobbyists that feel reef tanks are impossible to keep or are bogged down in and endless string of agonizing problems from water chemistry perplexities to nuisance algae to losing all their fish to a parasite because they bought one fish at the local pet shop staffed with high school kids with zero experience.

I know, the Genie is out of the bottle now and it ain't going back in! So, just get with it old man!


I worked here late 60s - mid 70s. At the time they ran ads in TFH and other magazines on the theme of "I'm not so rare at Marine World" and showed a different fish each month, such as the then rarely seen Flame Angelfish!

We went from barely being able to keep corals alive to now propagating them easily. But, have we gone too far?? Designer names, insane prices, expensive equipment made out to be essential, complicated dosing requirements, etc. Where does this ultimately take us???

What about bringing new hobbyists in? The kids? Does everyone have thousands$$$ to afford that "impossible to keep" reef aquarium?

Anyway, it's been an interesting journey. Can't wait to see what's next. The coral export bans are transforming the hobby again. We shall see how it all turns out in the next year or two.

Well said. I got involved in the marine hobby in 1964. I saved my allowance and paid $1.50 for damelfishes. Later, in the late 80's when Georg Schmidt's articles invigorated the hobby, I could buy a coral colony for $40. Nowadays, I can get a thumbnail-sized frag for that. Don't get me wrong - the beauty of today's frags are much better than the brown Acros I bought in the 80's. Thank goodness for the nano tanks.

 

[DHill6]

I gave away an Aussie Gold Torch a few years. Who would’ve known it was going to be worth 600. Literally take this off my hands moment. On the corals, everything goes around just like the decades. Popular at this point in time.

 

[Reef Raff]

Great insight into how the industry has change dramatically, I began reef keeping in the late 90’s and things have really changed even since then. I agree that many Corals are over hyped and priced but I don’t necessarily agree that it will hurt the future of reefing. The younger generation is all about designer everything, I actually believe that it may help bring in the younger generation. I do participate in live sales and you can get some great deals, I also rock with reputable fair dealers e.g., Unique Corals, pacific reef aquaculture and Austin Aqua Farms who for example have a double head of Aussie gold torch for 399 with free shipping. I spend a lot of time almost feels like a part time job finding deals, something I enjoy doing. And if you can avoid instant gratification Corals are kinda like electronics in a few years their much more reasonable. Theirs a ton of resources for budget tanks and always a wide availability of basic still beautiful cheaper Corals, and for the savvy buyer their are reasonable prices.

 

[sawdonkey]

I’m guilty of buying somewhat expensive corals and somewhat expensive equipment. However, I try to keep my system simple. On one hand, I have Orphek lights, an apex, and have a lot of SPS that I paid between $50 and $100 for a frag (and a couple that exceeded that). On the other hand, my skimmer is seven years old, I dose Kalk through my ATO, and have quite a few unnamed acros.

Knowing that I can sell frags does come into my decision to buy higher priced corals because.......I do sell a decent amount of frags. I don’t frag frags. My # 1 goal in this hobby is to create a beautiful tank with large colonies. I’m not looking to have a sexy frag tank full of $$$ coral. I glue all of my coral to my rockwork and when they are about to touch.....I frag and I sell. Given the number of colonies I have, I have to cut them somewhat often. Because I’ve been doing this for a long time, I know that after about 1.5 years after buying a frag, that there’s a good chance I’ll recoup my money, even if I sell for half of what I paid (which is what I try to do).

What I find most odd about this hobby is that there seems to be a lot of coral collectors, rather than reef builders. Growing high end corals on a bunch of 4 inch tiles has no appeal to me.

 

[Katrina71]

A vendor wrote this??? You know we love your coral, but even more impressed with your customer service and honesty.

 

[User1]

A vendor wrote this??? You know we love your coral, but even more impressed with your customer service and honesty.

Your stock price just went up

Also - if I recall you are like me and a happy T-Shirt owner

 

[Katrina71]

Your stock price just went up

Also - if I recall you are like me and a happy T-Shirt owner

Yes! I was blown away when they were at our expo 2 years ago. They talked to my son like any other adult reefer. He was 9. His very first Expo deal was made. Beautiful healthy Ric.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Naming corals with silly names is easy, generates excitement, and forces a higher price. In a word, it's purely marketing; of course. Naming corals by accurate genus and species, not so cut and dried. Some folks are quite convinced about their catagorization, I'm skeptical as to most of their abilities.

Overview of the taxonomy of zooxanthellate Scleractinia

Coral taxonomy has entered a historical phase where nomenclatorial uncertainty is rapidly increasing. The fundamental cause is mandatory adherence to historical monographs that lack essential information of all sorts, and also to type specimens, if they ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But, the name game is just part of the issue.

Are we doing enough to demystify this often confusing hobby, or are we making it more mysterious with more complicated and expensive equipment. What are we doing to attract new hobbyists and ignite a spark in kids? Are we actively recruiting?

We have many school and youth groups tour our facility. Beyond capturing their attention with a touch tank my primary focus is to excite them in hopes that possibly I implant a spark within them that one day may ignite a passion. My discussion to them is about compounds from corals that may be used to cure human diseases. I give them examples of extracts from corals currently being used and ask which of them might be the one to discover the cure for cancer. The last untapped frontier is the reefs. At our facility we work with researchers at the University of Maryland and Johns Hopkins by supplying them captive grown corals and sponges for their ongoing research projects. I want to help spark an interest in young people to help further such research. I know I have them hooked when they see a serpent starfish for the first time--I watch the sparkle in their eyes. Perhaps they'll recall someday that crazy guy that first introduced them to an actual living Nemo and go on to do something spectacular. Unfortunately, such ventures don't make us a dime, but Rachel kicks my butt to keep doing the tours and lectures, even though I often grumble. In all honesty, I do love seeing the reactions of a group of inner city kids as I squirt them with water from a Sea Cucumber

 

[Katrina71]

I know for sure it only takes one exposure to ignite them! I have proof. The hobby influences his mind in so many ways. From math to ecological issues. It matters!

