Coppersafe dosage incorrect on bottle?

[Smo]

The API directions are not clear but the talk about looking vertically thru the vial "above" the card.

 

[Brew12]

I find the API test kits that you compare from the side to be much easier to read. Too bad they don't make this test kit like that.

 

[Smo]

Yes! Not at all like the Red Sea test kits I am more accustomed too. But with experience I think the API kit is reasonably good.

 

[azbigjohn]

I feel a little better now... I did a new test, and held it above the card in bright light, and now it looks like 1.0, which is what I was shooting for on day one. It's amazing the difference holding above the card makes! Think they would specify that on the instructions for simple people like me [emoji16]!

Above card:

Sitting on card:

 

[Smo]

My first experience exactly.

 

[Brew12]

I feel a little better now... I did a new test, and held it above the card in bright light, and now it looks like 1.0, which is what I was shooting for on day one. It's amazing the difference holding above the card makes! Think they would specify that on the instructions for simple people like me [emoji16]!

Above card:

Sitting on card:

This is what I do with my test. And just like with my test, I think your picture is too yellow to match anything on the card.

 

[Humblefish]

I think lighting makes a big difference. I've become accustomed to always going outside, so I can view the color under natural (but not direct) sunlight. Always view from the top, with the white part of the chart underneath, when reading API test kits.

 

[Brew12]

I think lighting makes a big difference. I've become accustomed to always going outside, so I can view the color under natural (but not direct) sunlight. Always view from the top, with the white part of the chart underneath, when using API test kits.

how high above the card do you hold your sample? Or do you set it on the card?

 

[Humblefish]

how high above the card do you hold your sample? Or do you set it on the card?

I set it right on the white part of the card, and move it left to right until I get a match (or closest). If in doubt, I ask my wife to double check my reading. She's never wrong.

 

[Dr. Reef]

i didnt do the experiment on 1 gal to see what it produces but i will soon and update here. But inside the box there is a guide to fish diseases and they cure (using coppersafe). According to that guide it says 1.5-2.0ppm is what it will maintain if used as directed.
read the last paragraph on parasitic infections.
pics attached.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Well guys I have a dual tank QT setup.
I have a 20 long and 50 gal tank both fitied with brs overflow into a single 20 gal sump. Total qt water volume is 60 gal. According to instructions 5ml per 4gal turns out to be 75 ml to 60 gal. So I decided to go slow and do half the dose. I put 38ml in 60 gal. After 1 hr I tested qt water for copper with API test kit and it showed 1ppm. So if I would have dosed full dose it would have been 2ppm or close to it. So in my case instructions are right to produce copper at 1.5-2.0 ppm.

 

[Humblefish]

@Dr. Reef How old is that bottle of Coppersafe you are using? Is it one of the new "Fritz" bottles?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Yes it's brand new. Bought it 2 weeks ago from Dr foster and smith and yes it's same as you posted the pic of. Outside the box instructions are 5ml per 4 gal. Box does not say anything about what range the copper should be and only instructs to use recommended dosage.
Inside the box there is the bottle and fish disease guide which I posted pic of.
In that guide it recommends that using recommended dose will keep copper at 1.5 to 2.0 ppm range.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Double post

 

[jolt]

To add to this conversation, below is a recent email exchange I had with Fritz about Coppersafe:

First my email to them:

To Whom It May Concern:

I have a couple of questions regarding two of your products.

The first issue regards Coppersafe; you state this right on your website: http://fritzaquatics.com/product/coppersafe/

From years of use I know the correct therapeutic level of chelated copper to be 1.5 to 2.0 ppm. The above "typo" is being recirculated all over the Internet causing confusion.

I'd also like to know what percentage of Formaldehyde is found in Quick Cure. In my experience 37% formaldehyde is usually required in order for the product to be effective for clearing Brooklynella, stubborn worms, and to provide temporary relief for Amyloodinium (velvet) & Uronema.

Kind regards,
Bobby

And now their response:

Good morning Bobby,

With regard to Quick Cure, yes, it is formulated with 37% formaldehyde.

Your question regarding Coppersafe is a bit more complex. Allow me to explain.

While Fritz was the private label manufacturer of Coppersafe for Sergeants from 2007 onwards, Fritz was not privy to their technical information or product history. Sergeants was purchased by Perrigo and they decided to discontinue all aquatic products. Fritz then acted to obtain rights to the Mardel product line including Coppersafe. When this was obtained Fritz had a formula, QC/QA process for raw materials and finished goods, a consumer usage database but no technical history or product development details.

