Chop shops bad for the hobby?

[Troylee]

Just bought a dozen Acros from a local hobbiest that were fragged on the spot. I didnt even have them put on plugs and they went direct to my tank looking fine.

There is nothing wrong with a fresh frag being sold. It’s the responsibility of the buyer to know the differences in frags.

I’d rather buy a 15$ fresh fragged acro than 250$ + for whatever silly “named” coral they come up with next.

Coming from a display and going into yours is one thing.. being plucked from the ocean and shipped and dipped and traveling in bags several times in a month is way different!

 

[ImGoingCoastal]

This is giving me major flashbacks of the Mr. Coral days ~15 years ago. Not for nothing, I bought many of they $5-10 frags back then (I was an E5 in the military, don't shoot me) and most survived and eventually thrived. I did lose roughly 1/4 of what I bought, but he ended up getting blasted by the internet and going out of business.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

On the original subject of this post, I do agree. You can't take a stressed coral, chop it up and expect it to do well. But I think there is an underlining second subject in this post that corals from mariculture are bad. I disagree with this. I bought my first mariculture colonies end of last year I think. The colonies that I bought are thriving. I left them uncut except for a couple pieces that accidentally broke off. Of those pieces, I glued to plugs and only one turned brown in my frag tank and still is. Full polyp extension and red instead of green, but still brown. But the exciting part is seeing the change in the main colonies with the new growth with your lighting and nutrients. That coral will become your coral because of that. Most aquacultured corals that have been around have stabilized to a point that there will be very little change from tank to tank. The process of turning a mariculture coral into an aquacultured one is fun and exciting, because you do not know what you will get. Even the duds have their own appeal. I haven’t had one die on me, but I have had aquacultered frags from big name vendors die on me. People will pay the same amount of money for live ocean rock (which is great BTW). But this way you get ocean biome and a coral colony to boot.

New additions

 

[HNR]

I agree generally speaking, however a lot of those posting on these threads are speaking from the perspective of those interested in SPS, with some LPS.

As a soft coral collector, the only way some of the more rare and unusual pieces are available is through chop shops and massive importers.

Now that being said, there is a major difference in that a softie is well… a softie. Generally speaking these will survive without hiccup assuming they’re labeled correctly as photosynthetic. I understand with SPS and LPS that’s not necessarily the case. Point is chop shops and stores that have quick throughput are really the only ways currently for the average consumer to get some of the “oddballs” that aren’t being aquacultered.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

On the original subject of this post, I do agree. You can't take a stressed coral, chop it up and expect it to do well. But I think there is an underlining second subject in this post that corals from mariculture are bad. I disagree with this. I bought my first mariculture colonies end of last year I think. The colonies that I bought are thriving. I left them uncut except for a couple pieces that accidentally broke off. Of those pieces, I glued to plugs and only one turned brown in my frag tank and still is. Full polyp extension and red instead of green, but still brown. But the exciting part is seeing the change in the main colonies with the new growth with your lighting and nutrients. That coral will become your coral because of that. Most aquacultured corals that have been around have stabilized to a point that there will be very little change from tank to tank. The process of turning a mariculture coral into an aquacultured one is fun and exciting, because you do not know what you will get. Even the duds have their own appeal. I haven’t had one die on me, but I have had aquacultered frags from big name vendors die on me. People will pay the same amount of money for live ocean rock (which is great BTW). But this way you get ocean biome and a coral colony to boot.

New additions

I for sure was not implying that mariculture corals are bad. They are actually great imo. I’m specifically referring to vendors who are receiving them and flipping them without giving them proper time to heal or acclimate.

 

[Billyreef-ita]

On the original subject of this post, I do agree. You can't take a stressed coral, chop it up and expect it to do well. But I think there is an underlining second subject in this post that corals from mariculture are bad. I disagree with this. I bought my first mariculture colonies end of last year I think. The colonies that I bought are thriving. I left them uncut except for a couple pieces that accidentally broke off. Of those pieces, I glued to plugs and only one turned brown in my frag tank and still is. Full polyp extension and red instead of green, but still brown. But the exciting part is seeing the change in the main colonies with the new growth with your lighting and nutrients. That coral will become your coral because of that. Most aquacultured corals that have been around have stabilized to a point that there will be very little change from tank to tank. The process of turning a mariculture coral into an aquacultured one is fun and exciting, because you do not know what you will get. Even the duds have their own appeal. I haven’t had one die on me, but I have had aquacultered frags from big name vendors die on me. People will pay the same amount of money for live ocean rock (which is great BTW). But this way you get ocean biome and a coral colony to boot.

