Copper treatment

[kandymann]

@Humblefish
If I QT fish for 30 days using cupramine seachem at the recommended therapeutic levels, does copper breakdown and diminish its effectiveness over the course of 30 days without any type of filtration? I am confused as to why I need to test the levels daily if I am not performing water changes and not using filtration. Not saying I would not do water changes but I was curious why I needed to test daily if water level was staying the same. Thank you for the response.

 

[Brew12]

@Humblefish
If I QT fish for 30 days using cupramine seachem at the recommended therapeutic levels, does copper breakdown and diminish its effectiveness over the course of 30 days without any type of filtration? I am confused as to why I need to test the levels daily if I am not performing water changes and not using filtration. Not saying I would not do water changes but I was curious why I needed to test daily if water level was staying the same. Thank you for the response.

Copper does not break down over time. The concern is that some filter media may absorb it and pull it out of the water. I'm hoping you are using some filtration with either a sponge or floss to give the nitrifying bacteria a place to grow and process ammonia. My experience is that very little copper is absorbed by sponges or floss. Some people use ceramic media in their HOB filters on a QT system and these can pull a noticeable amount of copper out of the water. Daily testing is very important for people with using this, at least for the first few days. I test at least daily for the first few days but then test only once ever few days if everything looks stable.

 

[jeff williams]

In my qt cupramine is a bit of work getting it to thereputic levels , once there it is stable however there are things that affect it like wc's evaporation ect

 

[kandymann]

Copper does not break down over time. The concern is that some filter media may absorb it and pull it out of the water. I'm hoping you are using some filtration with either a sponge or floss to give the nitrifying bacteria a place to grow and process ammonia. My experience is that very little copper is absorbed by sponges or floss. Some people use ceramic media in their HOB filters on a QT system and these can pull a noticeable amount of copper out of the water. Daily testing is very important for people with using this, at least for the first few days. I test at least daily for the first few days but then test only once ever few days if everything looks stable.

Thanks for the reply. I just perform water changes.

 

[Brew12]

Thanks for the reply. I just perform water changes.

Interesting!

You should be fine testing it after each water change then.

 

[Humblefish]

Copper does not break down over time. The concern is that some filter media may absorb it and pull it out of the water. I'm hoping you are using some filtration with either a sponge or floss to give the nitrifying bacteria a place to grow and process ammonia. My experience is that very little copper is absorbed by sponges or floss. Some people use ceramic media in their HOB filters on a QT system and these can pull a noticeable amount of copper out of the water. Daily testing is very important for people with using this, at least for the first few days. I test at least daily for the first few days but then test only once ever few days if everything looks stable.

+1 Daily testing is more important for those who know they are using absorbable media w/copper. However, it's also a good idea to do right after a water change or even on a daily basis if you don't mind incorporating it into your routine. All it takes is for the copper level to dip slightly below therapeutic to allow one free swimmer to possibly survive long enough to find & infect a fish.

 

[Radman73]

Okay, I must have missed it somewhere. What is the reason that you can move fish out of copper at 14 days to a sterile QT but if you miss that narrow window you must wait until day 30? Does it have to deal with the lifecycle of something? I'm not opposed to the idea, just want to understand why.

 

[Maritimer]

I honestly think that if you're going to move the fish to a second QT, any time from 14 days on will be OK - the 30 day treatment is for those who'll be leaving their fish in the _same_ QT for the duration, not moving them to a second tank at all.

~Bruce

 

[Humblefish]

Okay, I must have missed it somewhere. What is the reason that you can move fish out of copper at 14 days to a sterile QT but if you miss that narrow window you must wait until day 30? Does it have to deal with the lifecycle of something? I'm not opposed to the idea, just want to understand why.

A fish with ich or velvet will only be infected with trophonts for 7 days max. So, once copper (or CP) has reached therapeutic, a 7 day countdown can begin so you'll know the fish is parasite free and the presence of copper/CP shields said fish from reinfection. At this point, your primary concern in the QT is unhatched tomonts encysted to the glass, heater, pumps, etc. which copper does not kill.

So why not transfer the fish away from this threat? Into another QT where tomonts are not present? If copper/CP is at therapeutic, and has remained therapeutic the entire time, then any released free swimmers will have been disabled before they can reach the fish. I.E. The shield has held.

While 7 days is technically sufficient, I prefer a 10-14 day window before transferring to have a smaller margin of error. It goes without saying that this method is very unforgiving if you happen to make a mistake, like letting your copper level dip slightly below therapeutic. ;Sour

 

[Radman73]

A fish with ich or velvet will only be infected with trophonts for 7 days max. So, once copper (or CP) has reached therapeutic, a 7 day countdown can begin so you'll know the fish is parasite free and the presence of copper/CP shields said fish from reinfection. At this point, your primary concern in the QT is unhatched tomonts encysted to the glass, heater, pumps, etc. which copper does not kill.

