Causes for high aluminum

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Do you know Mike Sydney outside of reef2Reef? You both seemed to come out of nowhere to attack these aluminum threads that have been basically the same discussion for 20 years without anyone except Seachem fighting them so strongly

Do you work for any company that makes or sells aluminum-containing materials to the reef hobby?
Nope. Never met him. I’m not professionally in a chemistry or aquaculture related field at all, and I have more materials science expertise with plastics than metals. I am a software engineer by trade, and I have some related schooling. I just happen to think that he’s right about alumina, and I think that you have gone out of your way to be very difficult, and while he is clearly frustrated beyond the point of being nice about it, you have yet to actually effectively support your hypothesis here. You do seem to take any disagreement very personally though

This repeated demonstration of logical fallacies really undermines the authority you’re trying to bring to this thread. I would invite you to cease with the strawman arguments, the ad hominem attacks, intentional ambiguities to try to spring lame gotchas, composition/divison, and now hopeful genetic fallacy even… so far you have only proven that you are unwilling to be intellectually honest in this and would prefer to play dumb games and troll people until they’ve had it and get moderated. It might work on Mike, but it won’t work on me, I have unlimited patience
 
Did you? Because the focus of this paper is actually on developing a model to predict defluoridation rates for drinking water, and specifically mentions that the presence of fluoride is a key factor for these circumstances. This does not actually provide any evidence that aluminum oxide dissolves in normal ocean water conditions. It also doesn’t go into any particulars about the form of aluminum detected in the water afterwards while validating the model, so it doesn’t seem to actually support what you’re saying. Another key difference between potable water and seawater that you are glossing over is that potable water has generally also been treated with chlorine, which will cause pitting corrosion with aluminum oxide and is a great reason to avoid using tap water in any aquarium

I will concede at least that I have not ruled out any forms of mechanical erosion, and this could in fact cause problems, but not due to aluminum toxicity

Now as for papers that are truly relevant here is one that demonstrates directly that there is no detectible aluminum released from alumina under reef conditions: https://e-lss.jp/seachem/downloads/articles/Aluminum-Solubility-Toxicity.pdf
The only way they were able to measure any free aluminum in the water was to triple the dose and use a pH below 6. A triple dose at a representive pH still produced zero measurable aluminum leaching

So I say again, you’re spreading FUD and citing references you clearly either didn’t fully read, or don’t understand

While the focus of a paper might be modeling, the data is the data. I don’t care why they did it.

Wow, just wow. you linked the paper from Seachem? I debunked that decades ago. They used a method that by their own admission did not have the ability to detect the levels I reported. Too high of a limit of detection. They say the limit in the link you post is 200 ppb. Very few reefers see that much. How convenient for Seachem.

Are you a Seachem employee?
 
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Nope. Never met him. I’m not professionally in a chemistry or aquaculture related field at all, and I have more materials science expertise with plastics than metals. I am a software engineer by trade, and I have some related schooling. I just happen to think that he’s right about alumina, and I think that you have gone out of your way to be very difficult, and while he is clearly frustrated beyond the point of being nice about it, you have yet to actually effectively support your hypothesis here. You do seem to take any disagreement very personally though

This repeated demonstration of logical fallacies really undermines the authority you’re trying to bring to this thread. I would invite you to cease with the strawman arguments, the ad hominem attacks, intentional ambiguities to try to spring lame gotchas, composition/divison, and now hopeful genetic fallacy even… so far you have only proven that you are unwilling to be intellectually honest in this and would prefer to play dumb games and troll people until they’ve had it and get moderated. It might work on Mike, but it won’t work on me, I have unlimited patience

I posted the studies that have refuted your claims repeatedly. My work is an experimental result. It is an experimental result that you cannot refute.

If there was a study other than mine in seawater that showed any useful data, I’d be greatly interested.

Lacking such corroboration, and asked by you to supply it, I have shown similar studies in similar but not identical fluids that show aluminum release.

There is really nothing else to provide data to you one way or the other. Obviously you choose to not believe my results for reasons I do not understand, but so be it. You have not suggested what, if anything, might be wrong with my experiments, nor could Seachem.

Just like the Seachem war days, readers can choose who to believe and who not, or just decide they are unconvinced one way or the other. I don’t really care, since it’s not my product.

In any case, unless I am personally challenged again as not possibly being a chemist, I’ve said all I’m going to in this topic.
 
