ATI Essentials dosing recommendations

Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley' started by jrp1588, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    I am very skeptical of that being a useful tool, unless you aren't using 0 ppm TDS water. :D

    IME with users here in this forum, it leads to more confusion than help.
     
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  2. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Member

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    I suppose that makes sense. I guess they probably get a certain percentage off as they wear. Say you dose 100ml more diluted, and 50ml full strength. If the doser is dosing 10% high, it'll dose 110ml dilute, or 55ml full strength, which is effectively the same.
     
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  3. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Yes, that was I was suggesting. I had always assumed that was how most dosers started to deviate:

    https://www.genengnews.com/gen-articles/obstacles-to-presterilized-single-use-filling/2480

    "High-quality peristaltic pumps can precisely dose water-like solutions at slower speeds. Accuracy, however, is directly influenced by the tubing; accuracy drift is common as the tubing that is located in the pump head changes shape over time due to wear. Characterizing and compensating for this drift is mandatory. "
     
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  4. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Member

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  5. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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  6. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Member

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    Thanks, I actually compared my results to an article of yours when I got them. Looks like most of the stuff I'm off on are elements that don't actually have much biological utility.
     
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  7. GoVols

    GoVols VFL R2R Supporter MTRCMember R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    JR,
    Just tagging along.

    (lol)
    Did you figure out your initial starting dose? :confused:

    :)
     
  8. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    The idea was the stronger the 2 part, the more impact will be made by overdosing. No more. No less. That's what I said. Any numbers used were purely there for example. not in any way shape or form to be used as data to come to a conclusion with said fictitious number.

    A buddy of mine with 0 TDS water had elevated silicates and something else which I forgot. Like all things in this hobby, it can be useful if you either 1) Have a problem, and 2) Know how to use the data.
     
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  9. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Right. But your statement is not always true. And I think it is more often wrong than right for the reasons I gave. It certainly may be why they chose a lower concentration, but that doesn't make it correct. That said, a lower concentration is also fine if folks want to use it for any of several reasons. More valid reasons, IMO, may have to do with less potential for local precipitation of calcium carbonate when the alk part hits the water. And, of course, having the dose be delivered properly by a dosing pump you already have might be optimiized by a particular concentration that may be more dilute than normal.

    I've seen them too. And that is exactly what I think may be causing more angst and wasted money and effort in the reef community than it is worth. If you look close enough, any real water sample will have most ions in it. So how much is too much? How much silicate in RO/DI is too much? Phosphate? Is 0.05 pm phosphate in your RO/DI top off too much? Many would immediately think yes, when in reality it is a trivial contribution to the tank phosphate cycle. FOr silicate, there may be no reasonable amount that is too much unless you have a diatom "problem".

    IMO, there is no useful guidance being given in some of the RO water reports, and folks often leap to very incorrect conclusions about what those values mean.
     
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  10. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    The reason for the dilution is what ATI claims. Their goal is during doser failure, your tank wont nuke. That's what they've said about why their dilution is weak. As for me, I have a small tank, when I was running ME Corals 2 part, 1ml overdosed would make a testable difference, over the course of a few days would make a significant spike. That's what I was getting at with the dilution.

    As for silicates, I've read it's one of the many things with the potential to turn corals green (aside from iron). That could be old reefer tales though, as I've never seen anything scientific proving or disproving it.
     
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  11. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Does not seem to be true as far as I have seen when people report "high silicate".

    For examaple

    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/high-si-levels.317519/

    Lasse has 7,000+ ug/L Si and says

    "
    I can´t see any problems at the moment - the corals and all other organism in the aquarium looks good - thats more important for me compared with the importance of just a figure.

    But such high values I never ever have Heard about."

    His tank:

    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lasses-dream-build.246188/page-35#post-4268211
     
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  12. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Fair enough! I personally run 40 no3 and 0.80 po4 and have pretty solid colors, yet of course were all told po4 causes coral death, retards growth, and everything should be gray and dead. It's extremely hard to wade through the misinformation in this hobby without first hand experience, which is then typically boiled down to just being anecdotal anyways -- especially if it grates against the hive mind.
     
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  13. GoVols

    GoVols VFL R2R Supporter MTRCMember R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Rakie,

    Your reef and corals are awesome. Thanks for coming in here and trying to help OP for what you and others have seen when starting off with the ATI E's. You guys have seen it and I believe it.

    I also love Randy and just don't wont things to turn real ugly in here with hurt feelings.

    Freddie
     
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  14. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Thanks, Freddie. :)
     
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  15. drawman

    drawman Valuable Member

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    Agreed I think you're both providing great info and viewpoints to the OP. If anything, ATI Essentials and ICP testing should be fun and icing on the cake to good standard SPS and reefkeeping practices :)
     
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  16. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Member

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    Haha, I think I'm going to assume it's based on the more concentrated formula. That seems to be the more standard setup.
     
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  17. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Haha, no ones got hurt feelings freddy, I didn't mean it like that!

    What i'm saying is in this hobby, you don't know it until you try it/deal with it. As an example I used nutrients -- I had been lead to believe for years that nutrients were the devil, after raising them and seeing good results I can now say, in my experience, that info was bad. My point was, it's impossible to know what information is truly good or bad until you've had first hand experience. In essence, I was agreeing with @Randy Holmes-Farley about the Silicates, because I have no first hand experience, just conjecture from old reefers.

    That's what's really hard in this hobby. We rely on purely anecdotal information, some of which may be misidentified cause/effect from other unknown things going on with water chemistry. That's what makes it so hard, and that's why what works for some won't work for others.

    When writing I often allude to things and ask rhetorical questions -- it doesn't always come out correctly in text format though!
     
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  18. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Member

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    Got a solid answer from them on Facebook. The suggested dosage is based off the stronger 9 to 1 mixture. For smaller batches, lets use a 5lr example, simply add 500ml of concentrate, then add enough water to get to 5lr. 400ml, for 4lr, 300ml, for 3lr, etc.

    I got too clever for my own good and figured it up using proportions and algebra based on how much concentrate to add to a measured volume of water. This makes for a lot more work in math and measuring. I was working harder instead of smarter. I double checked the math using their method, and it is indeed the exact same ratio.

    25395910_10100406785495905_2599250868935853150_n.jpg
     
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  19. Finhead

    Finhead Active Member

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    @Rakie currious how often and what % water changes you do. I started the ATI essentials 2 months ago since that was the earilest I could get it in Canada, haven't done a WC yet though.
     
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  20. jrp1588

    jrp1588 Member

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    Got some food grade buckets today. Making up a batch of RO/DI. Time to get the party started.
     
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