Coppersafe dosage incorrect on bottle?

[drawman]

Geez, can't we just sign a liability waiver or something??

I totally get it though. When I tried to get a script I totally felt like a drugseeker lol. Whenever I have patients coming in requesting medication the immediate reaction is abuse. The fact that we can't bring fish in and want to use it prophylactically makes it even tougher for us. I think we are in a tough grey area as reefkeepers and veterinarian care just isn't at the point where it is fully functional for us yet. It's too bad we can't get an OTC variant that would be unable to be consumed by humans...say what they do to rubbing alcohol.

 

[Jeffdstafford]

I totally get it though. When I tried to get a script I totally felt like a drugseeker lol.

Ha, yeah when they were grilling me with questions about it I felt the same way

 

[Humblefish]

Humble, how did you get an Rx for the CP?

I've got friends in low places...

 

[Jeffdstafford]

Haha, I guess I'm going to have to resort to faking Malaria symptoms to get some!

 

[Humblefish]

Haha, I guess I'm going to have to resort to faking Malaria symptoms to get some!

I foresee a safari to Africa in your future.

 

[Jeffdstafford]

I foresee a safari to Africa in your future.

Ha, my fish sure better appreciate the lengths I go to so they can live a comfortable life!

 

[Humblefish]

Ha, my fish sure better appreciate the lengths I go to so they can live a comfortable life!

When big mama clownfish bites the hand that feeds it, I just tell myself it's a love peck.

 

[Smo]

I am late catching this thread but it really peaked my interest since I am treating three fish in a 20 gal long QT for the first time with Coppersafe and using an API copper test kit. In my case, I have 18 gallons of water and expected to reach a therapeutic level after adding 22.5 ml (5 ml / 4 gal). But I was already showing 2.0 ppm on the API card after only 18 ml of Coppersafe. I spread this out over several days and compensated for partial water changes.

This suggests either the Coppersafe I have is more potent or the test kit is overly sensitive. Since the greatest variability here is likely the test procedure I wanted to be sure I am using the test kit correctly. Not clear in the instructions but I think you need to elevate the vial about 1/2" or so above the paper card as you look thru the vial vertically--correct? Reflected light needs to come up thru the bottom of the vial. If you rest the vial directly on the paper it will look darker in color.

Out of curiosity, I added 2 ml additional to the tank and tested after 30 minutes of good circulation with a power head and two HOB filters. I couldn't see much difference, still closest to the 2.0 ppm color dot. So perhaps the issue with the API test kit is that the color changes are not linear as you increase towards the therapeutic level, i.e., a fairly wide range of Coppersafe concentration in the water tests similarly.

So, assuming multiple batches of Coppersafe are reasonably consistent, (2.2%) as well as API test kits, folks may actually be overdosing by not slowly backing into the therapeutic range and comparing test results with expected (calculated) Cu concentrations.

 

[Empress]

Maybe Humblefish can buy CP in bulk and sell it to only members of R2R!!! We promise not to get HF into trouble. If he goes to jail, I will personally bail him out. [emoji57]

 

[Humblefish]

Maybe Humblefish can buy CP in bulk and sell it to only members of R2R!!! We promise not to get HF into trouble. If he goes to jail, I will personally bail him out. [emoji57]

HA!

 

[redfishbluefish]

Isn't this the stuff HERE?

They do state that it's 99.9 % pure.

 

[Humblefish]

Isn't this the stuff HERE?

They do state that it's 99.9 % pure.

That is CP originally obtained from Fishman Chemical which was sourced from China. However, I'd be curious to know where the "Certificate of Analysis" comes from.

 

[Empress]

That is CP originally obtained from Fishman Chemical which was sourced from China. However, I'd be curious to know where the "Certificate of Analysis" comes from.

How DO you know all this stuff? [emoji217]

 

[Humblefish]

How DO you know all this stuff? [emoji217]

The ebay seller hates my guts for knowing this stuff.

 

[drawman]

Well I just did a preliminary test with the new test kit and got a very yellow reading that still appears to be 1.0ppm for me. The expiration dates on the two test kits are 3/18 (older) and 4/19 (newer) and the older one was just purchased a couple of months ago. Both are obviously from different lot numbers as well. I've had a really busy week and will be leaving for the weekend and the fact that I'm somewhat new to this test kit (but nowhere new to aquarium testing overall) I think I need to play around with it more to see if there is a difference with my bottle of coppersafe.

When I get back next week I think I'll set up a test similar to brew12 by adding coppersafe from my bottle to a gallon of saltwater at different concentrations to see if I can make out set points on both test kits (ie 1.0ppm, 2.0ppm, 4.0ppm, as well as what the recommended dose gives me).

Both fish are still looking good and eating fine . Once I get a handle on this I will add more copper to their QT to get to a therapeutic level.

 

[sricorals]

Can I add healthy fish to a tank with 2.0ppm coppersafe mixed in? would it harm the healthy fish?
Thanks

 

[Brew12]

Can I add healthy fish to a tank with 2.0ppm coppersafe mixed in? would it harm the healthy fish?
Thanks

It is much better to acclimate the fish to copper slowly. Preferably over several days.