That is not a scientific peer reviewed journal article.
It's written and published by Seachem, a company with a vested interest to deny aluminium leaching from their products in the face of overwhelming independent evidence to the contrary.
Fair point but I’ll still point out that the fact that it came from seachem, does not necessarily invalidate it; this is a genetic fallacy. It does mean that I should try to corroborate it with something else though to overcome the potential bias

Oh, look, that wasn’t so hard: https://almet-marine.com/wp-content...viour-of-aluminium-in-marine-environments.pdf


This paper admits that aluminum is sensitive to pitting corrosion near neutral pH, but it again says that alumina is insoluble in water, and effectively inhibits the pitting corrosion of aluminum over time. It also goes into the influence of pH and expands on this to note that the nature of the solution is also important, not just the pH. The stability demonstrated here supports that alumina does not readily dissolve or transform into free aluminum in typical oceanic conditions

https://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/servlets/purl/20671863This paper, which is one I already linked earlier, demonstrates that while it may seem like it would occur in theory, in practice there are many inhibiting factors that come together to prevent it:
> Although thermo-dynamic calculations suggest possible instability of the oxide in slightly alkaline solutions, such as seawater, protective nature of the oxide in practice is attributed to the presence of alloying elements such as Mg and Mn. Thus, the passivity of both the aluminum matrix alloy
(the anode) and the intermetallics (cathodes) have to be considered in evaluating the corrosion and protection of aluminum alloys



I’ll at least admit that there seem to be very few studies that are truly directly relevant to aquaculture. Many papers I can find are related specifically to choosing alloys for shipbuilding and so aren’t concerned about aluminum toxicity. Many other papers are specific to public drinking water which, for a variety of reasons, are not actually appropriate to extrapolate directly into seawater from. However, I was similarly unable to find any papers that show that alumina particles from pitting corrosion are a source of aluminum toxicity and the ones I linked at least also support the idea that alumina does not dissolve into aluminum under normal conditions. So while I must admit that there exists a potential for it to be a problem under some circumstances, it has not been established that that is actually the case.
 
Test error is possible. It’s 18 months old.
Try sending a sample to another lab for TCIP, there is one in Europe I used to send samples to
That might give you an answer
I used to get TCIP test done but all of a sudden they came up with vanadium was too high, I questioned them and of cause, they did nothing wrong, so a sent a sample elsewhere and the vanadium was low, so after this happened a number of times with different elements I decided that is was a mug's game. Doing the occasional water change is less stressful, lol
 
You are making the mistake of taking a fact and extrapolating it to a situation where it may not apply.

Of course I agree that particulates of aluminum oxide the water will read by icp as aluminum. That was a major focus of my study and the follow up work suggested by Seachem.

That does not mean that all detected aluminum is particulate. It isn’t.
Well thanks at least you can accept that truth
The problem is that TCIP is not necessarily the gospel truth, it is dependent on sample prep, and that was my argument
As you would be aware Aluminum has a very low solubility in water, I mean very very low. And since the TCIP cannot distinguish between the metal or its oxide, then Houston we have a problem, don't we?
 
Ok, I certainly agree to apologize in this or any case where I am wrong. I have done so in the past, but this is not one of them.
So would you agree that Aluminium Oxide can be falsely detected as Aluminium metal by a TCIP test? Yes or no will do Randy
 
Exactly, I also learned that it's mainly diatoms that need silicate – not dinos. But now I'm totally confused and don't know who to believe anymore.:anxious-face-with-sweat:
That statement is only partially true, most dinoflagellates have internal siliceous skeletons, unlike Diatoms which have exterior silica exoskeletons.
Some dinoflagellates have cellulose skeletons
Don't be confused there is a sort of weird war going on the background, over a challenge to authority
 
Can you explain to me why this doesn't work in my tank? I've tried exactly that several times – and my corals absolutely hated it. I don't think they even know they're supposed to eat the bacteria.
Two things where do you dose, and how much? I dose the sump, so it gets mixed up well with the tank water before it enters the main tank, I do not dose more than 2.5 ml at a time.
I have the doser set on slow. Otherwise getting doused with vodka a acid might tick anything off
 
My work is an experimental result. It is an experimental result that you cannot refute.
are you... for real? that's not how experiments work; it's not how the scientific method works at all

