Carbon dosage tuning question

[xTJxSLIMx]

Hello, and thank you all for taking a look. Love this forum and the knowledgeable people, I read daily in here! Randy is a genius and legend.
Ok so...
40gal worth of water volume in system. I use spectrapure rodi, replaced all filters 4 mo. ago.
Yes, I'm using api tests for n03 and p04.
I can't decide between redsea algae control test kit vs salifert 2pc kit. I already have redsea titrate for alk, cal, and mag and have no complaint other than the syringe markings rubbing off.

I have been using diy nopox formula (500 mls Vinegar, 375 mls Vodka (40%) and 125 mls of RO/DI water.) for 3 months. Had a hard time with phosphates rising (1ppm to 2ppm within a week) at zero nitrate. (Redfield) Lowered dosage to 3ml nopox a day, lowered feeding and started gfo reactor. Bought flourish nitrogen to dose nitrate if it continued to stay at zero but never did dose. Got phos down to .25ppm and was seeing white slime, went down to 1ml nopox and took gfo offline. Now over the past two weeks it has been @ .25 phos and nitrate stuck at 10ppm. Last week white slime went away. Tested today and nitrates are 20ppm.

I do not completely comprehend the redfield ratio because of the different ways explained in "mole"? and ppm I kinda get lost.
106 carbon to 16n03 1p04

So if it is ppm do I need a full ppm of p04 to reduce 16 n03? Or will it eat up my p04 down to zero and leave me with n03 to rise?
If this is the case should I dose p04? Does overfeeding really raise p04? Doesn't make sense that it would efficiently raise p04 since starting a new tank with ghost feeding produces the ammonia needed to start.
What should I be doing next? Other than water change. (Trying to avoid)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ignore the redfield ratio.
That the uptake is a single specific algae.

If the Po4 is actually.25 I’d Put the gfo back online.
I’d start dosing a smaller amount of nopox if the no3 is climbing.


Double check and odd ball readings If you can.

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

Phosphate looks like .25 to the eye, but in the camera is much darker like 1.0

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

More nitrate readings prior.

 

[Dan_P]

Hello, and thank you all for taking a look. Love this forum and the knowledgeable people, I read daily in here! Randy is a genius and legend.
Ok so...
40gal worth of water volume in system. I use spectrapure rodi, replaced all filters 4 mo. ago.
Yes, I'm using api tests for n03 and p04.
I can't decide between redsea algae control test kit vs salifert 2pc kit. I already have redsea titrate for alk, cal, and mag and have no complaint other than the syringe markings rubbing off

Salifert phosphate and nitrate tests are good tests, are more sensitive than API and both easy to use. Buy these and give yourself time to decide on which test kit is your optimum choice later. You might want to consider a Hanna Checker for phosphate.

I have been using diy nopox formula (500 mls Vinegar, 375 mls Vodka (40%) and 125 mls of RO/DI water.) for 3 months. Had a hard time with phosphates rising (1ppm to 2ppm within a week) at zero nitrate. (Redfield) Lowered dosage to 3ml nopox a day, lowered feeding and started gfo reactor. Bought flourish nitrogen to dose nitrate if it continued to stay at zero but never did dose. Got phos down to .25ppm and was seeing white slime, went down to 1ml nopox and took gfo offline. Now over the past two weeks it has been @ .25 phos and nitrate stuck at 10ppm. Last week white slime went away. Tested today and nitrates are 20ppm

Deal with PO4 with GFO not carbon dosing. Also, you might need to up your NOPOX dose to deal with the nitrate. Carbon dosing is marginally useful for controlling phosphate.

I do not completely comprehend the redfield ratio because of the different ways explained in "mole"? and ppm I kinda get lost.
106 carbon to 16n03 1p04

The use of the Redfield ratio of elements for developing strategies for nitrate and phosphate control in an aquarium is simply wrong.

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

Ignore the redfield ratio.
That the uptake is a single specific algae.

The use of the Redfield ratio of elements for developing strategies for nitrate and phosphate control in an aquarium is simply wrong.

Mind blown... There are so many articles, videos, specifically this video posted on reef2reef by mark that talks about the redfield ratio.

I understand that carbon dosing does not remove as much phosphate as it does nitrate. I was just asking if having phosphate at or below 1ppm being a limiting factor for it to work. (Will it stop removing nitrate at zero, or below 1ppm phosphate?)

I would run gfo but scared to drop to absolute zero p04 and n03 to open the door for dino's.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Mind blown... There are so many articles, videos, specifically this video posted on reef2reef by mark that talks about the redfield ratio.

I understand that carbon dosing does not remove as much phosphate as it does nitrate. I was just asking if having phosphate at or below 1ppm being a limiting factor for it to work. (Will it stop removing nitrate at zero, or below 1ppm phosphate?)

I would run gfo but scared to drop to absolute zero p04 and n03 to open the door for dino's.

Yea with those numbers I don’t know why you’re trying to drive honestly.