 

[melypr1985]

Can I add healthy fish to a tank with 2.0ppm coppersafe mixed in? would it harm the healthy fish?
Thanks

It's best not to introduce fish into full therapeutic levels of copper. There are good amount of fish that need to have copper levels raise slowly so as not to shock them.

 

[drawman]

So finally had a little bit of time to do so more testing on this bottle. I setup a gallon of water exactly as @Brew12 did. I added 5 drops (which should be equivalent to .25mL) of Coppersafe and tested using both kits. It was done under fluorescent bathroom light. Here are my results.

5 drops/gallon - test is very yellow and hard to differentiate...inconclusive
10 drops/gallon - more yellow looks like 1.0ppm
15 drops/gallon - starting to brown slightly looks between 1.0 and 2.0...let's say 1.5ppm
20 drops/gallon - looks rather close to 2.0ppm
25 drops/gallon - looks closer to 4.0ppm but likely somewhere in between
30 drops/gallon - looks like 4.0ppm spot on

I would say I am relatively confident to the 15 and 20 drops/gallon measurements. 15 drops=.75mL and 20 drops=1mL roughly. That said I just tested my pipette and it took about 23 drops to get to 1mL. So let's take that out of the equation for now. Recommended dose is about 12.5mL/10 gallons. 7.5mL/10 gallons would give me 1.5ppm (per my testing) and 10mL/10 gallons would give me 2.0ppm (per my testing).

So I think my bottle is still on the strong side but maybe others can comment. For me it is harder to distinguish results on the high and low ends of this test kit under my fluorescent light (maybe natural window light is better?). Also the two kits seem to be in line with each other.

 

[Humblefish]

To add to this conversation, below is a recent email exchange I had with Fritz about Coppersafe:

First my email to them:

To Whom It May Concern:

I have a couple of questions regarding two of your products.

The first issue regards Coppersafe; you state this right on your website: http://fritzaquatics.com/product/coppersafe/

The unique formulation of Coppersafe® solution maintains a total copper level of .15 ppm to .20 ppm when used as directed.

From years of use I know the correct therapeutic level of chelated copper to be 1.5 to 2.0 ppm. The above "typo" is being recirculated all over the Internet causing confusion.

I'd also like to know what percentage of Formaldehyde is found in Quick Cure. In my experience 37% formaldehyde is usually required in order for the product to be effective for clearing Brooklynella, stubborn worms, and to provide temporary relief for Amyloodinium (velvet) & Uronema.

Kind regards,
Bobby

And now their response:

Good morning Bobby,

With regard to Quick Cure, yes, it is formulated with 37% formaldehyde.

Your question regarding Coppersafe is a bit more complex. Allow me to explain.

While Fritz was the private label manufacturer of Coppersafe for Sergeants from 2007 onwards, Fritz was not privy to their technical information or product history. Sergeants was purchased by Perrigo and they decided to discontinue all aquatic products. Fritz then acted to obtain rights to the Mardel product line including Coppersafe. When this was obtained Fritz had a formula, QC/QA process for raw materials and finished goods, a consumer usage database but no technical history or product development details.

In the absence of hard data, Fritz elected to utilize the standard recommended dosage for the public aquarium/zoo and aquaculture industries which is 0.15 -.20 mg/l or ppm (Noga E. 2010. Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. 2nd Ed. Ames (IA): Wiley-Blackwell. p. 391-393.) This was done to protect consumers and prevent overdoses. We also began a research program into chelated copper sulfate pentahydrate. We also examined the Customer Service databases provided to us by Sergeants; it is clear that this formulation, which has been unchanged for decades, is one of the safest products available on the market.

Our research has determined that when used per label directions Coppersafe will yield a copper level of 1.16 to 1.17 ppm. At this level there are no fish mortalities in controlled experiments. Gill damage is not observed in treated fish exposed to this dosage level. This is due to the sophisticated chelating agent used on the formula.

Coppersafe outperforms other brands of chelated copper on the market in several key areas:

· No other product matches its efficacy against a wide range of parasites

· No other product maintains stable copper levels for up to four weeks

· Few other chelated coppers remain stable when UV sterilization or Ozone are in use

We have also discovered that some of the lower end copper test kits on the market do not produce accurate results for either free or total copper with Coppersafe (and likely other brands of copper on the aquarium market).

At the current time a detailed technical data sheet is being written for Coppersafe detailing all the above information in a formal manner. I’m not sure when this will be released as it has several review stages to go through before publication on our website and release to the public.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Andy

Andy Ternay / Technical Sales Manager Fritz Specialty Division / [email protected] / (972) 329-8878 / Fritz Industries, Inc.

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My follow-up email, which has so far gone unanswered:

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your response. That is great news about Quick Cure, and I will begin recommending that product for formalin use.

However, I am still confused about what the proper therapeutic range should be for Coppersafe. What is the minimum & maximum therapeutic dosages? You said when used as directed, Coppersafe will yield a concentration of 1.16 - 1.17 ppm. Has that concentration been tested on ich theronts and velvet dinospores? If so, what was the kill rate?

I promote Coppersafe quite a bit over Cupramine, because I believe it to be a safer form of copper. However, I have been telling people I advise that the proper therapeutic range for Coppersafe is 1.5 - 2.0 ppm. Am I telling them to overdose? Would a lower therapeutic level still be 100% effective?

Bobby