You can't cite yourself to support yourself; that is circular reasoning. You can cite other relevant works to support yours, or the experiment can be repeated by others to support (or not) your findings, but they are not immune to refutation simply because you performed the experiment and published your findings.
Obviously you choose to not believe my results for reasons I do not understand, but so be it.
it's not that I don't believe that you got the results you say you got, what turns me off is the way you insist that you must be right even though, by your own admission, nobody has actually checked your work. Normally the scientific method calls for repeated testing, ideally by other people, to either confirm and corroborate, or refute, your methodology and findings. Has your paper been peer reviewed, and your experiment been repeated by others? so far it seems like from what you have said, that the answer is probably no, and so why should your word on this hold more weight? because you ran one experiment that nobody verified?

basically, I am reluctant to blindly believe you because your whole attitude boils down to "I am the expert so you should just take my word for it." Maybe you are right often enough, and maybe you're even right now! but, that doesn't mean that we should all just assume you are always right without ever questioning it and you have done nothing to improve the view for me. Your readiness to insult, argue in obvious bad faith, and then take your ball and go home when you don't immediately get your way turns me off. It's weirdly manipulative.

You have not suggested what, if anything, might be wrong with my experiments, nor could Seachem.

https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-aluminum-in-the-reef-aquarium/
is this the experiment you're talking about? if so I'd say that the main problem with it is that you conflate total aluminum measurement with toxic aluminum. No measures were described as having been taken to account for interference, and insufficient measures were taken during sample preparation. Micron filtration is insufficient to remove alumina; many alumina particles are nanometer scale (~50nm) and simply won't be caught by a micron filter. Fine particles of alumina do not have to be dissolved into aluminate ions in order to show up as aluminum on an ICP test, whether ICP-OES or ICP-MS. Speaking of the chemistry, it seems unlikely that alumina would dissolve into aluminum in water; water is not a reducer. alumina can release aluminate ions in water, but as you noted in some of your other measurements, sea water is already naturally near the saturation point of aluminate ions.
Similarly I don't think it was a fair comparison to use aluminum chloride as your control for aluminum uptake for a variety of reasons. Yes you were able to observe similar levels of stress to corals between a dose of aluminum chloride and aluminum oxide, but that does not actually demonstrate that the level of toxicity was actually similar. The observed effect from alumina depends on localized, slow leaching of bioavailable aluminum—unlike aluminum chloride, which is fully soluble and instantly bioavailable. Equating their toxicity disregards fundamental toxicological principles like dose-response, solubility, and chemical speciation. To put it another way: if we were to compare copper pipe (solid metal) and copper sulfate (soluble salt) for fish toxicity, would we say they are equally toxic because both can harm fish at high enough exposure? Of course not. Copper sulfate is acutely toxic in tiny doses. Copper pipe releases negligible copper unless corroded, and even then, only slowly. That’s exactly the kind of flawed comparison happening here between aluminum oxide and aluminum chloride.

The affects on the corals are interesting though because while the methodology of measurement may have been flawed, and the conclusion that alumina releases toxic aluminum into the water based on those measurements may be exaggerated because of that, the proof in the pudding, as they say, is in the eating, and it's clear that the corals did not appreciate something about it. What is not clear though is whether it was due to aluminum toxicity (whether metallic or supersaturated aluminate ions), particulate irritation, or even something else entirely.

Again it's not that I am choosing to believe that you are wholly wrong. I can agree that your findings do at least suggest that caution should be taken when using some of these products. My main issue is that you did not sufficiently demonstrate that what you measured was definitely aluminum and not alumina, but you still concluded that it was definitely aluminum released from the alumina anyway, and not simply the presence of alumina interfering with your measurements, and you act like you should be unimpeachable over these results which have not been replicated.
 
are you... for real? that's not how experiments work; it's not how the scientific method works at all

You can't cite yourself to support yourself; that is circular reasoning. You can cite other relevant works to support yours, or the experiment can be repeated by others to support (or not) your findings, but they are not immune to refutation simply because you performed the experiment and published your findings.

it's not that I don't believe that you got the results you say you got, what turns me off is the way you insist that you must be right even though, by your own admission, nobody has actually checked your work. Normally the scientific method calls for repeated testing, ideally by other people, to either confirm and corroborate, or refute, your methodology and findings. Has your paper been peer reviewed, and your experiment been repeated by others? so far it seems like from what you have said, that the answer is probably no, and so why should your word on this hold more weight? because you ran one experiment that nobody verified?

