Causes for high aluminum

[Miami Reef]

besides who are you to say he's wrong? what are your credentials? where's the evidence backing up your claims? or do these things only apply to Mike?

I never made any claims……

It’s not my job to prove or disprove any of them.

I’m only here because spamming the forum and talking rudely to any member is against TOS.

 

[Mike Sydney]

is that what I said? I don't think it is, but, it does make a great strawman doesn't it!

what I actually challenged was your assertion that he does not sound professional. The thing is, engineers are some of the most professionally argumentative people on earth who are not lawyers and few of us have patience for social niceties once we feel slighted so I'm inclined to say that none of this behavior disqualifies him on a professional level; merely a social one lol

Fabulous, just here for facts, and to give some reefers better advice, I do my socialising elsewhere

 

[Mike Sydney]

I never made any claims……

It’s not my job to prove or disprove any of them.

I’m only here because spamming the forum and talking rudely to any member is against TOS.

I challenge to the information is not spamming, nor is it rude, nor is it against TOS
Are you Randy's Mom?

 

[braaap]

I never made any claims……

It’s not my job to prove or disprove any of them.

I’m only here because spamming the forum and talking rudely to any member is against TOS.

Let’s not worry about TOS. Not everyone needs to be protected by a safety blankie for the sensitive people.

Facts are not concerned with your feelings. And it seems like Mike is spitting facts. I mean I read a couple things he posted and it seems legit. But I’m not a scientist like he is claiming. And I believe Randy is? But I’ve seen lots of questionable stud from Randy and also lots of really good stuff. So it is nice to see him confronted/challenged by someone likely smarter than I.

So far I don’t see anything wrong with his posts. They are very direct and to the point.

 

[Mike Sydney]

I never made any claims……

It’s not my job to prove or disprove any of them.

I’m only here because spamming the forum and talking rudely to any member is against

besides who are you to say he's wrong? what are your credentials? where's the evidence backing up your claims? or do these things only apply to Mike?

They only apply to pesky people that challenge misinformation using facts and data
They then get gaslighted

 

[commod0re]

Well if he sounds like the engineers your dad worked with, then whatever he says must be true…
...
I’m only here because spamming the forum and talking rudely to any member is against TOS.

and putting words in other peoples mouths to attack them over the first thing they say in a thread isn't rude? I'm still dumbfounded as to why you're picking a fight with me, a bystander who just came by with a joke, while also claiming a terms of service high ground, over a peanut gallery comment


you're really not making your case very well here. am I not entitled to the benefit of that same rule?

 

[Mike Sydney]

Let’s not worry about TOS. Not everyone needs to be protected by a safety blankie for the sensitive people.

Facts are not concerned with your feelings. And it seems like Mike is spitting facts. I mean I read a couple things he posted and it seems legit. But I’m not a scientist like he is claiming. And I believe Randy is? But I’ve seen lots of questionable stud from Randy and also lots of really good stuff. So it is nice to see him confronted/challenged by someone likely smarter than I.

So far I don’t see anything wrong with his posts. They are very direct and to the point.

Thanks
Apart from being a reef owner, there is no skin in it for me
And there is so much misinformation out there, from lots of sources, some intentional and some unintentional.
I have tried almost every type of reactor for a reef tank known to man and also threw it out.
I have also tried just about every management method including triton.

 

[braaap]

Thanks
Apart from being a reef owner, there is no skin in it for me
And there is so much misinformation out there, from lots of sources, some intentional and some unintentional.
I have tried almost every type of reactor for a reef tank known to man and also threw it out.
I have also tried just about every management method including triton.

So what would you say is a level of aluminum that is too high? And what would you think could be a source? I have minimal equipment inside my water. I honestly think the only things with it might be my Vortech wet sides and the IM heaters.

My ICP a couple weeks ago. Hoe can it be removed?

 

[Miami Reef]

and putting words in other peoples mouths to attack them over the first thing they say in a thread isn't rude? I'm still dumbfounded as to why you're picking a fight with me, a bystander who just came by with a joke, while also claiming a terms of service high ground, over a peanut gallery comment

Well, I apologize if I misspoke. I didn’t know you were joking.

