ATI Essentials dosing recommendations

Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley' started by jrp1588, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    60
    Does anyone use ATI Essentials? I'm trying to figure out my initial dosage based on what I have been dosing with the BRS bulk supplements.

    The instructions state:
    "For those who know their daily KH consumption, the optimal starting dose can be worked out from the following formula: 36 ml of ATI Essentials increases the KH value of 100 litres of aquarium water by 1°KH."

    That's all well and good, but they have 2 sets of dilution instructions, with one dilution being twice as strong as the other, and they don't say which dilution the formula applies to. My calculated dosage is coming out to almost exactly twice as much as I used with the BRS stuff, but I have heard the ATI still is a bit more dilute.
     
    drawman, Rakie and GoVols like this.
    Tags:

  2. GoVols

    GoVols Cobb-Webb 1989 R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader MTRCMember Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Partner Member 2018 Partner Member 2019

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2016
    Messages:
    7,816
    Likes Received:
    17,299
    Location:
    In-The-Boro, TN
    @Rakie

    You are the ATI E's man :)
    Do you have any incite for @jrp1588 ?

    Thanks, Freddie
     
    Rakie likes this.
  3. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    5,577
    Location:
    Southern California
    Thanks @GoVols -- I like the system and am always glad to help with it.

    So there's a whole bunch to say about the ATI Essentials system. Firstly, if I can, I would advise to use at least 2 ATI ICP tests. One for the initial or Before test, and one after it's been running a few months. Truth be told, I didn't do this, and I wish I had -- Can't turn back time though.

    @CoralNerd -- Would you mind posting your ATI ICP-Test results here for this thread?

    Things just keep coming to mind on the subject, so in no particular order here's some things to take note of. @jrp1588 -- I'm rambling a lot here. Sorry buddy, hopefully there's some good information in here for you, but there's probably more verbage than necessary to convey my thoughts.

    • Dilution -- Dilute your ATI at full strength, not half strength. So if you have the 10 Liter bottles, mix each bottle to 10 Liters. To do this, you mix 9 Liters of water with your 1 Liter bottle. Giving you a total of 10 L mixture.
    • Why it's so diluted -- Because there's often problems with dosers. As doser heads get worn out, need to be lubed up, need replacement parts, they become less accurate. That means with a VERY strong mix, you're much more likely to have a 1ml swing in dosage cause a large swing in alk. With ATI, it's diluted so that doesn't happen. If you overdose 1ml, it will take days for that to show effect. In something stronger like ME Corals 2 part, you could notice a spike in just a few doses (unless you have a larger tank).
    • Cost -- It's not the cheapest system. It's not very expensive either, but it's definitely not the cheapest.
    • How to Mix -- Mix it with a little powerhead in a small bucket. You would do MUCH better to mix it all at once, all 10L at a time. Each with it's own marked bucket, and it's own small cheap powerhead. You don't want to cross contaminate, and you want to ensure it's all mixed equally and accurately or you'll run into problems.
    • Your system is gonna freak out -- Everyone who switches to ATI seems to have the same thing happen -- Alk shoots up and down all over the place, growth stalls for a month, corals and system likewise have to adjust. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but you have to aggressively test Alkalinity at least twice a day. Your system will go from suddenly not using any alk (Causing a huge spike), to sucking it up faster than you can dose it (Causing a huge drop), and your reaction to these events will cause more instability -- That means if you just put it on and walk away without paying very close attention, you may nuke your tank.
    • Your system will take time to adjust -- Your tank will take 2-6 weeks to adjust fully to the system. I've heard only one person on the other forum say their tank was stable almost right away. It took me a month, it took @CoralNerd maybe 5-6 weeks and lots of tweaking.
    • Water Changes -- I don't like zero water changes. This is purely anecdotal, not a shred of evidence here, just my personal thoughts. Everything still seems to appreciate a nice WC, especially fish. So I equate no WC to being locked in a room with stale air.
    • Nutrients -- Are not the devil. Don't be afraid of having nutrients in your system. I feel nutrients are an important part of the ATI Essentials program. It is NOT a ULNS system, and while ULNS systems do much better with addition of trace elements, I don't believe a lack of nutrients will be beneficial to a program that causes such a dramatic shock to your system -- Just one more thing to stress out corals.
     
