Ca and Alk in the same supplement? How does this work?

[Larry L]

So Tropic Marin has announced a combined calcium and carbonate supplement:

https://reefbuilders.com/2018/05/14...-marin-redefines-the-meaning-of-concentrated/

How does this work? I thought if you mixed them they'd just precipitate out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are a bunch of products like this. Most (like Salifert All in One) are Calcium acetate, and the acetate, when metabolized, produces the alkalinity (see below).

The Tropic Marin product is probably calcium formate (which is very like acetate (CH3CO2-) but a little smaller of an organic molecule (CHCO2-)).

I discuss calcium acetate here:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar. When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate will also facilitate the growth of bacteria and the reduction of nutrients in systems, similar to that with folks dosing vinegar or vodka for that purpose. It will also facilitate conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2) in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process. The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O

One of the sources of calcium acetate available to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This product sells in the US for about $45/L. Consequently, it costs about $14 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for an aquarium with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero equipment cost (unless you automate it with a dosing pump) makes it attractive for small aquaria, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.

 

[RobZilla04]

Assuming there is an additive preventing such here. Also skeptical based on the likelihood that nearly every reefer started out dosing unequal amounts for at least some period of time. I know I did.

Will be interesting to get more opinions and some real world feedback.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, the awe expressed in the Reef Builders "review" is, to put it bluntly, not very informed about similar technologies.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Assuming there is an additive preventing such here. Also skeptical based on the likelihood that nearly every reefer started out dosing unequal amounts for at least some period of time. I know I did.

Will be interesting to get more opinions and some real world feedback.

It's simple and well understood.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, we have discussed this before, including here where I speculated to Lou Ekus of Tropic Marin what I thought it was. He didnt' respond but "liked" my post.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/two-part-suggestions.336300/#post-4193658

 

[RobZilla04]

It's simple and well understood.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, it is this comment from their web site:

http://www.tropic-marin.com/minerals/carbocalcium/?lang=en

" there is no excess CO2"

That, if they use the term correctly, precludes the counterion from being acetate or anything larger due to CO2 produced:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

but it could be formate and I can't think of anything else it could be:

HCO2– (formate) + 1/2 O2 → HCO3–

 

[jantje]

very interresting.

if it is formate and there would be no other complaints like co2 or other by products then it would be an outstanding replacement for balling or not ?
depending on the price if you have a larger tank

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

very interresting.

if it is formate and there would be no other complaints like co2 or other by products then it would be an outstanding replacement for balling or not ?
depending on the price if you have a larger tank

Like calcium acetate, it is a potential replacement for any type of calcium and alk addition method, but it has potential drawbacks:

1. Like limewater/kalkwasser, it will slowly raise alk relative to calcium. The fixed ratio means you need another product if any corrections are needed.

2. Since it is a form of organic carbon dosing, it will drive bacterial growth and may reduce nutrients lower than you want.

3. It does not supply magnesium that is also consumed during calcification.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hi,
I am the product manager of Tropic Marin. Randy and some other forum members already know me.

but it could be formate and I can't think of anything else it could be:

HCO2– (formate) + 1/2 O2 → HCO3–

Yes, calcium formate is correct.

1. Like limewater/kalkwasser, it will slowly raise alk relative to calcium. The fixed ratio means you need another product if any corrections are needed.

Yes, also correct, if there are imbalances you need calcium chloride or for example sodium bicarbonate for corrections. We have noticed no delay between elevation of calcium and alkalinity.

2. Since it is a form of organic carbon dosing, it will drive bacterial growth and may reduce nutrients lower than you want.

As we can see in Randy's equation above the O2 consumption is lower than with other organic calcium salts, in his example 1/4 compared to acetate. Accordingly bacterial growth and nutrient reduction is also lower than with other organic calcium salts. We have noticed no significant difference to the Balling method in our tanks.

3. It does not supply magnesium that is also consumed during calcification.

That is also correct, for magnesium supply according to demand you can use commercial or home made magnesium additives. We also offer another product based on calcium formate that already includes magnesium, strontium and the essential trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Hans Werner. [emoji3]

 

[jantje]

Werner, vielen dank. Randy thank you.
it sounds to me very interesting, even the mentioned "kind of form of organic Carbon dosing"...as i dose a very little nopox.
So maybe no need to dose that when using the TM CaFormate.
Now it is only a question of calculating price and how much i need.

for Werner, danke fuer die gute producte van TM, fuer mich ist TM dass nummer 1 salz und daher glaube ich auch dass alle andere producten denselben quality standard haben.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Vielen Dank für das positive Feedback und dein Vertrauen, Jantje!

 

[Thiago Caires]

Can I add Tropic Marin Bio-Magnesium together with carbo-calcium in the same bottle?

 

[Thiago Caires]

Can I add Tropic Marin Bio-Magnesium together with carbo-calcium in the same bottle?

 

[Thiago Caires]

Can I add Tropic Marin Bio-Magnesium together with carbo-calcium in the same bottle?

 

[Thiago Caires]

Can I add Tropic Marin Bio-Magnesium in the bottle of the carbo-calcium?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yes, it is possible. We suggest the addition of 12 g of Bio-Magnesium per liter of Carbo-Calcium solution.

 

[Reefr]

Yes, it is possible. We suggest the addition of 12 g of Bio-Magnesium per liter of Carbo-Calcium solution.

Dear Hans-Werner, I suppose it is also possible to mix the powder versions of Bio-Mg and Carbo-Calcium in order to prepare a solution for a dosing pump? Can you please confirm how many g of Bio-Mg should be added to let's say 100 g of Carbo-Calcium? Also, how do you calculate the 12 g you just mentioned? Is this based on typical consumption of Mg vs Ca in a reef tank? thanks for your help!

 

[Hans-Werner]

You can take 140 g of Carbocalcium Powder fill it up with R/O water to 800 ml and dissolve as much as can be dissolved. Then add 100 ml of each, A- and K+ Elements, and dissolve the remaining Carbocalcium Powder completely. At last add 12 g of Bio-Magnesium and dissolve it. This solution comes closest to our All-For-Reef and will add all major, minor and trace elements necessary for good coral growth.
Of course you can also premix 140 g of Carbocalcium Powder and 12 g of Bio-Magnesium.
The 12 g is an empiric quantity. We added more Bio-Magnesium at first and noticed increasing magnesium concentrations in the tanks. So we reduced the magnesium concentration. However magnesium consumption may vary for example with coralline algal growth.

 

[Reefr]

You can take 140 g of Carbocalcium Powder fill it up with R/O water to 800 ml and dissolve as much as can be dissolved. Then add 100 ml of each, A- and K+ Elements, and dissolve the remaining Carbocalcium Powder completely. At last add 12 g of Bio-Magnesium and dissolve it. This solution comes closest to our All-For-Reef and will add all major, minor and trace elements necessary for good coral growth.
Of course you can also premix 140 g of Carbocalcium Powder and 12 g of Bio-Magnesium.
The 12 g is an empiric quantity. We added more Bio-Magnesium at first and noticed increasing magnesium concentrations in the tanks. So we reduced the magnesium concentration. However magnesium consumption may vary for example with coralline algal growth.

Thank you very much for your clear answer @Hans-Werner