So why not transfer the fish away from this threat? Into another QT where tomonts are not present? If copper/CP is at therapeutic, and has remained therapeutic the entire time, then any released free swimmers will have been disabled before they can reach the fish. I.E. The shield has held.

While 7 days is technically sufficient, I prefer a 10-14 day window before transferring to have a smaller margin of error. It goes without saying that this method is very unforgiving if you happen to make a mistake, like letting your copper level dip slightly below therapeutic. ;Sour

Thank you for the explanation. So, by going 14 days, or more, you're simply increasing the chance that you maintained therapeutic level for at least one 7 day stretch. Think I'm safe to move them this weekend. I tested daily for the first several days and then every 2-3 days or after a water change since and it's always been a solid, consistent reading.

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[4FordFamily]

Some common errors - sharing arms with a tank infected with ich (if you have multiple tanks or even qts as I do), sharing nets, drain hoses, buckets, hoses you pump water from a reservoir (backfilling hoses with water from a tank not known to be parasite “sterile”, using filter media or anything wet from an infected tank, etc.

I’ve made all of these errors. In truth, the most shocking was my arm. I thought a soapy rinse and wash in antibacterial soap would do the trick. Nope. Now I wash arm and hand very thoroughly and then dry t entirely then let air dry some time before reaching in a tank that’s either parasite-free or further along in the copper process. Right now between @HotRockTarBaby and I (local good friends immersed deep in this hobby) we have three fish quarantines full of fish, two coral and invert QTs, and an invert only QT. It’s pretty out of control, really. But we are both stocking 180 gallon tanks full of fish and coral.

Sharing drain hoses and hoses to pump water from my storage to my QT infected two tanks before I figured it out.

Trial and error! Learn from my ignorance! :)

 

[Radman73]

Some common errors - sharing arms with a tank infected with ich (if you have multiple tanks or even qts as I do), sharing nets, drain hoses, buckets, hoses you pump water from a reservoir (backfilling hoses with water from a tank not known to be parasite “sterile”, using filter media or anything wet from an infected tank, etc.

I’ve made all of these errors. In truth, the most shocking was my arm. I thought a soapy rinse and wash in antibacterial soap would do the trick. Nope. Now I wash arm and hand very thoroughly and then dry t entirely then let air dry some time before reaching in a tank that’s either parasite-free or further along in the copper process.

Sharing drain hoses and hoses to pump water from my storage to my QT infected two tanks before I figured it out.

Trial and error! Learn from my ignorance! :)

I have tried very hard to be mindful of cross contamination as I did have 2 QT's up and running. Sadly, the Anthias all perished rather quickly. I keep a spray bottle of 50/50 water and vinegar handy to clean any equimpent whether it could be potentially be used between tanks or not. Figure better safe than sorry. Interesting about the arms. I'm fairly anal about washing and drying anyway. Thanks for sharing!

 

[PeterG]

I’d like some clarification on dosing with Cupramine please. The directions state:

“If the bottle has a dropper cap, use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 US gallons) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat. On non-dropper caps, each inner ring is 1 mL. In freshwater use half dose. Final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L (0.25 mg/L in freshwater). Leave at this concentration for 14 days.”

If I understand correctly it takes two doses of 20 drops/10.5gal to reach therapeutic level of 0.5mg/l.
If my logic is sound then when I do a water change I would double the dosage to keep the tank at the therapeutic level. Is this correct?

Ex: doing a 10.5 gal water change add 40 drops vs the 20 drop recommended dose.

 

[Brew12]

I’d like some clarification on dosing with Cupramine please. The directions state:

“If the bottle has a dropper cap, use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 US gallons) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat. On non-dropper caps, each inner ring is 1 mL. In freshwater use half dose. Final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L (0.25 mg/L in freshwater). Leave at this concentration for 14 days.”

If I understand correctly it takes two doses of 20 drops/10.5gal to reach therapeutic level of 0.5mg/l.
If my logic is sound then when I do a water change I would double the dosage to keep the tank at the therapeutic level. Is this correct?

Ex: doing a 10.5 gal water change add 40 drops vs the 20 drop recommended dose.

Yes, that is correct.

The reason that the dosing is done this way is to give the fish a chance to adjust to the copper before reaching the full amount.

 

[PeterG]

Yes, that is correct.

The reason that the dosing is done this way is to give the fish a chance to adjust to the copper before reaching the full amount.

Thanks Brew. Explains why my test reading looked low.

