Coppersafe dosage incorrect on bottle?

[drawman]

To add to this conversation, below is a recent email exchange I had with Fritz about Coppersafe:

First my email to them:

To Whom It May Concern:

I have a couple of questions regarding two of your products.

The first issue regards Coppersafe; you state this right on your website: http://fritzaquatics.com/product/coppersafe/

From years of use I know the correct therapeutic level of chelated copper to be 1.5 to 2.0 ppm. The above "typo" is being recirculated all over the Internet causing confusion.

I'd also like to know what percentage of Formaldehyde is found in Quick Cure. In my experience 37% formaldehyde is usually required in order for the product to be effective for clearing Brooklynella, stubborn worms, and to provide temporary relief for Amyloodinium (velvet) & Uronema.

Kind regards,
Bobby

And now their response:

Good morning Bobby,

With regard to Quick Cure, yes, it is formulated with 37% formaldehyde.

Your question regarding Coppersafe is a bit more complex. Allow me to explain.

While Fritz was the private label manufacturer of Coppersafe for Sergeants from 2007 onwards, Fritz was not privy to their technical information or product history. Sergeants was purchased by Perrigo and they decided to discontinue all aquatic products. Fritz then acted to obtain rights to the Mardel product line including Coppersafe. When this was obtained Fritz had a formula, QC/QA process for raw materials and finished goods, a consumer usage database but no technical history or product development details.

In the absence of hard data, Fritz elected to utilize the standard recommended dosage for the public aquarium/zoo and aquaculture industries which is 0.15 -.20 mg/l or ppm (Noga E. 2010. Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. 2nd Ed. Ames (IA): Wiley-Blackwell. p. 391-393.) This was done to protect consumers and prevent overdoses. We also began a research program into chelated copper sulfate pentahydrate. We also examined the Customer Service databases provided to us by Sergeants; it is clear that this formulation, which has been unchanged for decades, is one of the safest products available on the market.

Our research has determined that when used per label directions Coppersafe will yield a copper level of 1.16 to 1.17 ppm. At this level there are no fish mortalities in controlled experiments. Gill damage is not observed in treated fish exposed to this dosage level. This is due to the sophisticated chelating agent used on the formula.

Coppersafe outperforms other brands of chelated copper on the market in several key areas:

· No other product matches its efficacy against a wide range of parasites

· No other product maintains stable copper levels for up to four weeks

· Few other chelated coppers remain stable when UV sterilization or Ozone are in use

We have also discovered that some of the lower end copper test kits on the market do not produce accurate results for either free or total copper with Coppersafe (and likely other brands of copper on the aquarium market).

At the current time a detailed technical data sheet is being written for Coppersafe detailing all the above information in a formal manner. I’m not sure when this will be released as it has several review stages to go through before publication on our website and release to the public.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Andy

Andy Ternay / Technical Sales Manager Fritz Specialty Division / [email protected] / (972) 329-8878 / Fritz Industries, Inc.

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My follow-up email, which has so far gone unanswered:

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your response. That is great news about Quick Cure, and I will begin recommending that product for formalin use.

However, I am still confused about what the proper therapeutic range should be for Coppersafe. What is the minimum & maximum therapeutic dosages? You said when used as directed, Coppersafe will yield a concentration of 1.16 - 1.17 ppm. Has that concentration been tested on ich theronts and velvet dinospores? If so, what was the kill rate?

I promote Coppersafe quite a bit over Cupramine, because I believe it to be a safer form of copper. However, I have been telling people I advise that the proper therapeutic range for Coppersafe is 1.5 - 2.0 ppm. Am I telling them to overdose? Would a lower therapeutic level still be 100% effective?

Bobby

Thanks Humble for emailing we all appreciate your time on this!

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks Humble for emailing we all appreciate your time on this!

You're welcome; however I get the feeling they are "done" answering my very specific questions. I guess I just rub people the wrong way.

 

[melypr1985]

You're welcome; however I get the feeling they are "done" answering my very specific questions. I guess I just rub people the wrong way.

Nah.. they are just intimidated since they're probably used to answering questions like "how do i use this?" or "is this safe".

 

[drawman]

You're welcome; however I get the feeling they are "done" answering my very specific questions. I guess I just rub people the wrong way.

Good keep it up

I was trying to see if I could access that book online that they cited. 0.15-0.20ppm sounds like a sure fire way to suppress ich and velvet and get burned later but certainly I have done zero research on the matter.

 

[Humblefish]

Good keep it up

I was trying to see if I could access that book online that they cited. 0.15-0.20ppm sounds like a sure fire way to suppress ich and velvet and get burned later but certainly I have done zero research on the matter.

0.15-0.20ppm is the therapeutic range for copper sulfate pentahydrate, which is still used by wholesalers/collectors and public aquariums/research institutions.

Chelated copper is a very different animal with a much higher therapeutic range. The only other brand I am aware of recommends treating at 2.5 ppm: http://gocopperpower.com/assets/COPPER_POWER_FOR_SALT54256.pdf

 

[Valkyrie]

I asked my LFS guy if he used Coppersafe in his tanks, since he sells it. He said he did. I asked him what he kept his copper level at and his answer was 0.12 to 0.15ppm. "That's more than sufficient for any fish," he said. This is really quite frustrating. I've known this business for 15 years and trusted the owner. Explicitly. He's the one that handed me the Coppersafe when I needed it. He's the one that told me that I had to use the API copper test kit because it's chelated copper. Today I told my husband that I've decided not to buy any fish from him anymore. Inverts or coral, sure, but not fish. Never again. I'll drive the 2 hours it takes to get to a reef store that I trust.