New additions

Wow you are having great success with maricultured, congrats! I’ve tried myself but not very lucky so far but I like the idea to create your own aquacultured coral!

How do you manage acclimation of the maricultured in your tank? Trying to mimic conditions in the ocean? (ie. Ultra low levels of NO3 and PO4?) or they can adapt to higher nutrients levels? Thanks!

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Wow you are having great success with maricultured, congrats! I’ve tried myself but not very lucky so far but I like the idea to create your own aquacultured coral!

How do you manage acclimation of the maricultured in your tank? Trying to mimic conditions in the ocean? (ie. Ultra low levels of NO3 and PO4?) or they can adapt to higher nutrients levels? Thanks!

What works for me is lower par (200 ish my sand bed) Good flow but not direct. My levels are usually .06 -12 and less than 10.
I think the key also is one should not have any issues growing regular SPS.

 

[Billyreef-ita]

Thanks for your answer, they are very reasonable Numbers. I have no problems with other sps, I think maybe I shoot too much light, I’m at 350 par

 

[commod0re]

I see your point, but keep in mind A potential loss of profit is not a cost. The coral I bought is sold and is profit. Rotating it out for another that may or may not sell, or even survive is a risk not a guarantee. Sending a coral unhealed or browned out is another risk, as it may need to be refunded.

It doesn’t cost them money to hold fresh frags in a system that’s already running. It’s even make them money, because when I buy a frag and it shows up healthy and colored nice, encrusting, I’m going back for more

Actually a potential loss of profit is exactly the definition of “opportunity cost.” It’s not a true cost paid directly, but it represents the outcome of a decision, the cost of taking one choice over another

That minor quibble over definition aside, I agree with your premise anyway because the opportunity cost of driving good, return customers away is substantially bigger over time. Some vendors just don’t care to understand that you only get one shot to impress a new customer and if you fail to the point where they won’t come back then your opportunity cost is whatever they might have bought if they had become a returning customer, and suggested their friends in the same hobby check the same shop out, etc.

IMO businesses worrying overly about opportunity costs tend to ruin themselves because they never think about the big picture enough. For every opportunity cost typically fretted over, there are 2-5 other, substantially more important ones, getting straight up ignored

 

[Featherweight]

Just bought a dozen Acros from a local hobbiest that were fragged on the spot. I didnt even have them put on plugs and they went direct to my tank looking fine.

There is nothing wrong with a fresh frag being sold. It’s the responsibility of the buyer to know the differences in frags.

I’d rather buy a 15$ fresh fragged acro than 250$ + for whatever silly “named” coral they come up with next.

A fresh frag from a hobbiests aquarium of a colony in captivity is a much different thing than moving from an ocean to chop to a hobbiests aquarium...

 

[Dust Bowl Corals Verified Sponsor]

I can see both sides of the equation now that I've started my own home business. Yes, I buy wholesale. No, I won't chop up a newly sent mariculture SPS colony and start selling it. Many reasons why but they main reason is I don't want to introduce any pests into my tank or anyone else's tank either. When I get a mariculture colony in, it stays in its own quarantine tank that's not connected to anything else. It will live there for several months to allow for observation and multiple rounds of treatments. Once it's out of QT, I move it to my frag tank and still don't cut anything up. I like to "bake" them to see what their true potential is.

As for LPS, it also will get the dip/inspection/qt process. There's been many times I won't sell something as the flesh band is too thin or for other reasons. When this happens, it will sit in the tank until it's healthy and ready to go out.

The upside of all this is that I have low overhead since it's operated out of my house. I suspect a lot of these chop shops have a high overhead which requires them to move things quickly.

I can definitely see where the usual chop shops get a bad rap. Nobody likes spending money on corals just to have them die within a week or two of getting them.

 

[Frenchy]

To start I’d like to define a chop shop. A
Chop shop is vender who will buy wholesale that has just been imported. They then take these corals and chop them up and glue them to frags to sell within a week or two.