  4. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    60
    Thanks for the input. So the suggested starting dosage from the instructions is using the stronger concentration then? I've actually already ran 2 ICP tests out of curiosity, so that's covered.

    Why does the system take so long to adjust? I've been doing 2-part for over a year now. Isn't this just 2-part plus trace?

    As for nutrients, my system is actually phosphate limited. I actually have to dose phosphate. I blame my huge derasa clam. Nitrate is generally 5-10, which is fine with me.
     
  5. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    5,577
    Location:
    Southern California
    I specifically mean ATI's ICP Test. They test for their exact levels of everything, including an RO Water test. So when i say ICP Test, I mean ATI's ICP test. NOT triton. Different program, and while it may seem the same, it's best to keep things copacetic.

    Not sure why the alk dances around like it does, Id wager it's the trace that messes with things. To keep things really simple, Trace are basically similar to nutrients, they nourish your coral. Adding all kinds of different trace may be what causes it to get wonky. Perhaps they sharply start uptaking various different trace minerals and not taking in as much Alk. I'm not sure, I've never heard an explanation, all I can say is be extremely mindful of the wandering Alk numbers. it will literally go all over the place. You will probably need to adjust your doser multiple times per day, if you are on top of things.

    Yeah that's good, i dose no3/po4 myself. I only run a skimmer, and the LR/LS in the display, and my biofilter is very strong.. I can't run Chaeto, or my tank becomes devoid of nutrients and my corals begin to pale and struggle to live.
     
    DieHardPhotog-Reefer likes this.
  6. drawman

    drawman Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    Rakie very nice reply and I hope I'm not hijacking as I have considered switching as well. I'm curious why do you support the ICP tests so much and why in your case do you wish you had done more? This system doesn't allow tweaking of trace elements so I'm not sure what would be gained other than finding out you had a "bad" batch. Also have you noticed better colors or growth? Again thanks for your input :)

    @jrp1588 it is annoying that they don't list which concentration the 36mLs per 100L to raise by 1dKH formula applies to I noticed that as well :confused:
     
    GoVols likes this.
  7. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    60
    Yeah, I asked about this on ATI's facebook page as well. No reply so far, but maybe they'll update the instructions.

    The ICP rests I had done were through ATI since they're cheaper, and that's what my LFS had. Things mostly looked good. I tend to run low on iodine and strontium, and a bit high in aluminum. Aluminum dropped off significantly after I removed my Marinepure block (just an anecdote, but several of my corals improved markedly after its removal).

    Any recommendations on 10lr buckets with measurement markings on them? I imagine they need to be sealable. I'm hoping for something I can source locally since I want to get this started this weekend. I should have read ahead on the directions, I wasn't expecting such large batch sizes. Do home depot buckets have measurements on them?
     
    DieHardPhotog-Reefer likes this.
  8. drawman

    drawman Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    Yeah you almost need something like this:
    https://www.airseacontainers.com/10...IVBy9pCh0fOAz6EAQYBCABEgJm__D_BwE#page=page-1

    But the home depot bucket would be great for mixing it up.
     
    GoVols likes this.
  9. Mrx7899

    Mrx7899 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    490
    Location:
    Hamilton nj
    This is what I'm using 2.5 gallons got them of Amazon [​IMG]
     
  10. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    5,577
    Location:
    Southern California
    The system does allow you to tweak trace elements. They sell each element individually if your system is having uneven consumption issues. As for lowering them, that you can't do. But they've set it to be a baseline of trace elements.

    The idea with the ICP test is to show what you have before, and after dosing. Maybe before you notice you were low in molybdenum and cobalt, obscure minerals -- After dosing you notice everything is on par, or perhaps you notice you're STILL low in Molybdenum and Cobalt, which means you may need to dose those individually. They also test your SG so you can tell if you have, say, an elevated SG, that with an elevated SG your ___ is high, your ___ is out of this world high, but somehow your ____ or ____ is low.