basically, I am reluctant to blindly believe you because your whole attitude boils down to "I am the expert so you should just take my word for it." Maybe you are right often enough, and maybe you're even right now! but, that doesn't mean that we should all just assume you are always right without ever questioning it and you have done nothing to improve the view for me. Your readiness to insult, argue in obvious bad faith, and then take your ball and go home when you don't immediately get your way turns me off. It's weirdly manipulative.



https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-aluminum-in-the-reef-aquarium/
is this the experiment you're talking about? if so I'd say that the main problem with it is that you conflate total aluminum measurement with toxic aluminum. No measures were described as having been taken to account for interference, and insufficient measures were taken during sample preparation. Micron filtration is insufficient to remove alumina; many alumina particles are nanometer scale (~50nm) and simply won't be caught by a micron filter. Fine particles of alumina do not have to be dissolved into aluminate ions in order to show up as aluminum on an ICP test, whether ICP-OES or ICP-MS. Speaking of the chemistry, it seems unlikely that alumina would dissolve into aluminum in water; water is not a reducer. alumina can release aluminate ions in water, but as you noted in some of your other measurements, sea water is already naturally near the saturation point of aluminate ions.
Similarly I don't think it was a fair comparison to use aluminum chloride as your control for aluminum uptake for a variety of reasons. Yes you were able to observe similar levels of stress to corals between a dose of aluminum chloride and aluminum oxide, but that does not actually demonstrate that the level of toxicity was actually similar. The observed effect from alumina depends on localized, slow leaching of bioavailable aluminum—unlike aluminum chloride, which is fully soluble and instantly bioavailable. Equating their toxicity disregards fundamental toxicological principles like dose-response, solubility, and chemical speciation. To put it another way: if we were to compare copper pipe (solid metal) and copper sulfate (soluble salt) for fish toxicity, would we say they are equally toxic because both can harm fish at high enough exposure? Of course not. Copper sulfate is acutely toxic in tiny doses. Copper pipe releases negligible copper unless corroded, and even then, only slowly. That’s exactly the kind of flawed comparison happening here between aluminum oxide and aluminum chloride.

The affects on the corals are interesting though because while the methodology of measurement may have been flawed, and the conclusion that alumina releases toxic aluminum into the water based on those measurements may be exaggerated because of that, the proof in the pudding, as they say, is in the eating, and it's clear that the corals did not appreciate something about it. What is not clear though is whether it was due to aluminum toxicity (whether metallic or supersaturated aluminate ions), particulate irritation, or even something else entirely.

Again it's not that I am choosing to believe that you are wholly wrong. I can agree that your findings do at least suggest that caution should be taken when using some of these products. My main issue is that you did not sufficiently demonstrate that what you measured was definitely aluminum and not alumina, but you still concluded that it was definitely aluminum released from the alumina anyway, and not simply the presence of alumina interfering with your measurements, and you act like you should be unimpeachable over these results which have not been replicated.
Well said.
I think you will find the individual will not react well to this accurate interpretation of the issue
Being challenged in this way is probably new to them, and they are just not used to it.
I think that TCIP is probably a waste of time and money and has the potential to send people on a wild goose chase that at worst will result in instability causing coral death and at best stress. And all of this just to avoid a water change? It makes no sense other than the creation of a market that someone wants to exploit by selling testing and or supplements to satisfy our need to be in control, I am sticking to the occasional water change, and they can fantasise as much as they please.
Timeshare vacations are probably better value
 
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Try sending a sample to another lab for TCIP, there is one in Europe I used to send samples to
That might give you an answer
I used to get TCIP test done but all of a sudden they came up with vanadium was too high, I questioned them and of cause, they did nothing wrong, so a sent a sample elsewhere and the vanadium was low, so after this happened a number of times with different elements I decided that is was a mug's game. Doing the occasional water change is less stressful, lol

I’ve sent to ATI in Germany. Widely known to be the “most reliable.” But I have no way to challenge that.

Honestly I’m not worried about it. It’s been pretty stable and happy.
 