I’ve been in the hobby for quite some time now and I’ve recently noticed that the amount of shops that sell healthy corals are actually pretty low. For every 30
Chop shops there is about 1 shop selling true healthy aquaculture corals.

The reason I think this needs to be talked about more is because new hobbyists have a lot to learn. Buying your first coral is a big deal and it should be a healthy specimen.
Lots of beginners will buy from a chop shop
Because it’s the cheapest option.

The problem is these corals have taken on a bunch of stress in the last month. Here is the breakdown.
1. Taken from the ocean (mariculture or wild specimens; first set of parameters)

2. Held in a tank until a wholesaler places an order (2nd set of Parameters; 1st dip)

3. Sent to a wholesaler who will usually dip and get ready to go to a business( 3rd set of parameters, 1st or second shipment, and second dip)

4. Sent to a business to get chopped up and fragged (4th set of parameters, 2nd or thirds shipment, and 3rd dip). Most of these businesses are inexperienced and want to move these corals
Fast so they don’t lose them in their systems

5. Shipped to the consumer (5th set of parameters, 3/4 shipment, 4th dip)

This entire process can happen in less than a month. I decided to write this up because I’ve been witnessing this more and more. I actually just seen a shop receive a coral(Acan) chop it up and repost the frags for sale all within 2 days. Corals need to heal and acclimate.

I just wanted to start a thread to get some other input and to make others aware. This hobby isn’t easy and it’s expensive; I just want to help others anyway I can. Please be careful of who you buy from these days!

The answer might be to call out and name the “chop shops”. Certainly helpful to the potential buyers as well embarrassing to the perpetrators. Many of use would welcome the help.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

I can see both sides of the equation now that I've started my own home business. Yes, I buy wholesale. No, I won't chop up a newly sent mariculture SPS colony and start selling it. Many reasons why but they main reason is I don't want to introduce any pests into my tank or anyone else's tank either. When I get a mariculture colony in, it stays in its own quarantine tank that's not connected to anything else. It will live there for several months to allow for observation and multiple rounds of treatments. Once it's out of QT, I move it to my frag tank and still don't cut anything up. I like to "bake" them to see what their true potential is.

As for LPS, it also will get the dip/inspection/qt process. There's been many times I won't sell something as the flesh band is too thin or for other reasons. When this happens, it will sit in the tank until it's healthy and ready to go out.

The upside of all this is that I have low overhead since it's operated out of my house. I suspect a lot of these chop shops have a high overhead which requires them to move things quickly.

I can definitely see where the usual chop shops get a bad rap. Nobody likes spending money on corals just to have them die within a week or two of getting them.

Yes and this is the right way to do it in my opinion. I know quite a few shops
Who can operate the same way even with high overhead.the benefit to the way you do it is over time the coral will grow and you’re paid for your patience and time.

 

[allenk4]

I see your point, but keep in mind A potential loss of profit is not a cost. The coral I bought is sold and is profit. Rotating it out for another that may or may not sell, or even survive is a risk not a guarantee. Sending a coral unhealed or browned out is another risk, as it may need to be refunded.

It doesn’t cost them money to hold fresh frags in a system that’s already running. It’s even make them money, because when I buy a frag and it shows up healthy and colored nice, encrusting, I’m going back for more

I think I understand your perspective, but….if the Seller holds a coral for a day, instead of a week…he can theoretically sell 7x more coral per year.

You could theoretically run an online coral business with almost no holding space.

There is additional risk in holding a coral for two weeks….it may die on you….it may lose color on you…if it has some disease, it may infect your other corals, etc.

High turnover fixes a lot of retail issues

Some percentage of people who is something that turns out to be lower quality say nothing and don’t ask for a refund.

Which shops do you consider “Chop Shops” ?

 

[areefer01]

I think there may be terminology at play here as well with some interchanging "chop shop" with "side hustle". There are plenty of boutique shops who sell "high-end" corals of all types just as there are larger, more established, small businesses.

The onus is always on the hobbyist to navigate between them in my opinion.

 

[VintageReefer]

I think I understand your perspective, but….if the Seller holds a coral for a day, instead of a week…he can theoretically sell 7x more coral per year.

I get it, but it is already being held. And if I didn’t buy it, it would need to remain to be held.

