Chop shops bad for the hobby?

[p1u5h13r4m24]

To start I’d like to define a chop shop. A
Chop shop is vender who will buy wholesale that has just been imported. They then take these corals and chop them up and glue them to frags to sell within a week or two.

I’ve been in the hobby for quite some time now and I’ve recently noticed that the amount of shops that sell healthy corals are actually pretty low. For every 30
Chop shops there is about 1 shop selling true healthy aquaculture corals.

The reason I think this needs to be talked about more is because new hobbyists have a lot to learn. Buying your first coral is a big deal and it should be a healthy specimen.
Lots of beginners will buy from a chop shop
Because it’s the cheapest option.

The problem is these corals have taken on a bunch of stress in the last month. Here is the breakdown.
1. Taken from the ocean (mariculture or wild specimens; first set of parameters)

2. Held in a tank until a wholesaler places an order (2nd set of Parameters; 1st dip)

3. Sent to a wholesaler who will usually dip and get ready to go to a business( 3rd set of parameters, 1st or second shipment, and second dip)

4. Sent to a business to get chopped up and fragged (4th set of parameters, 2nd or thirds shipment, and 3rd dip). Most of these businesses are inexperienced and want to move these corals
Fast so they don’t lose them in their systems

5. Shipped to the consumer (5th set of parameters, 3/4 shipment, 4th dip)

This entire process can happen in less than a month. I decided to write this up because I’ve been witnessing this more and more. I actually just seen a shop receive a coral(Acan) chop it up and repost the frags for sale all within 2 days. Corals need to heal and acclimate.

I just wanted to start a thread to get some other input and to make others aware. This hobby isn’t easy and it’s expensive; I just want to help others anyway I can. Please be careful of who you buy from these days!

 

[smitten with ocean life]

good point. i certainly didnt realize this when i first started!

 

[LovinlifeinGuam]

I agree that it's a bad practice ethically but don't think there's much, if anything, that can be done. Why? Because if the solution is awareness then for it to be effective new hobbyists would have to at least put some sort of effort into learning about this. Plenty of beginners buy beautiful, expensive aquacultured Acros that die after a week of their addition also. The issue seems to be the lack of effort to learn what good beginner corals are. Experienced reefers all know about chop shops.

 

[Rusty_L_Shackleford]

To start I’d like to define a chop shop. A
Chop shop is vender who will buy wholesale that has just been imported. They then take these corals and chop them up and glue them to frags to sell within a week or two.

I’ve been in the hobby for quite some time now and I’ve recently noticed that the amount of shops that sell healthy corals are actually pretty low. For every 30
Chop shops there is about 1 shop selling true healthy aquaculture corals.

The reason I think this needs to be talked about more is because new hobbyists have a lot to learn. Buying your first coral is a big deal and it should be a healthy specimen.
Lots of beginners will buy from a chop shop
Because it’s the cheapest option.

The problem is these corals have taken on a bunch of stress in the last month. Here is the breakdown.
1. Taken from the ocean (mariculture or wild specimens; first set of parameters)

2. Held in a tank until a wholesaler places an order (2nd set of Parameters; 1st dip)

3. Sent to a wholesaler who will usually dip and get ready to go to a business( 3rd set of parameters, 1st or second shipment, and second dip)

4. Sent to a business to get chopped up and fragged (4th set of parameters, 2nd or thirds shipment, and 3rd dip). Most of these businesses are inexperienced and want to move these corals
Fast so they don’t lose them in their systems

5. Shipped to the consumer (5th set of parameters, 3/4 shipment, 4th dip)

This entire process can happen in less than a month. I decided to write this up because I’ve been witnessing this more and more. I actually just seen a shop receive a coral(Acan) chop it up and repost the frags for sale all within 2 days. Corals need to heal and acclimate.

I just wanted to start a thread to get some other input and to make others aware. This hobby isn’t easy and it’s expensive; I just want to help others anyway I can. Please be careful of who you buy from these days!

This is one of my pet peeves. My wife and I got to a lot of shows. I see so much stuff for sale thay is obviously a fresh frag glued to a bone white frag plug. Like would it kill you to let a frag healthy first?

 

[VintageReefer]

This is one of my pet peeves. My wife and I got to a lot of shows. I see so much stuff for sale thay is obviously a fresh frag glued to a bone white frag plug. Like would it kill you to let a frag healthy first?

I agree. It cost literally zero to park it on a rack for 2 weeks and let it heal and start to grow over the glue before listing for sale.