FWIW, these are some of the posts I’ve been seeing around the chem forum tonight:

Sorry Randy for your closed mind

but you would know that Randy , your an expert chemist, who studied where

Twaddle Randy

Go chase ghosts elsewhere Randy

It’s not a good look for anyone IMO.

 

[commod0re]

I'm not a materials scientist either, I am a software engineer, but what I do know of it suggests that Mike is probably correct

https://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/aluminium/aluminum-and-water.htm
> Aluminum metal rapidly develops a thin layer of aluminum oxide of a few millimeters that prevents the metal from reacting with water.

> The most abundant aluminum compounds are aluminum oxide and aluminum hydroxide, and these are water insoluble.

> At pH values below 4.5 solubility rapidly increases


As for bauxite, bauxite is a sedimentary rock composed of aluminum minerals such as gibbsite, boehmite, and diaspore, which are also all considered water insoluble except under extreme conditions: high temperature combined with the presence of strong acids or bases, which are very far from the conditions normally found in the oceans or aquariums

likewise, we can easily find sources corroborating the claim that aluminum oxide, bauxite, and a number of other elements, can interfere with the free aluminum readings on an ICP test:

https://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/biblio/20470534https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-908X.2015.00356.xhttps://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/biblio/21582747

while he didn't say it in the most gentle or friendly way, I think he actually had a good point: as laypeople it can be very easy to be misled by laboratory-grade scientific equipment when we don't sufficiently know the intricacies of how to properly use it. Effectively using laboratory-grade test equiment means obtaining enough knowledge and relevant training to be able to identify things like confounding factors, interferences, as well as building experience with that particular device well enough to properly interpret the results, and without all of that it can be very easy to look at a number on a test readout and get scared

 

[Miami Reef]

And for your information corals cannot eat ammonia it will kill them

Uptake of ammonium by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata: Effect of feeding, light, and ammonium concentrations

 

[Mike Sydney]

So what would you say is a level of aluminum that is too high? And what would you think could be a source? I have minimal equipment inside my water. I honestly think the only things with it might be my Vortech wet sides and the IM heaters.

My ICP a couple weeks ago. Hoe can it be removed?

It might be for The Fear Of God from Miami "A Mistake" in the result
Aluminium generally does not dissolve too well in Sea Water, which is why it's a popular material to build boats out of. Naturally, seawater contains relatively low concentrations of dissolved aluminium, around 0.5 micrograms per litre (0.5ug/l) in open ocean surface waters so the limit they set is wrong about five times too low and inconsistent with the environment.
How old is your tank

 

[Mike Sydney]

Uptake of ammonium by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata: Effect of feeding, light, and ammonium concentrations

Read the paper properly they are taking nanograms, A nanogram is one-billionth of a gram.
There is no proof that Ammonia or Ammonium was consumed, or that the coral can even convert it if consumed.
Generally, nitrates are consumed and there is proof of this, algae. And the confusing part is as follows.
The fish and coral excrete Ammonia wastes which are then converted by bacteria in that bio-media that you do not like into Ammonium, then Nitrite, then Nitrate. If you have Bio-media in a low-flow area then they will even convert it into Nitrogen Gas. The algae zooxanthellae metabolise the Nitrate and Carbon Dioxide to make sugar, which the coral has as food.
And by the way, I keep Stylophora pistillata, I have three specimens in my tank
You really are Randy's Mom, aren't you?

 

[Mike Sydney]

I'm not a materials scientist either, I am a software engineer, but what I do know of it suggests that Mike is probably correct

https://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/aluminium/aluminum-and-water.htm
> Aluminum metal rapidly develops a thin layer of aluminum oxide of a few millimeters that prevents the metal from reacting with water.

> The most abundant aluminum compounds are aluminum oxide and aluminum hydroxide, and these are water insoluble.

