Running High Nitrates But Zero Phosphate

[Lasse]

It is nitrogen oxides from combustion processes and manure. I have no estimates how much it could be, but it is enough to fertilize low nutrient soils and for threatening certain plants.

I forget the NOx part - my bad. @Fish Fan - where do you live - how is the air quality?

get like 18 ppm nitrate, and then in a few short days it's way up again, like 50 ppm. So I do believe the Checker is working well.

The reason why I want you to analyse NO2 is because it could affect the NO3 readings. You use Hanna high NO3 and I know of own experiences that is a rather good meter and not as affected by NO2 as other methods. The way you describe it - from 18 to 50 mg/L in a couple of day strongly indicate an addition of a separate N source.

From the air is one but if your salt content ammino acids and I think that this is the answer. Let us back calculate NO3 did rise with 32 mg/L NO3 - it correspond to 7,9 mg/L NO3-N. It means that - calculated on the whole tank - theoretical 90 L water - let us assume that the real water volume is around 75 L- It means that the rise with 7.9 mg/L correspond to around 600 mg NO3-N or N. If all of this has been ammino acid-N from the beginning - it correspond also to around 600 mg ammino acid - N. I calculate the average N content of the 20 most common ammino acids and it is around 15%. It means that if the water you use for WC contained around 4 g ammino acids - you will have your answer here, I would suggest - use a salt without ammino acids - if you still get a fast rise - the N must come from the air IMO. I do not believe in decaying organics because in that case - you should read PO4 too. I late evening here so please forgive me if I have done some miscalculation.

As Randy states - you will not see any NO3-N from ammino acids until after 2-3 days - therefore - testing directly will not give the right answer. Maybe an total ammonia test could work.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[i cant think]

Nitrifiers make nitrate. How would more surface area for them help?

How do bacteria add phosphate?

Honestly I have no idea how it works that in depth, it just works for me, even in a fishless tank.
My best guess? It allows room for other bacteria to occur in the tank, a region where nitrifying bacteria can’t colonise. Other bacteria and life can get on and there’s your nitrate reducers.
Bacteria and pretty much anything living can add Phosphates, not always the way we expect but when they compete and die out phosphates can get released.

 

[Fish Fan]

I forget the NOx part - my bad. @Fish Fan - where do you live - how is the air quality?

The reason why I want you to analyse NO2 is because it could affect the NO3 readings. You use Hanna high NO3 and I know of own experiences that is a rather good meter and not as affected by NO2 as other methods. The way you describe it - from 18 to 50 mg/L in a couple of day strongly indicate an addition of a separate N source.

From the air is one but if your salt content ammino acids and I think that this is the answer. Let us back calculate NO3 did rise with 32 mg/L NO3 - it correspond to 7,9 mg/L NO3-N. It means that - calculated on the whole tank - theoretical 90 L water - let us assume that the real water volume is around 75 L- It means that the rise with 7.9 mg/L correspond to around 600 mg NO3-N or N. If all of this has been ammino acid-N from the beginning - it correspond also to around 600 mg ammino acid - N. I calculate the average N content of the 20 most common ammino acids and it is around 15%. It means that if the water you use for WC contained around 4 g ammino acids - you will have your answer here, I would suggest - use a salt without ammino acids - if you still get a fast rise - the N must come from the air IMO. I do not believe in decaying organics because in that case - you should read PO4 too. I late evening here so please forgive me if I have done some miscalculation.

As Randy states - you will not see any NO3-N from ammino acids until after 2-3 days - therefore - testing directly will not give the right answer. Maybe an total ammonia test could work.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, this was an excellent reply, thank you again for your help here, I really think you're on to something!

 

[Fish Fan]

Alright, the plot thickens lol!

I had a chance to test some water this afternoon, and much to my surprise, here's what I got for the tank. All tests were done with a Hanna Checker and non-expired reagents. Keep in mind, I did a large (like 80%) water change just yesterday evening:

Ammonia: 0.31 ppm
Nitrite: 0.066 ppm
Nitrate: 32.3 ppm (was 50 ppm yesterday before water change)
Phosphate: 0.0 ppB even after adding Reef Roids yesterday

I then tested the water in my mixing bucket, and wouldn't you know it, ammonia was 0.34 ppm in saltwater made last night.

I then tested my RODI water using NT Labs ammonia dropper test, and it came back as zero, though I'm not sure if it can be trusted for use with RODI water, if that makes a difference or not.

So what do you guys think? It's looking to me like it's my salt mix after all, likely the added amino acids, and I'm bummed because I'm sitting on two and a half boxes of AquaForrest Reef Salt lol! I thought AquaForrest was a solid choice, in the past I have always used IO or Reef Crystals, but I never liked the residue in the mixing bucket. AquaForrest was mixing much cleaner. I'm also not quite getting the stated Alk from my freshly mixed AquaForrest, so I guess it's back to IO!