The Fritz company needs to pull their heads out and stop acting like it's the end of the world if they were wrong or made a mistake. It's a giant pet peeve of mine. Being defensive, even if it's a passive aggressive manner like not answering a customer's questions, only makes them look petty.

 

[Smo]

Hear your frustration, but now you have the knowledge to go forward and be successful in this hobby. That's something to be thankful for.

 

[Humblefish]

FWIW; it was Mardel/Sergeants who first recommended using Coppersafe at 1.5 - 2.0 ppm. It was never right on the bottle, but in the instructions that came with it inside the little box. We used Coppersafe exclusively back when I did maintenance 15-20 years ago (man, saying that makes me feel old ).

So the only reason (I can think of) which would warrant a change is if Fritz changed the formulation. Which they indicated in their email to me that they have not.

I think in the future I will begin experimenting with their competitor, Copper Power.

 

[drawman]

FWIW; it was Mardel/Sergeants who first recommended using Coppersafe at 1.5 - 2.0 ppm. It was never right on the bottle, but in the instructions that came with it inside the little box. We used Coppersafe exclusively back when I did maintenance 15-20 years ago (man, saying that makes me feel old ).

So the only reason (I can think of) which would warrant a change is if Fritz changed the formulation. Which they indicated in their email to me that they have not.

I think in the future I will begin experimenting with their competitor, Copper Power.

Well hopefully it still works well in the 1.5-2.0ppm range for everyone and I guess time will tell. It just shows the importance of testing and ramping up slowly with copper.

 

[Smo]

My three surviving fish have surpassed the two week point in a 2.0 ppm concentration of Coppersafe. I knew I had Ich and likely Brook and/or flukes. (I performed other treatments for the latter.) The Percula, Sailfin Tang and Melenurus Wrasse are all looking great, very active and eating like pigs (if I let them). So I say continue with what we believe to be a "best practice," 1.5-2.0 ppm chelated copper for 30 days.

 

[Brew12]

I think we should recommend that people use 2ml/gallon for Coppersafe. I am fairly convinced the core problem is our inability to properly match our API test samples to the card. 2ml/gallon would be 1.88ppm.
We should then encourage people to take a 1 gallon batch of saltwater and mix in the 2ml of Coppersafe. Take a sample and use this sample as the baseline for 2ppm. If they could save this batch of copper treated saltwater that would be great because then they could test it again periodically to use as a comparison.

 

[Cment]

I'm starting to think the same thing. However, I anticipate lots of groaning when I tell people they ought to be using a $65 copper test kit over an $8 one.

Is this the correct test kit? I have a very hard time seeing API since I am partially color blind and don't mind spending the extra money to protect my fish....https://www.chemetrics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=392

 

[Cment]

Great thread BTW guys and gals...love this discussion!

 

[Humblefish]

Is this the correct test kit? I have a very hard time seeing API since I am partially color blind and don't mind spending the extra money to protect my fish....https://www.chemetrics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=392

Yes, many people who have a hard time reading the API test kit seem to prefer the Chemetrics one instead.

I believe @Jeffdstafford & @Reefahholic are two such people.

 

[azbigjohn]

I've re-read this twice, and I'm confused what the consensus is on Coppersafe dosing.

I have 7 fish in a 40 gallon QT, stable for week and eating well. Yesterday, after reading the bottle recommended dose of 4 ml per 5 gallons, I added 15 ml as a "ramp up" dose (to build them up slowly).

This morning, everyone is swimming, look great, etc, but I ran 2 API tests, and I'm reading it as 2.0... I have attached pictures of the tests...

Test one:

Test two:

Am I reading right? Should I add up to recommend 32 ml?

 

[Brew12]

I've re-read this twice, and I'm confused what the consensus is on Coppersafe dosing.

I have 7 fish in a 40 gallon QT, stable for week and eating well. Yesterday, after reading the bottle recommended dose of 4 ml per 5 gallons, I added 15 ml as a "ramp up" dose (to build them up slowly).

This morning, everyone is swimming, look great, etc, but I ran 2 API tests, and I'm reading it as 2.0... I have attached pictures of the tests...

Test one:

Test two:

Am I reading right? Should I add up to recommend 32 ml?

This is a pretty frustrating situation. Have you tried to take your sample into a different room to read it?

Most people seem to read it as being low. I think you are the 2nd who seem to read it high. Just based on the picture, it looks like 2ppm to me.

 

[Humblefish]

Just based on the picture, it looks like 2ppm to me.

+1

 

[Smo]

I think you are less than 2.0 judging from the side view and the little bit of experience I have gained with my first CS treatment. Raise the vial a good 1/2" above the card with good lighting that reflects back up thru the bottom of the vial. You will notice the color lighten up.

 

[azbigjohn]

This is a pretty frustrating situation. Have you tried to take your sample into a different room to read it?

Most people seem to read it as being low. I think you are the 2nd who seem to read it high. Just based on the picture, it looks like 2ppm to me.

So if I am at 2.0 (I will test again, and read in different light) I need to stay there, and I hit my fish with a full dose rapidly? If so, they handled it well, luckily!

Thanks everyone for the help!

 

[azbigjohn]

I think you are less than 2.0 judging from the side view and the little bit of experience I have gained with my first CS treatment. Raise the vial a good 1/2" above the card with good lighting that reflects back up thru the bottom of the vial. You will notice the color lighten up.

Thanks! I will do just that with another test and post it in a few minutes.