> At pH values below 4.5 solubility rapidly increases


As for bauxite, bauxite is a sedimentary rock composed of aluminum minerals such as gibbsite, boehmite, and diaspore, which are also all considered water insoluble except under extreme conditions: high temperature combined with the presence of strong acids or bases, which are very far from the conditions normally found in the oceans or aquariums

likewise, we can easily find sources corroborating the claim that aluminum oxide, bauxite, and a number of other elements, can interfere with the free aluminum readings on an ICP test:

https://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/biblio/20470534https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-908X.2015.00356.xhttps://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/biblio/21582747

while he didn't say it in the most gentle or friendly way, I think he actually had a good point: as laypeople it can be very easy to be misled by laboratory-grade scientific equipment when we don't sufficiently know the intricacies of how to properly use it. Effectively using laboratory-grade test equiment means obtaining enough knowledge and relevant training to be able to identify things like confounding factors, interferences, as well as building experience with that particular device well enough to properly interpret the results, and without all of that it can be very easy to look at a number on a test readout and get scared

Good Assessment, Me I am getting too old to tolerate people who believe they know more than they do, And I have found that trying to debate even with facts and data is sometimes futile. So some of the time I don't even bother. lol
I have been caught with TCIP results before in a previous life with environmental work.
It left me cautious and I always ask questions, about the results. Often the replies are appalling and then you know you wasted your money. lol
TCIP is like killing a mouse with a howitzer, it's only for bored people with too much money.

 

[commod0re]

It’s equally important to remember, I think, that even well-respected and credentialed experts make mistakes. It’s okay to make mistakes! It had better be because nobody is immune

Thank you for helping us learn, I appreciate you lending your time and expertise to the discussion

 

[Mike Sydney]

It’s equally important to remember, I think, that even well-respected and credentialed experts make mistakes. It’s okay to make mistakes! It had better be because nobody is immune

Thank you for helping us learn, I appreciate you lending your time and expertise to the discussion

Your Welcome

 

[Curiousbranching]

I think seachem matrix has Al because I used it and have high Al

I’ve been using Matrix in my 120g tank for about five years, and my ICP results have either shown no detectable aluminum or very low levels, usually in the 0-5 ppb range.

In my local club, quite a few people have had aluminum-related issues when using Marine Pure or aluminum-based phosphate removers. I’m not a scientist, so I can’t say anything for certain, but I do know that in those tanks, even though other parameters besides aluminum looked fine, SPS corals tended to deteriorate and die, often experiencing rapid tissue loss.

So until I come across a well-documented scientific study that proves otherwise, I’ll be staying away from any questionable sources of aluminum.

 

[Mike Sydney]

I’ve been using Matrix in my 120g tank for about five years, and my ICP results have either shown no detectable aluminum or very low levels, usually in the 0-5 ppb range.

In my local club, quite a few people have had aluminum-related issues when using Marine Pure or aluminum-based phosphate removers. I’m not a scientist, so I can’t say anything for certain, but I do know that in those tanks, even though other parameters besides aluminum looked fine, SPS corals tended to deteriorate and die, often experiencing rapid tissue loss.

So until I come across a well-documented scientific study that proves otherwise, I’ll be staying away from any questionable sources of aluminum.

I use both with zero issues, I have not had any RTN since I stopped buying wild caught Acropora coral

 

[Curiousbranching]

I use both with zero issues, I have not had any RTN since I stopped buying wild caught Acropora coral

Most of the tanks where I’ve seen RTN involved wild-collected Acropora, rather than the named, designer varieties. But my tank is the same in that regard, and I rarely experience RTN. Sometimes, when my tank wasn’t stable in terms of nutrients, I did run into issues—mostly from being too greedy with light and pushing PAR too high. When phosphorus levels dropped too low, probably below 0.03 ppm, some of my Acropora would suffer from tip burn.

So I don’t think the issue is necessarily about whether the Acropora were wild-collected. I really wish my chemistry knowledge was as strong as some of you guys so I could approach these issues more scientifically, instead of second-guessing everything and getting caught up in rumors. Unfortunately, this is just the limit of what I know.

 

[Mike Sydney]

Dose your tank with 2 ml per (100 litres of tank volume) per day of a solution made up of 50% vinegar and 50% vodka, do that every single day and forget about phosphate and nitrate the coral will eat the bacteria that grows from this dosing. You will not be able to measure any phosphate or nitrates but the corals will look great with good colour
Its a very old method from the 70's but it works