ATI Essentials dosing recommendations

[Finhead]

Thanks. I think I'll ask them if the product is primarily bicarbonate (no pH boost)or carbonate (with pH boost) or a mix.

From what I've seen setting it up seems to be the former with no PH boost. I calculated too much at first and had to redo my dosing, PH didn't move as far as I could see. My tank runs very low PH so it's easy to see spike, it runs form 7.8-8.0.

 

[jrp1588]

I kind of prefer it this way. When the weather is nice and I open my windows, the quick spikes associated with the alk dosing would occasionally trigger my Neptune to turn off my doser. I ended up turning off the pH control since it happened so often. I guess I can turn that back on now.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Just tagging along, interesting read so far

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ATI said its mostly bicarbonate, so that is why the pH spike is much lower (as Finhead notes), and perhaps also why is is more diluted (since bicarbonate is much less soluble than carbonate in an alkalinity additive) compared to other two part systems.

 

[jrp1588]

Ahh, so fancy baking soda. haha. I get the impression that #2 and #3 contain all the trace elements, and that #1 is just alk. I think the bottles can be bought separately, I wonder if I could save some money and and buy a cheaper alk supplement. Check out page 4 of the user manual. It tells what's in each bottle. Doing a little math, for around the same price, I could use the BRS stuff and make ~15lr at BRS's recommended strength. Or I could cut the strength in half, which almost perfectly matches the ATI strength, and make ~30lr.

http://atiaquaristik.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2089/03/User-manual-ATI-Essentials-v2.3_eng.pdf

 

[ATI North America]

It's almost *always* water. One way or another. Water should be the first thing you look into, from every point of view possible.

This is so true. I have been in the business of selling aquarium lighting as the primary focus of my job and people often jump to blame lighting when usually chemistry or flow is the issue.

Right. But your statement is not always true. And I think it is more often wrong than right for the reasons I gave. It certainly may be why they chose a lower concentration, but that doesn't make it correct. That said, a lower concentration is also fine if folks want to use it for any of several reasons. More valid reasons, IMO, may have to do with less potential for local precipitation of calcium carbonate when the alk part hits the water. And, of course, having the dose be delivered properly by a dosing pump you already have might be optimiized by a particular concentration that may be more dilute than normal.



I've seen them too. And that is exactly what I think may be causing more angst and wasted money and effort in the reef community than it is worth. If you look close enough, any real water sample will have most ions in it. So how much is too much? How much silicate in RO/DI is too much? Phosphate? Is 0.05 pm phosphate in your RO/DI top off too much? Many would immediately think yes, when in reality it is a trivial contribution to the tank phosphate cycle. FOr silicate, there may be no reasonable amount that is too much unless you have a diatom "problem".

IMO, there is no useful guidance being given in some of the RO water reports, and folks often leap to very incorrect conclusions about what those values mean.

Randy am I incorrect as a hypothetical fake number example:

Dosing 10min = 500ml = .1 dKH
If for example the unit runs an extra 10 seconds or extra 10ml, its barely a blip on your dKH
BUT
Dosing 1m = 50ml = .1dKH (strong concentration)
If your dosing pump runs an extra 10 seconds or extra 10ml, that's going to be significant change in your dKH

Isn't it safe to assume a small % deviation from tube stretching for example is going to have less net effect if the solution is more dilute?

Regarding RODI Testing, I know we disagree on this, but I for example discovered my RODI had 33,249 µg/l silicon. An INSANE number. How harmful has it been? Well the tank has been just fine, but I do have enough diatoms to run a magnet every other day. Perhaps this is a nutrient export since it then gets skimmed out after running the magnet? Needless to say I refreshed and doubled my DI.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ahh, so fancy baking soda. haha. I get the impression that #2 and #3 contain all the trace elements, and that #1 is just alk. I think the bottles can be bought separately, I wonder if I could save some money and and buy a cheaper alk supplement. Check out page 4 of the user manual. It tells what's in each bottle. Doing a little math, for around the same price, I could use the BRS stuff and make ~15lr at BRS's recommended strength. Or I could cut the strength in half, which almost perfectly matches the ATI strength, and make ~30lr.

http://atiaquaristik.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2089/03/User-manual-ATI-Essentials-v2.3_eng.pdf

I'm not suggesting it doesn't contain all sorts of stuff. But the main alk supplement can only be bicarbonate (no pH boost, actually a little drop) carbonate (a pH boost) or hydroxide (a double pH boost). They said bicarbonate and some carbonate, which is also what it takes to have no pH effect.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is so true. I have been in the business of selling aquarium lighting as the primary focus of my job and people often jump to blame lighting when usually chemistry or flow is the issue.