 

[Nopy117]

Are there any proven cases of a trophont staying on a fish for longer than 14 days? If not, then wouldent a 14 day treatment of 0.5 copper be sufficient for all fish as long as you have another ich free system to transfer them too (never lowering copper in the QT)

30 days then lowering it will open up chances of a long life cycle strain to just re infect once the copper level drops back down?

Correct me if I’m wrong, thanks.

 

[Humblefish]

Are there any proven cases of a trophont staying on a fish for longer than 14 days? If not, then wouldent a 14 day treatment of 0.5 copper be sufficient for all fish as long as you have another ich free system to transfer them too (never lowering copper in the QT)

30 days then lowering it will open up chances of a long life cycle strain to just re infect once the copper level drops back down?

Correct me if I’m wrong, thanks.

In fact, I have never seen a study where ich trophonts remained on a fish for longer than 7 days. So, 10-14 days and then a transfer should be more than sufficient. Provided the following:

1. The 10-14 day countdown doesn't begin until you have reached full therapeutic copper. That being 0.4-0.5ppm when using ionic copper (e.g. Cupramine); 1.5-2.0ppm when using chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power).
2. The copper level remains therapeutic for the entire 10-14 day period (very important). If it dips even slightly (for even a second) then all bets are off. :eek:
3. The QT you transfer the fish into should have nothing to do with the QT you are treating the fish in. Different tank, new water, all new equipment, nothing can be reused or shared between them. Transfer just the fish, nothing else.
4. The QT you transfer the fish into should be at least 10 feet away from the original QT: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

 

[Nopy117]

In fact, I have never seen a study where ich trophonts remained on a fish for longer than 7 days. So, 10-14 days and then a transfer should be more than sufficient. Provided the following:

1. The 10-14 day countdown doesn't begin until you have reached full therapeutic copper. That being 0.4-0.5ppm when using ionic copper (e.g. Cupramine); 1.5-2.0ppm when using chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power).
2. The copper level remains therapeutic for the entire 10-14 day period (very important). If it dips even slightly (for even a second) then all bets are off. :eek:
3. The QT you transfer the fish into should have nothing to do with the QT you are treating the fish in. Different tank, new water, all new equipment, nothing can be reused or shared between them. Transfer just the fish, nothing else.
4. The QT you transfer the fish into should be at least 10 feet away from the original QT: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

Excellent news, if the aquarist knows that the only ailment the fish has is ich, would a transfer straight into the DT be a viable option? (As long as the DT has either gone fallow for 76 days or doesn’t have ich in it to begin with)

 

[Humblefish]

Excellent news, if the aquarist knows that the only ailment the fish has is ich, would a transfer straight into the DT be a viable option? (As long as the DT has either gone fallow for 76 days or doesn’t have ich in it to begin with)

I would still prefer to QT & observe before placing said fish into my DT. To err is human, and the second QT can provide a buffer just in case a mistake is made.

 

[Skep18]

View attachment 790944

This is what I was referring to http://www.marinedepot.com/Poly_Fil...Media-Poly_Bio_Marine-PB1111-FIFMMEPM-vi.html

So just to be clear, only this brand of pad is what is being referred to that will absorb copper?

I ask as I have some "Imagitarium Filter Pad" pieces in my tank for bacteria surface area. I'll test copper to make sure I maintain levels but I just wanted to understand.

View attachment 790946

Some common errors - sharing arms with a tank infected with ich (if you have multiple tanks or even qts as I do), sharing nets, drain hoses, buckets, hoses you pump water from a reservoir (backfilling hoses with water from a tank not known to be parasite “sterile”, using filter media or anything wet from an infected tank, etc.

I’ve made all of these errors. In truth, the most shocking was my arm. I thought a soapy rinse and wash in antibacterial soap would do the trick. Nope. Now I wash arm and hand very thoroughly and then dry t entirely then let air dry some time before reaching in a tank that’s either parasite-free or further along in the copper process. Right now between @HotRockTarBaby and I (local good friends immersed deep in this hobby) we have three fish quarantines full of fish, two coral and invert QTs, and an invert only QT. It’s pretty out of control, really. But we are both stocking 180 gallon tanks full of fish and coral.

Sharing drain hoses and hoses to pump water from my storage to my QT infected two tanks before I figured it out.

Trial and error! Learn from my ignorance! :)

OMG, you just blew my mind... I'm just getting started and am setting up a second QT now for a second batch of fish inc. I know to keep things separate but I bet without this, I'd probably touch both tanks somehow. This isn't even mentioning the DT...

In the case of test kits, are you supposed to have a kit for each QT?

On that subject, is it known how to kill the tomont (or any other at-risk) form or otherwise completely decontaminate equipment to make it safe for use on another tank???