Well said.
I think you will find the individual will not react well to this accurate interpretation of the issue
Being challenged in this way is probably new to them, and they are just not used to it.
I think that TCIP is probably a waste of time and money and has the potential to send people on a wild goose chase that at worst will result in instability causing coral death and at best stress. And all of this just to avoid a water change? It makes no sense other than the creation of a market that someone wants to exploit by selling testing and or supplements to satisfy our need to be in control, I am sticking to the occasional water change, and they can fantasise as much as they please.
Timeshare vacations are probably better value

I’ve sent to ATI in Germany. Widely known to be the “most reliable.” But I have no way to challenge that.

Honestly I’m not worried about it. It’s been pretty stable and happy.
Well when you get the result back, you just yawn when you get a funny stupid result that isn't possible and wonder why you are getting a TCIP test done at all
 
While reading through these threads, I’ve been thinking and a question keeps coming to mind that’s been bothering me—or maybe I just haven’t really understood it yet. Maybe someone can help me with it.

I think we can all agree that an ICP analysis cannot determine the form in which aluminum is present. But I’m wondering: is it even necessarily relevant whether it’s in a toxic form?

What happens to aluminum that is present in elevated but non-toxic concentrations in the water? Is it absorbed by our animals—fish, corals, clams, etc.? Can it accumulate in their bodies or even be converted into a toxic form within the organism?

Are there any studies that have investigated organisms in this regard and confirmed such processes? From my point of view, this would be an equally important and interesting question. Because if aluminum can accumulate in animals and become toxic over time, then it wouldn't really matter whether it's currently present in a toxic form in the water or not—I would still need to take action against elevated aluminum levels.

Can anyone answer this question for me?
 
While reading through these threads, I’ve been thinking and a question keeps coming to mind that’s been bothering me—or maybe I just haven’t really understood it yet. Maybe someone can help me with it.

I think we can all agree that an ICP analysis cannot determine the form in which aluminum is present. But I’m wondering: is it even necessarily relevant whether it’s in a toxic form?

What happens to aluminum that is present in elevated but non-toxic concentrations in the water? Is it absorbed by our animals—fish, corals, clams, etc.? Can it accumulate in their bodies or even be converted into a toxic form within the organism?

Are there any studies that have investigated organisms in this regard and confirmed such processes? From my point of view, this would be an equally important and interesting question. Because if aluminum can accumulate in animals and become toxic over time, then it wouldn't really matter whether it's currently present in a toxic form in the water or not—I would still need to take action against elevated aluminum levels.

Can anyone answer this question for me?

I can provide a few comments…

1. On the premise of the question, while icp cannot distinguish particulate vs fully dissolved, certain pretreatments (e.g., sub micron filtering or centrifugation) can do that to a substantial degree.

2. Whatever mix of dissolved and particulate forms that can be released from Phosguard does have the potential to irritate corals and cause them to close up. Leathers, especially, were known to do this and that effect was the impetus for my studies. I was trying to understand the reasons for it, not trying the create a problem when non existed.

3. Most tox studies, like the ones I did, are based on at least initially dissolved aluminum. It might possibly precipitate during the study, however.
 
Thank you very much for your response – I truly appreciate it.

From your perspective, would the filtration of our samples be a common method used by today’s well-known laboratories for seawater analysis? Or is this something that would only be done by someone specifically designing their tests to analyze aluminum?

In reference to your study and my question about toxicity in organisms – does this mean that it would be possible in principle, but we simply don’t know for sure at this point?
 
Thank you very much for your response – I truly appreciate it.

From your perspective, would the filtration of our samples be a common method used by today’s well-known laboratories for seawater analysis? Or is this something that would only be done by someone specifically designing their tests to analyze aluminum?

In reference to your study and my question about toxicity in organisms – does this mean that it would be possible in principle, but we simply don’t know for sure at this point?

I cannot respond for all of them, but I would hope they would to avoid whole bacteria counting as if they were freely dissolved ions. They may also do it to protect their equipment from clogs.

Oceamo includes a syringe filter in the collection kit:

https://oceamo.com/wp-content/uploads/240515_ICPMS_EN.pdf
 
In reference to your study and my question about toxicity in organisms – does this mean that it would be possible in principle, but we simply don’t know for sure at this point?

Complicated, but maybe possible. I think one could test toxicity of soluble aluminum, test particulates only, then determine the free aluminum that dissolved into the particulate only experiment, and in some fashion, subtract out its effect. Not trivial, IMO.
 

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