I also don’t appreciate when vendors refuse to hold corallre than a day or two after I place my order. Give me time to shop more, or coordinate a day I can be home to receive it, instead of rushing it over to me.

Are you unconfident in the corals health or is it your systems health? If I didn’t buy it, your holding it anyway. What’s it matter if it’s been paid for? If it perished on your watch then your losing money on the coral anyway.

Why play hot potato and act like holding a coral, which is your profession, which you have tanks and facilities for, is an inconvenience?

I was up late one night (into morning) and bought a coral around 4:30-5am. Went to bed for my “overnight sleep”. Woke up around noon, checked my email, the coral was already on its way shipped to me overnight. Website said they ship M-Th, they hold orders up to 48 hours, and it was a Monday afternoon. They opened at 10, shipped at 1pm without talking to me. I honestly thought some coordination would happen. nope. Too late for me to even call and ask them to wait a day so it would come on my day off. I felt conflicted because on one hand I did appreciate the speed, but this is something that can’t sit on my porch all day, and now (well, then) I had to ask for a last min work from home day, right before a scheduled day off.

Plus, I was on the fence for a few other items and free sh was at 300. At checkout I paid sh, still making up my mind on other things and figuring I’ll add more on then get refunded sh once I cross 300. After this, no way I was going to place a second order and pay sh again or deal with a place that doesn’t communicate

 

[bluemon]

I agree. It cost literally zero to park it on a rack for 2 weeks and let it heal and start to grow over the glue before listing for sale.

I also don’t appreciate when vendors refuse to hold corallre than a day or two after I place my order. Give me time to shop more, or coordinate a day I can be home to receive it, instead of rushing it over to me.

Are you unconfident in the corals health or is it your systems health? If I didn’t buy it, your holding it anyway. What’s it matter if it’s been paid for? If it perished on your watch then your losing money on the coral anyway.

Why play hot potato and act like holding a coral, which is your profession, which you have tanks and facilities for, is an inconvenience?

I was up late one night (into morning) and bought a coral around 4:30-5am. Went to bed for my “overnight sleep”. Woke up around noon, checked my email, the coral was already on its way shipped to me overnight. Website said they ship M-Th, they hold orders up to 48 hours, and it was a Monday afternoon. They opened at 10, shipped at 1pm without talking to me. I honestly thought some coordination would happen. nope. Too late for me to even call and ask them to wait a day so it would come on my day off. I felt conflicted because on one hand I did appreciate the speed, but this is something that can’t sit on my porch all day, and now (well, then) I had to ask for a last min work from home day, right before a scheduled day off.

Plus, I was on the fence for a few other items and free sh was at 300. At checkout I paid sh, still making up my mind on other things and figuring I’ll add more on then get refunded sh once I cross 300. After this, no way I was going to place a second order and pay sh again or deal with a place that doesn’t communicate

Technically it doesn’t cost them zero to have the frags heal.

There is the opportunity cost where you’re not accounting for additional corals they could have in the system to rotate out to customers if they sold them without healing.

Not defending them, I don’t like chop shops, but it makes sense economically for them.

That being said, I do tend to avoid these chop shops unless they are priced accordingly. If for a similar or comparable frag, I am paying less than half, I’ll take the chance. Especially if that price is under $30.

I’m sure many will align with me on that.

But at that price, I also just deal with my local reefers, especially SPSs.

So really chop shops for me are for cheap LPS frags that can’t be propagated.

 

[VintageReefer]

Technically it doesn’t cost them zero to have the frags heal.

There is the opportunity cost where you’re not accounting for additional corals they could have in the system to rotate out to customers if they sold them without healing.

I see your point, but keep in mind A potential loss of profit is not a cost. The coral I bought is sold and is profit. Rotating it out for another that may or may not sell, or even survive is a risk not a guarantee. Sending a coral unhealed or browned out is another risk, as it may need to be refunded.

It doesn’t cost them money to hold fresh frags in a system that’s already running. It’s even make them money, because when I buy a frag and it shows up healthy and colored nice, encrusting, I’m going back for more

 

[bluemon]

I see your point, but keep in mind A potential loss of profit is not a cost. The coral I bought is sold and is profit. Rotating it out for another that may or may not sell, or even survive is a risk not a guarantee. Sending a coral unhealed or browned out is another risk, as it may need to be refunded.