    If you don't know your salinity, your numbers are kind of pointless, because a little change in SG will augment EVERYTHING in your water chemistry. Going from 1.024 to 1.027 means your entire test is off by some amount, compounded by the uncertainty of what your SG was when it was tested. KNOWING that things are high, or low, with a salinity of X, means you'll be able to calibrate how much things will change if you adjust your SG.

    Second, they test your RO water to see if there's anything wrong with your incoming water. This can be hugely beneficial for a lot of people, who don't know if they have issues with their water or not. I've got a buddy whose been struggling with CONSTANTLY green corals. Nothing he did fixed it, and he went as far as to switch up to 3 radions to combat the color issue. I kept saying "maybe it's your RO" but he just changed everything, so how could it be that?

    Guess who has elevated Silica coming out of their RO system? What costs more, a Spectrapure Silica Buster and a single ATI ICP Test, or 3 Radions?

    The fact I support his change to radions is besides the point of course :D
     
  11. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    60
    Yeah, I meant to mention that. The LFS actually got the individual trace bottles at the same time they got the ICP tests. They don't even carry Essentials yet, but I think I talked them into ordering it.
     
    GoVols likes this.
  12. drawman

    drawman Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    Again thanks for the thoughtful reply Rakie :). Yeah I totally agree with the benefit of ICP tests I've used them myself. I guess I didn't realize they sell trace elements independently of their essentials package so that clears the rationale all up. And I agree everything starts with RODI. If you don't have quality coming from your unit then you will be pulling your hair out when acros are concerned!
     
    GoVols likes this.
  13. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    5,577
    Location:
    Southern California
    Yep. Wally B. on the other forum found after more than a year of struggling that his dishwasher (or washing machine) was dripping tainted soapy muck water into his RO reservoir. For like a year, or more. he had no clue it was happening, tried everything, then one day when the ___washer was on (whichever one) he happened to notice it dripping into his RO.. That's absurdly unlucky and unfortunate, but the issues can come even outside of the ro system itself -- nobody expected that to be his issue.

    It's almost *always* water. One way or another. Water should be the first thing you look into, from every point of view possible.
     
    ATI North America, GoVols and drawman like this.
  14. drawman

    drawman Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    It's funny I just read that. I've had water issues before but that would drive me insane lol :eek:
     
    GoVols likes this.
  15. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    5,577
    Location:
    Southern California
    Yep, that would be a real kick in the pants. All the testing, wondering, changes, purchases, then suddenly you walk right by the problem and the new lights, new pumps, and new found reef god religion didn't help a thing.

    I'd say it's bitter sweet. Finally you know what the problem was, but at the same time, you just wanna yell "OMG THAT WAS THE PROBLEM?!"
     
    GoVols and drawman like this.
  16. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    Messages:
    30,797
    Likes Received:
    18,378
    Location:
    Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
    I'm not sure that makes sense for some sorts of problems, but if it is highly variable over a few minutes time, I agree that might happen, but I thought most dosing problems would seem to involve being of by a fixed amount.

    If a doser is off by a fixed volume (say, due to stretching tubing) the dilution has no impact on the over or under dose you deliver.

    If, instead of 1.0 mL per minute it delivers, say, 2 mL per minute, then you dose twice as much alk or calcium as you thought, regardless of whether that happens over 1 minute, 2 minutes, or 400 minutes of dosing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  17. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    60
    I think that was exactly the point he was making. With a more dilute solution, it'll take longer for things to get off.
     
    GoVols likes this.
  18. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    Messages:
    30,797
    Likes Received:
    18,378
    Location:
    Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
    What exactly would you be using the ICP test for that Triton isn't suitable?
     
    GoVols likes this.
  19. MBX5

    MBX5 Active Member Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Messages:
    232
    Likes Received:
    144
    Location:
    Arvada, CO
    My guess is RO which can be done for another added cost with Triton.
     
  20. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    Messages:
    30,797
    Likes Received:
    18,378
    Location:
    Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
    No, that's not a correct interpretation of what I said, anyway. If you make it more dilute, you dose longer, but if the doser is dosing too much, you will still dose too much. The higher dilution only helps if the dosing amount varies over the course of a short period of time (say, I dosing tie period). Not if it is a higher fixed dose.
     
    chipmunkofdoom2 and GoVols like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
Loading...