Randy am I incorrect as a hypothetical fake number example:

Dosing 10min = 500ml = .1 dKH
If for example the unit runs an extra 10 seconds or extra 10ml, its barely a blip on your dKH
BUT
Dosing 1m = 50ml = .1dKH (strong concentration)
If your dosing pump runs an extra 10 seconds or extra 10ml, that's going to be significant change in your dKH

Isn't it safe to assume a small % deviation from tube stretching for example is going to have less net effect if the solution is more dilute?
.

My only point had to do with claims in this thread that this related to:

"As doser heads get worn out, need to be lubed up, need replacement parts, they become less accurate. "

Which does not cause a doser to run an extra ten seconds, but to deliver a fixed over or under dose, which won't be mitigated by more or less dilution.

Regarding RODI Testing, I know we disagree on this, but I for example discovered my RODI had 33,249 µg/l silicon. An INSANE number. .

Yes, and TDS testing would likely have shown a problem too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On the flip side of the "benefit" of testing RO/DI, you scared this person with very low phosphate into worrying:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/high-phosphorous-in-rodi.344741/

So my contention is that without guidance, this reporting of values is not a net benefit for people, but causes a lot of angst over potentially nothing significant.

 

[ATI North America]

My only point had to do with claims in this thread that this related to:

"As doser heads get worn out, need to be lubed up, need replacement parts, they become less accurate. "

Which does not cause a doser to run an extra ten seconds, but to deliver a fixed over or under dose, which won't be mitigated by more or less dilution.

I completely agree Randy that it isn't going to make it run extra 10 seconds, but it is very likely to add more or less solution which is why ATI recommends monthly calibration. You are suggesting it is a linear % difference, but I am suggesting its a -/+ resolution problem. If some times it doses 95ml and other times 105ml this will have a greater effect on the aquarium when concentrations are higher. IE 95/105ml vs 995/1005ml

 

[ATI North America]

On the flip side of the "benefit" of testing RO/DI, you scared this person with very low phosphate into worrying:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/high-phosphorous-in-rodi.344741/

So my contention is that without guidance, this reporting of values is not a net benefit for people, but causes a lot of angst over potentially nothing significant.

Isn't he now more wise and educated?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I completely agree Randy that it isn't going to make it run extra 10 seconds, but it is very likely to add more or less solution which is why ATI recommends monthly calibration. You are suggesting it is a linear % difference, but I am suggesting its a -/+ resolution problem. If some times it doses 95ml and other times 105ml this will have a greater effect on the aquarium when concentrations are higher. IE 95/105ml vs 995/1005ml

Do you have any evidence that dosing pumps vary that way? The article I posted suggested that was not the sort of problem, but rather actual drift.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't want folks to misunderstand. There's nothing wrong with dosing a diluted solution, even spreading it out to dosing slowly and continuously over 24 h or some other time frame to match demand.

I dosed limewater 24/7 via ATO.

I'm just not sure that dosing pump variability is the best reason to do it.

 

[truepercs]

I was curious after seeing the previous graph. I start dosing on the 16th. The dose schedule before ATI. I was dosing 12 per day, as mentioned I went to a 24 doses transitioning to ATI. So you can see how PH was affected before and after...

I have not really payed much attention to PH... Just thought to check it out after it was mentioned.

 

[jrp1588]

I don't really worry much about pH, but it is my favorite chart to look at. I think it's really cool that I can see my chart reacting to opening a window or having an extra friend over putting out more co2.

I always joke with my fiance that she better not have any men over while I'm at work, because my fish tank will tell on her. Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I always joke with my fiance that she better not have any men over while I'm at work, because my fish tank will tell on her. Lol

lol

I never though of that.

 

[truepercs]

When I dosed with the 2 part, I did not calibrate very often. If I seen a trend one way or the other I would just increase or decrease the dosage slightly. Even the folks that make the doser suggests calibrating once a month. I was thinking that calibration on a monthly basis would be needed now that there is three parts. Lucky for me the doser software is improved whereas calibration is much easier. I did ask ATI if part 2 and 3 could be combined and just double the dose... unfortunately it was mentioned that you must keep 2 & 3 separate.

 

[jrp1588]

lol

I never though of that.

They should put that in the ads as a selling point.

 

[GoVols]

They should put that in the ads as a selling point.

Lol,
When @prsnlty 's husband comes back home from making a long trucking run. She can always tell that he's there from watching the ph on her Apex Fusion

She's the best and has the funniest build thread at times

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lol,
When @prsnlty 's husband comes back home from making a long trucking run. She can always tell that he's there from watching the ph on her Apex Fusion

She's the best and has the funniest build thread at times

Or that the heavy breathing was just her doing a workout.