 

[Troylee]

The corals look good in your original post… so the question is why are you trying to bring them down anyways? My little cube before my current display had nitrates over 100 it wouldn’t even read on a test but corals grew fine lol. lasse is right if there’s any traces of nitrite then you’ll get false n03 readings. I honestly only test mine to see if they’re bottoming out cause I got Dino’s awhile back.. I still only test every couple weeks as it’s not issue for me if the corals look good!

 

[Fish Fan]

The corals look good in your original post… so the question is why are you trying to bring them down anyways? My little cube before my current display had nitrates over 100 it wouldn’t even read on a test but corals grew fine lol. lasse is right if there’s any traces of nitrite then you’ll get false n03 readings. I honestly only test mine to see if they’re bottoming out cause I got Dino’s awhile back.. I still only test every couple weeks as it’s not issue for me if the corals look good!

Yes, I'm aware of, but completely didn't think about how nitrites present will cause an artificial high for nitrates.

The high nitrates are not of themselves a concern, all my systems have typically always run high, but I am quite concerned with the zero phosphate.

Thanks brother!

 

[tbrown]

In my opinion, 50 nitrates isn't super high. If you want to use the salt, use it. Keep in mind you can skim and carbon dose plus add macro algae to help reduce nitrates if you want to use it and keep nutes lower.

As far as using Reef Roids for Phosphates, it's unlikely to do much until your sand and rock are Phosphate bound. Until then, I'd say Loudwolf (or another food grade Phosphate) or NeoPhos (or similar) is your best bet for detectable phosphates.

 

[tbrown]

The corals look good in your original post… so the question is why are you trying to bring them down anyways? My little cube before my current display had nitrates over 100 it wouldn’t even read on a test but corals grew fine lol. lasse is right if there’s any traces of nitrite then you’ll get false n03 readings. I honestly only test mine to see if they’re bottoming out cause I got Dino’s awhile back.. I still only test every couple weeks as it’s not issue for me if the corals look good!

 

[tbrown]

I'm currently dosing Ammonium to keep mine from 0. I'm sitting right around 3-5 most days but I'm personally more comfortable up between 25 and 50.

 

[Troylee]

Yes, I'm aware of, but completely didn't think about how nitrites present will cause an artificial high for nitrates.

The high nitrates are not of themselves a concern, all my systems have typically always run high, but I am quite concerned with the zero phosphate.

Thanks brother!

I’d say stop changing water and just dose phosphates! Theres really zero reason to change your water besides trace elements honestly as your fishless.. or unless your not dosing so that would be a plus also. I’d stop changing your water and just dose phosphates till the tank balances out and its stable! Then you can change like 10% a week or what ever with your current salt and it should really rise your n03

 

[Troylee]

I'm currently dosing Ammonium to keep mine from 0. I'm sitting right around 3-5 most days but I'm personally more comfortable up between 25 and 50.

Same! But I use bacto balance so my nutrients stay low. Well I just started again I should say as my doser didn’t work for 6 months and then a light bulb went off in my head that I haven’t refilled my bacto in a long time . It’s back online now. Shows how much I pay attention to my tank . Kidding! I only dose 6ml a day so it lasts for months anyways when I fill it up lol.

 

[Fish Fan]

In my opinion, 50 nitrates isn't super high. If you want to use the salt, use it. Keep in mind you can skim and carbon dose plus add macro algae to help reduce nitrates if you want to use it and keep nutes lower.

As far as using Reef Roids for Phosphates, it's unlikely to do much until your sand and rock are Phosphate bound. Until then, I'd say Loudwolf (or another food grade Phosphate) or NeoPhos (or similar) is your best bet for detectable phosphates.

Agreed, and thanks to an awesome fellow reefer here (you now who you are) I have some of the LoudWolf sodium phosphate on the way Reef Roids I happened to have on hand, so I gave them a try here.

I’d say stop changing water and just dose phosphates! Theres really zero reason to change your water besides trace elements honestly as your fishless.. or unless your not dosing so that would be a plus also. I’d stop changing your water and just dose phosphates till the tank balances out and its stable! Then you can change like 10% a week or what ever with your current salt and it should really rise your n03

Same! But I use bacto balance so my nutrients stay low. Well I just started again I should say as my doser didn’t work for 6 months and then a light bulb went off in my head that I haven’t refilled my bacto in a long time . It’s back online now. Shows how much I pay attention to my tank . Kidding! I only dose 6ml a day so it lasts for months anyways when I fill it up lol.

Agreed about that water changes, and about the phosphate dosing. I am still a little interested in trying the Bacto Balance one this system evens out. You seem to have good luck with it, right?