I do see your point but it’s not like they are plucking mh coral out and have another shipment arriving that day that needs the spot. If they are so packed they shouldn’t be ordering more shipments until they have plenty of room. They should also be a professional facility that has frag and qt tanks and room to move corals around as needed. To say a coral vendor, whose entire facility is designed around housing coral, can’t occasionally hold coral a few extra days is disturbing. Again, if I didn’t buy it, there’s no guarantee someone else would, and they need to plan for it to be held anyway, for potentially a lengthy time until it sells, or it may never sell at all

You could theoretically run an online coral business with almost no holding space.

True. With high turnover of desirable sellable items

There is additional risk in holding a coral for two weeks….it may die on you….it may lose color on you…if it has some disease, it may infect your other corals, etc.

And you would rather pass this off to a customer?

High turnover fixes a lot of retail issues

Some percentage of people who is something that turns out to be lower quality say nothing and don’t ask for a refund.

Which shops do you consider “Chop Shops” ?

I consider it more of a sps term but I’ve seen it with lps as well

It means frag, glue, sell. The corals are stressed, recovering, and essentially damaged. I’ve seen acans for sale with half polyps on the edge literally cut in half with a band saw. They have little chance to regrow after that stress + shipping + system changes. Then when they die, they put the rest of the frag at risk also.

Torches shipped with no flesh band. It is so hard to get that to regrow from nothing, and it leaves the coral at high risk of infection. Almost every torch I’ve received that had no flesh and is dead in 6 months.

Acros clipped and glued, and
shipped off right after the glues dried and they arrive bleached or browned out.

 

[LoneStarReef]

There is no misconception, WWC has their mother colonies in view. Most other places with hundreds of frags for sale with a single display tank is obviously not growing corals. It’s easy to tell the difference….

I was just at WWC a few weeks ago and their setup is amazing. I love being able to see the mother colony before I buy a frag. And I love the fact that they won’t sell a frag until it has healed for at least a few weeks.

 

[AydenLincoln]

This is one of my pet peeves. My wife and I got to a lot of shows. I see so much stuff for sale thay is obviously a fresh frag glued to a bone white frag plug. Like would it kill you to let a frag healthy first?

Unpopular opinion here. This is referring to Reef-A-Palooza only not frag swaps. They do this because they have to make a large volume quickly and still have a stock to sell elsewhere like their website. IMO and experience the vendors at these shows are professionals who have been doing this successfully for a long-time and are well-known in the hobby and do well. It’s also only going to attract big names due to the cost of a booth and volume of the show. Local frag swaps are different of course and will vary significantly. But my answer remains the same although for small shows I believe it’s more about a time/space thing and prepping closer to the show for whatever reason.

 

[Rusty_L_Shackleford]

This is one of my pet peeves. My wife and I got to a lot of shows. I see so much stuff for sale thay is obviously a fresh frag glued to a bone white frag plug. Like would it kill you to let a frag healthy first?

Unpopular opinion here. This is referring to Reef-A-Palooza only not frag swaps. They do this because they have to make a large volume quickly and still have a stock to sell elsewhere like their website. IMO and experience the vendors at these shows are professionals who have been doing this successfully for a long-time and are well-known in the hobby and do well. It’s also only going to attract big names due to the cost of a booth and volume of the show. Local frag swaps are different of course and will vary significantly. But my answer remains the same although for small shows I believe it’s more about a time/space thing and prepping closer to the show for whatever reason.

Sure, i get why they do it. To each their own. If these kind of operations didnt exist, a lot of frags would cost a lot more im sure. Theres a big difference between doing this as a business and doing this as an extension of your hobby.

I know some of the high end acro collectors even prefer fresh cut frags to reduce the chances of getting pests. But after many years in this hobby, ive had a much higher success rate with frags that have had a chance to get established and grow in a bit, vs frags that are obviously fresh cut. So thats what i buy.

 

[AydenLincoln]

Sure, i get why they do it. To each their own. If these kind of operations didnt exist, a lot of frags would cost a lot more im sure. Theres a big difference between doing this as a business and doing this as an extension of your hobby.

I know some of the high end acro collectors even prefer fresh cut frags to reduce the chances of getting pests. But after many years in this hobby, ive had a much higher success rate with frags that have had a chance to get established and grow in a bit, vs frags that are obviously fresh cut. So thats what i buy.

Completely understandable to each their own!:)