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

We have a formal work/study internship program for college credit with the University of Maryland. We do tour days at our facility for schools, usual 12 groups in a day of 25-30 students each. In addition we also do Senior days for local retirement groups, and tour day each year for the local historical society.

 

[lotekfish]

We have a formal work/study internship program for college credit with the University of Maryland. We do tour days at our facility for schools, usual 12 groups in a day of 25-30 students each. In addition we also do Senior days for local retirement groups, and tour day each year for the local historical society.

Thanks so much for starting this thread and sparking this ongoing conversation. It has come at a very timely moment in my life when I've started to question whether I still wanted to be a part of this hobby. It is easy to lose your own values and focus when you are surrounded by endless online chatter about people upgrading equipment that is only 6 months old, constantly buying larger and larger tanks, and spending hundreds or thousands of dollars at online auctions.

I got into reef aquariums about 15 years ago because I was interested in learning about the care and husbandry of different species and I enjoyed meeting people to share that information. Back then a club meet felt like going to a science fair. Now it feels like a mass consumerism spawning event, like a black Friday sale where people are scrambling to get the best deal on the latest toy. It is not at all who I am and I don't want any part of it.

This thread has reminded me that there are people out there keeping reef tanks for the beauty and the challenge of it and not as a luxury status item. I am really happy to hear that PEA is involved with teaching school groups. I am fortunate to work as a designer for a company that designs and builds museums, aquariums, and zoos. We have school groups come through our building every week to learn about design and engineering, and for my job I get to think about cools ways to educate kids about animals and the environment. It's that reminder that aquariums can, and should, be teaching moments that keeps me moving forward with my tank full of boring, no name, "beginner" leathers, gorgonians, etc.

 

[bsn_rn_cen]

I recently started a biocube 16 in my office. Very basic. Rock sand and a powerhead. I put gsp and a super basic pink zoa (it doesnt even light up like a Christmas tree with blue light) on the rock. Then right up in the front is an elegance coral. I have a clownfish (all my employees thought I needed a nemo fish) a pajama cardinal and a ywg. I'm sure it sounds super boring to most but I enjoy this tank more and am way less frustrated. I just do water changes and dont stress over the numbers. Sorry I'm rambling I guess I should have stuck with I agree.

 

[S2G]

Are we doing enough to demystify this often confusing hobby, or are we making it more mysterious with more complicated and expensive equipment. What are we doing to attract new hobbyists and ignite a spark in kids? Are we actively recruiting?

Introducing my neighbor to the world of complicated sw filtration. Water leak testing. I just about have him hooked. He was looking at $700 skimmers, $500 sumps, $300 tooty fruity frags the size of a nickel and got sticker shock. I told him if he was really interested come over and I'll show some real world setups. Now were looking at cheap 75 to 125 setups. I'm going to trade him rock and sand for helping with lawn care. My other buddies are going to hook him up with free soft coral and ultra cheap acans etc. I'll quarantine his fish if he chips in a little on salt or brings beer.

 

[fcmatt]

Corals have become pokemon. Gotta catch them all. I am too old for that cartoon when it first came out but i have kids who watched it. Reminds me of it. Colorful coral, different abilities, some are more rare, interesting and flashy names, etc....

Then a person needs the best gear to "capture" them.

These forums are the arenas where you compete.

Ugh. Scary. I think I am onto something. Day to day maitainence is the grinding aspect of the game/cartoon. I am starting to agree with generational changes.

When I started I took pride in knowing the scientific names. I get the feeling if you start communicating in that fashion you will get a lot of blank stares now days.

But those types of changes might keep the hobby growing and when they get older they become the crusty older folks like me who whine on the forum.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Big reef on a budget

One of our 215 gal display tanks

This tank was redone 6 months ago out of boredom from having seahorses in it for years and was then completely revamped with frags from our greenhouse
3 Ocean Revive LED fixtures, 10 hrs all blue then 1 hr blue with full spectrum
2 Jebo return pumps and one additional connected to sea swirl
1 mp40
Reef Octopus skimmer
Mesh bag with carbon in filter sock, sock changed weekly, carbon rinsed weekly and changed monthly
DIY Algae scrubber
Kalk drip via peristaltic pump
Weekly 10 gal water change, ESV salt mix
Feeding twice daily for fish with nori, TDO pellets, and mix of Reef Nutrition products
Feeding nightly for corals via broadcast with in-house grown live phytoplankton, live copepods. live rotifers, and live brine shrimp-all stages.

No other additives, seldom water testing, no controllers.

 

[S2G]

Big reef on a budget

One of our 215 gal display tanks

This tank was redone 6 months ago out of boredom from having seahorses in it for years and was then completely revamped with frags from our greenhouse
3 Ocean Revive LED fixtures, 10 hrs all blue then 1 hr blue with full spectrum
2 Jebo return pumps and one additional connected to sea swirl
1 mp40
Reef Octopus skimmer
Mesh bag with carbon in filter sock, sock changed weekly, carbon rinsed weekly and changed monthly
DIY Algae scrubber
Kalk drip via peristaltic pump
Weekly 10 gal water change, ESV salt mix
Feeding twice daily for fish with nori, TDO pellets, and mix of Reef Nutrition products
Feeding nightly for corals via broadcast with in-house grown live phytoplankton, live copepods. live rotifers, and live brine shrimp-all stages.

No other additives, seldom water testing, no controllers.

I've seen videos of it. Very nice tank.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]