Thanks again for all the help here guys, you all rock!!

 

[Troylee]

Agreed, and thanks to an awesome fellow reefer here (you now who you are) I have some of the LoudWolf sodium phosphate on the way Reef Roids I happened to have on hand, so I gave them a try here.



Agreed about that water changes, and about the phosphate dosing. I am still a little interested in trying the Bacto Balance one this system evens out. You seem to have good luck with it, right?

Thanks again for all the help here guys, you all rock!!

Bacto works great if you have your numbers where you want them! It won’t reduce them or make them higher, they have different products for that.. both products go hand in hand thou like elimi n&p it’s nitrates and phosphates it’s not gonna reduce just one.

 

[Miami Reef]

Agreed, and thanks to an awesome fellow reefer here (you now who you are) I have some of the LoudWolf sodium phosphate on the way Reef Roids I happened to have on hand, so I gave them a try here.

Yes, thanks to them. They seem very helpful. lol

 

[BriDroid]

Thanks for the shout-out. Really appreciate you thinking of me.
We do have one. But its miniature size makes it particularly sensitive to even minor water parameter fluctuations. Small changes in water quality or just 1-2cm variance in water level can easily cause overflow issues or microbubble leaks, requiring frequent adjustments that some hobbyists find tedious.

That’s what I run in the middle chamber of my 11 cube. The water level in my middle chamber stays the same, so that means it skims fairly consistently. I’ve also added Fish of hex’s recirculating attachment for this skimmer and his co2 scrubber. I’m able to keep my pH 8.2-8.4 finally.

I have the exact opposite problem. I can keep my P around 0.1ppm, but my N runs 0.5ppm or less. I was dosing amino acids, but my algae was getting a little crazy so I stopped.

 

[Miami Reef]

Hans said Bacto reduces nitrate, and I’ve also heard reports from members how Bacto reduces their nitrate.

I never tried it myself (it seems to cause STN in my tank). I wish I could, though.

 

[Fish Fan]

Yes, thanks to them. They seem very helpful. lol

Thank you, @Miami Reef !!

 

[Miami Reef]

Hans said Bacto reduces nitrate, and I’ve also heard reports from members how Bacto reduces their nitrate.

I never tried it myself (it seems to cause STN in my tank). I wish I could, though.

I meant to say I never tried it long term. I’ve tried starting and stopping, taking several month breaks.

I can only get 3 days in before I notice issues.

I really wish I could use it. Some of the best growing tanks use it. Not sure if it’s related, but I wanted to try it.

 

[Fish Fan]

Bacto works great if you have your numbers where you want them! It won’t reduce them or make them higher, they have different products for that.. both products go hand in hand thou like elimi n&p it’s nitrates and phosphates it’s not gonna reduce just one.

Yes, that's what I was thinking, to try the bacto balance once the tank stabilizes. I did see some of their other products that can raise or lower nutrients, and I thought of that here, but I was afraid that if I tried the Elimi NP, I may completely tank my phosphate.

My plan, and certainly I'd welcome feedback here, is to first look towards a different salt mix, and then dose phosphate until it stabilizes, and then try regular carbon dosing and possibly the Bacto Balance product.

The Aquaforrest I wouldn't call expensive per se, but it's not cheap either, and only rarely goes on sale. I'd welcome some salt mix suggestions. I've used Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals for year in the past, and my only complaint is the sludge in the mixing bucket (which I know isn's a concern, but it's kind of gross lol!). I've tried Red Sea once before, but it seems expensive.

A local pet store near me has a salt that's totally new to me, it's supposed to be from Dr. Tim Hovanec:

Only thing is I don't get what they are saying here for levels, are they suggesting that an SPS tank should be at 39 ppt salinity? I run all my tanks at 35 ppt, which I thought was idea for SPS (even though I have mostly always had softies)?

 

[Fish Fan]

That’s what I run in the middle chamber of my 11 cube. The water level in my middle chamber stays the same, so that means it skims fairly consistently. I’ve also added Fish of hex’s recirculating attachment for this skimmer and his co2 scrubber. I’m able to keep my pH 8.2-8.4 finally.

I have the exact opposite problem. I can keep my P around 0.1ppm, but my N runs 0.5ppm or less. I was dosing amino acids, but my algae was getting a little crazy so I stopped.

Thank you for your help here!

I'm officially over the IM NuvoSkim skimmer I have here! This is from just about 24 hours after cleaning it out yesterday, the cup is maybe 1/4 filled with very wet skimmate, yet the foam is overflowing the top even with the lid on. This skimmer is leaking micro bubbles in my tank too.

Do you like that skimmer you have? Is it working well for you?

I'm also open to skimmer suggestions here as I'd like to keep going with some form of carbon dosing on this tank.

Thank you!