Yea. The ratio is a constant conspiracy theory in Reefing.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea what’s up with that video.
http://192.231.113.152/reprints/files/klausmeier et al 2004a.pdf


https://www.nature.com/collections/fncspbsnmk

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

Per redsea nopox:

 

[cooltowncorals]

having been dosing three months you should be able to control phospahtes with carbon dosing. Ignoring the ratio for a minute just understand this the bacteria feeds off of a combination of carbon, nitrate, and phosphate most systems are carbon limited which means that carbon is for arguments sake at 0ppm and then when you add it the bacteria uses it and nitrate and phosphates to reproduce. You usually don’t see phosphates lowering for the first 6 weeks according to Red Sea and others but see nitrates start to lower quickly. The problem that can occur is if either nitrates (in your case) or phosphates get to 0 then the other two items in the system will not deplete. So in your case you continued to build up phosphates and created a bacteria slime from the sounds of it with the extra carbon. Your thought process was right in getting a nitrate to dose google it lots of options for this but start by dosing like 1-2ppm of nitrate per day with carbon and your phosphates will fall. When you find your equilibrium and get both to where you want them youll be good to go. You will need quality test kits though and Salifert nitrate test is really easy to read and phosphate test is pretty good as well. I switched to ulr Hanna which I like better. But i liked the salifert over the Red Sea for those tests liked the Red Sea calcium mag all better than saliferts

 

[cooltowncorals]

+1 to pull the GFO not needed will cause issues

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

It’ll cause issues of you don’t test.

Get off the api before proceeding.

 

[JohnMzreef]

Get more coral and change your water more frequently - pretty soon you will be more worried about nutrient import than export.

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

having been dosing three months you should be able to control phospahtes with carbon dosing. Ignoring the ratio for a minute just understand this the bacteria feeds off of a combination of carbon, nitrate, and phosphate most systems are carbon limited which means that carbon is for arguments sake at 0ppm and then when you add it the bacteria uses it and nitrate and phosphates to reproduce. You usually don’t see phosphates lowering for the first 6 weeks according to Red Sea and others but see nitrates start to lower quickly. The problem that can occur is if either nitrates (in your case) or phosphates get to 0 then the other two items in the system will not deplete. So in your case you continued to build up phosphates and created a bacteria slime from the sounds of it with the extra carbon. Your thought process was right in getting a nitrate to dose google it lots of options for this but start by dosing like 1-2ppm of nitrate per day with carbon and your phosphates will fall. When you find your equilibrium and get both to where you want them youll be good to go. You will need quality test kits though and Salifert nitrate test is really easy to read and phosphate test is pretty good as well. I switched to ulr Hanna which I like better. But i liked the salifert over the Red Sea for those tests liked the Red Sea calcium mag all better than saliferts

Ok, awesome. You use hanna phosphate (ppm) or the phosphorus (ppb)?

Yes, looks like quality low range tests are needed for carbon dosing. Otherwise your looking at a mess of white bacteria or cyano... ;Yuck

I think I understand what happen. I got scared when the white bacteria started showing up, (nitrates still at 10 and still showing .25 phosphates) so I dropped my carbon down to 1ppm. A week or so later I'm seeing nitrates rise.(today) I'm gonna check my phosphate test on some Rodi... I may have been p04 limited.

I knew there was a constant debate amongst different styles of reef keeping and differing opinions and methods but why do I happen to stumble on polar opposites each time I am trying to figure out specifics. ;Dead
I just got my gfo reactor out of the storage room. I'll let it sit by the tank here and do a little more reading...

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

Found a good article.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-raise-phosphate-up.384948/

Upping my nopox dose to 3ml/day and ordering some "seachem flourish phosphate" and test kits. Going to play with the nopox, flourish nitrogen, and flourish phosphate until I get closer to desired levels. Yeah, don't chase numbers I know...

 

[zoasaholic]

White slime that mean you overdose
Check inside your overflow for slime build up
Decrease your dosage

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that the Redfield ratio is not very useful for reefers and is often misapplied. IMO, a particular ratio is not s useful goal, and nutrients are often not consumed in a ratio anywhere close to the Redfield ratio due to many processes in our tanks that use or add N and not P or the opposite.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

+1 to pull the GFO not needed will cause issues

What issues? When used appropriately (I.e., not lowering phosphate too far), I’m not aware of any issues and think it a good way to control phosphate if it is elevated (as it often is with organic carbon dosing).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

having been dosing three months you should be able to control phospahtes with carbon dosing. Ignoring the ratio for a minute just understand this the bacteria feeds off of a combination of carbon, nitrate, and phosphate most systems are carbon limited which means that carbon is for arguments sake at 0ppm and then when you add it the bacteria uses it and nitrate and phosphates to reproduce. You usually don’t see phosphates lowering for the first 6 weeks according to Red Sea and others but see nitrates start to lower quickly. The problem that can occur is if either nitrates (in your case) or phosphates get to 0 then the other two items in the system will not deplete. So in your case you continued to build up phosphates and created a bacteria slime from the sounds of it with the extra carbon. Your thought process was right in getting a nitrate to dose google it lots of options for this but start by dosing like 1-2ppm of nitrate per day with carbon and your phosphates will fall. When you find your equilibrium and get both to where you want them youll be good to go. You will need quality test kits though and Salifert nitrate test is really easy to read and phosphate test is pretty good as well. I switched to ulr Hanna which I like better. But i liked the salifert over the Red Sea for those tests liked the Red Sea calcium mag all better than saliferts

I don’t agree. Carbon dosing often leaves residual phosphate when used to control nitrate because it can consume more N than P due to denitrification.

I used the combo of organic dosing and GFO (and macroalgae) for years and think it a good combo.

 

[xTJxSLIMx]

What issues? When used appropriately (I.e., not lowering phosphate too far), I’m not aware of any issues and think it a good way to control phosphate if it is elevated (as it often is with organic carbon dosing).

Redsea nopox instructions doesn't notate specifically why but they caution against any other method of nutrient export during use of nopox.

A video I watched some time ago stated that use of some "p04/n03 binders" (I believe) are intensified/ more potent when used in conjunction with nopox.

Thank you for your input Randy, and everyone here. I am going to depend on water changes for the time being until I get my salifert kits in the mail. If I am showing elevated phosphates through the salifert, I will throw a low starting amount of gfo in the reactor.

Merry Christmas everyone!