It doesn’t cost them money to hold fresh frags in a system that’s already running. It’s even make them money, because when I buy a frag and it shows up healthy and colored nice, encrusting, I’m going back for more

It definitely is a cost in terms of the economics of it, hence the term opportunity COST.

Imagine a dealership selling cars. If they were forced to keep their new cars in the lot for two weeks before selling instead of selling them as they come in immediately, that’s a massive loss in profit as space is limited. Again this is all under the assumption that the cars/corals are selling at a steady predictable rate, and that the two weeks healing time isn’t making the product more appealing / worth charging more for to offset opportunity cost.

Again, just playing devils advocate as to why chop shops do this.

 

[TX_REEF]

To start I’d like to define a chop shop. A
Chop shop is vender who will buy wholesale that has just been imported. They then take these corals and chop them up and glue them to frags to sell within a week or two.

I’ve been in the hobby for quite some time now and I’ve recently noticed that the amount of shops that sell healthy corals are actually pretty low. For every 30
Chop shops there is about 1 shop selling true healthy aquaculture corals.

The reason I think this needs to be talked about more is because new hobbyists have a lot to learn. Buying your first coral is a big deal and it should be a healthy specimen.
Lots of beginners will buy from a chop shop
Because it’s the cheapest option.

The problem is these corals have taken on a bunch of stress in the last month. Here is the breakdown.
1. Taken from the ocean (mariculture or wild specimens; first set of parameters)

2. Held in a tank until a wholesaler places an order (2nd set of Parameters; 1st dip)

3. Sent to a wholesaler who will usually dip and get ready to go to a business( 3rd set of parameters, 1st or second shipment, and second dip)

4. Sent to a business to get chopped up and fragged (4th set of parameters, 2nd or thirds shipment, and 3rd dip). Most of these businesses are inexperienced and want to move these corals
Fast so they don’t lose them in their systems

5. Shipped to the consumer (5th set of parameters, 3/4 shipment, 4th dip)

This entire process can happen in less than a month. I decided to write this up because I’ve been witnessing this more and more. I actually just seen a shop receive a coral(Acan) chop it up and repost the frags for sale all within 2 days. Corals need to heal and acclimate.

I just wanted to start a thread to get some other input and to make others aware. This hobby isn’t easy and it’s expensive; I just want to help others anyway I can. Please be careful of who you buy from these days!

I absolutely agree. I think it’s a shame that most vendors have to sell majority wild caught corals in the first place. I personally am going live on an aquaculture room in my home (which will be my new build thread) to try to combat this, at least to the best of my ability at the limited scale I can.

“Chopping” as you explained it is where the fastest and most consistent profit is, unfortunately.

 

[elysics]

What's worse for "the hobby?" Scaring off people that aren't determined enough to carry on through early coral loss, or scaring off people that don't like initial high price tags?

Churning people through with maricultured stuff and having them leave at the first sign of loss is more sustainable than having them last a bit longer on tank grown stuff but then leave at the next crash anyway.

I'd argue that having them leave the hobby faster and for less money, is better for the hobby.

And people that survive the churn either stop buying from those places or figure out how to make the frags survive

 

[VintageReefer]

It definitely is a cost in terms of the economics of it, hence the term opportunity COST.

Imagine a dealership selling cars. If they were forced to keep their new cars in the lot for two weeks before selling instead of selling them as they come in immediately, that’s a massive loss in profit as space is limited. Again this is all under the assumption that the cars/corals are selling at a steady predictable rate, and that the two weeks healing time isn’t making the product more appealing / worth charging more for to offset opportunity cost.

Again, just playing devils advocate as to why chop shops do this.

I get it. But chop shops usually have coral farms or facilities with tons of holding tanks. They would sell more and could ask more if the coral condition was a little better, and get better return rates. They could even charge for it. 10$ to have us hold your order for 2 extra weeks while it recovers. I’m sure people would like to have the option

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

What's worse for "the hobby?" Scaring off people that aren't determined enough to carry on through early coral loss, or scaring off people that don't like initial high price tags?

Churning people through with maricultured stuff and having them leave at the first sign of loss is more sustainable than having them last a bit longer on tank grown stuff but then leave at the next crash anyway.

I'd argue that having them leave the hobby faster and for less money, is better for the hobby.

And people that survive the churn either stop buying from those places or figure out how to make the frags survive

I see your point, but I feel like that argument is bias toward a shops opinion. From a profit standpoint, yes fast return is better. From a customers stand point the option of what is better is clearly the healthier corals.
My point is that these shops don’t give the corals enough time to heal and acclimate. Regardless of how seasoned of a hobbyist someone may be there is a chance of bacterial infection or damage that is beyond repair.

 

[LovinlifeinGuam]

I see your point, but I feel like that argument is bias toward a shops opinion. From a profit standpoint, yes fast return is better. From a customers stand point the option of what is better is clearly the healthier corals.
My point is that these shops don’t give the corals enough time to heal and acclimate. Regardless of how seasoned of a hobbyist someone may be there is a chance of bacterial infection or damage that is beyond repair.

The only solution is for people to better educate themselves before making purchases. That doesn't seem remotely realistic in this hobby. Ethical or not, chop shops aren't forcing anyone to buy from them.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

What I see the most with shops is the fact they will buy stuff for cheap and if it remotely looks like a high end frag they will slap that price on it. And if it is something that is considered "fraggable", they will cut it into micro pieces and sell for almost as high. Remember the single polyp sps phase. I haven't seen much but some vendors were fragging these "high" end sps (which they really weren't) to only include a single polyp or 2 and selling them for hundreds. Some are still doing this and you know survival on those is super low.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

The only solution is for people to better educate themselves before making purchases. That doesn't seem remotely realistic in this hobby. Ethical or not, chop shops aren't forcing anyone to buy from them.

Yes I’m not trying to bash anyone really I just want to spread awareness. I also learned that most chop shops end up closing doors overtime. I think another issue most have is sustaining a thriving system. The big difference between these venders and aquaculture vendors is the knowledge about reefing and how to make them thrive rather just survive for another month.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

What I see the most with shops is the fact they will buy stuff for cheap and if it remotely looks like a high end frag they will slap that price on it. And if it is something that is considered "fraggable", they will cut it into micro pieces and sell for almost as high. Remember the single polyp sps phase. I haven't seen much but some vendors were fragging these "high" end sps (which they really weren't) to only include a single polyp or 2 and selling them for hundreds. Some are still doing this and you know survival on those is super low.

Ya and honestly even reputable shops will do this. I won’t knock it as sps are extremely hard even for seasoned hobbyist. But I agree. These types of selling techniques do make it harder for beginning hobbyists.

 

[CHSUB]

It is common and very bad…however easy to spot if you visit the store. I only trust maybe 2 or 3 online vendors.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Ya and honestly even reputable shops will do this. I won’t knock it as sps are extremely hard even for seasoned hobbyist. But I agree. These types of selling techniques do make it harder for beginning hobbyists.

My lfs has always kept prices reasonable. I have found it is not worth me to order online or ship, unless a true sale, as my locals regular price beats even sale prices. There are a few exceptions but usually it's a very unique coral that is a good luck finding it elsewhere.

We also have to remember a business is about making money not about long term care. What can we do to maximize profits? What shortcuts can we take to keep costs low? How can we stretch our inventory? How do we get new customers, and finally the last is how do we keep them coming back? This puts coral care at the bottom of the list. They just need to look pretty for the picture and we can just edit to make it look better. Some places run stores like a bad used car lot. Just make it look pretty and move just enough to get it off the lot.

Even most sales I have seen aren't sales and are same price as normal. Even from some well known shops.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Where exactly do you folks think most coral in the hobby comes from? There is very little of it grown out fully in “farm” tanks and “fragged” from a “mother” colony and then grown out further on the plug — before being sold to you.

If that were the primary model, few of us would have, or could afford coral and there would be virtually no vendors in the market. High overhead, extremely slow inventory renewal and massive farms with unfathomable risk of “crop” failure.

The difference now and a decade ago? The same “colony” plucked from the ocean and sent to your LFS is now sent to the “chop shop” where it spends some time being fragged and maybe being dipped and observed. There is more elapsed time and eyes on it from ocean to tank than there was before.

Even large coral vendors who do grow out “mother” colonies to frag, still primarily trade in coral that they buy and frag. Most couldn’t survive otherwise… and you couldn’t afford their coral if they could.

 

[CHSUB]

Where exactly do you folks think most coral comes from? There is very little of it grown out fully in a “farm” tanks and “fragged” from a “mother” colony and then grown out further on the plug — before being sold to you.

If that were the primary model, few of us would have, or could afford coral and there would be virtually no vendors in the market. High overhead, extremely slow inventory renewal and massive farms with unfathomable risk of “crop” failure.

WWC and Tidal Gardens….