In the absence of hard data, Fritz elected to utilize the standard recommended dosage for the public aquarium/zoo and aquaculture industries which is 0.15 -.20 mg/l or ppm (Noga E. 2010. Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. 2nd Ed. Ames (IA): Wiley-Blackwell. p. 391-393.) This was done to protect consumers and prevent overdoses. We also began a research program into chelated copper sulfate pentahydrate. We also examined the Customer Service databases provided to us by Sergeants; it is clear that this formulation, which has been unchanged for decades, is one of the safest products available on the market.

Our research has determined that when used per label directions Coppersafe will yield a copper level of 1.16 to 1.17 ppm. At this level there are no fish mortalities in controlled experiments. Gill damage is not observed in treated fish exposed to this dosage level. This is due to the sophisticated chelating agent used on the formula.

Coppersafe outperforms other brands of chelated copper on the market in several key areas:

· No other product matches its efficacy against a wide range of parasites

· No other product maintains stable copper levels for up to four weeks

· Few other chelated coppers remain stable when UV sterilization or Ozone are in use

We have also discovered that some of the lower end copper test kits on the market do not produce accurate results for either free or total copper with Coppersafe (and likely other brands of copper on the aquarium market).

At the current time a detailed technical data sheet is being written for Coppersafe detailing all the above information in a formal manner. I’m not sure when this will be released as it has several review stages to go through before publication on our website and release to the public.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Andy

Andy Ternay / Technical Sales Manager Fritz Specialty Division / [email protected] / (972) 329-8878 / Fritz Industries, Inc.

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My follow-up email, which has so far gone unanswered:

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your response. That is great news about Quick Cure, and I will begin recommending that product for formalin use.

However, I am still confused about what the proper therapeutic range should be for Coppersafe. What is the minimum & maximum therapeutic dosages? You said when used as directed, Coppersafe will yield a concentration of 1.16 - 1.17 ppm. Has that concentration been tested on ich theronts and velvet dinospores? If so, what was the kill rate?

I promote Coppersafe quite a bit over Cupramine, because I believe it to be a safer form of copper. However, I have been telling people I advise that the proper therapeutic range for Coppersafe is 1.5 - 2.0 ppm. Am I telling them to overdose? Would a lower therapeutic level still be 100% effective?

Bobby

I wonder if @Randy Holmes-Farley would be willing to weigh in? My coppersafe bottle says the solution is 2.2% chelated copper (the SDS is here, and states 2-3% chelated copper sulfate by weight). Randy, my specific question is: given the info on the bottle and in the product SDS, is it reasonable to expect that a dosage of 1.25 ml/gal results in 1.16ppm concentration?

 

[Humblefish]

I wonder if @Randy Holmes-Farley would be willing to weigh in? My coppersafe bottle says the solution is 2.2% chelated copper (the SDS is here, and states 2-3% chelated copper sulfate by weight). Randy, my specific question is: given the info on the bottle and in the product SDS, is it reasonable to expect that a dosage of 1.25 ml/gal results in 1.16ppm concentration?

I recently tested Coppersafe 5x using the Chemetrics copper test kit. When dosed as directed (5ml per 4 gallons), 1.10-1.20 ppm was the range I achieved with 1.15 ppm being the average. This is close to what F&S now says about Coppersafe: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4721

The unique formulation of Coppersafe solution maintains a total copper level of 1.16 ppm to 1.17 ppm when used as directed.

So, if we assume the recommended dosage achieves 1.15 ppm here are more accurate dosages to achieve 1.5, 1.75 & 2.0 ppm (i.e. therapeutic range):

Coppersafe recommended dosage = 1.25mL/gal

Coppersafe dosage to achieve 1.5 ppm = 1.63mL/gal

Coppersafe dosage to achieve 1.75 ppm = 1.9mL/gal

Coppersafe dosage to achieve 2.0 ppm = 2.17mL/gal

 

[Areseebee]

How do we square this with information from this thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/#post-3810976

There's two videos in that thread that show @Reefahholic measuring the recommended dosage twice with a fancier copper test kit to get ~2ppm with the recommended dosage. Any thoughts?

 

[Humblefish]

Since 1/3 teaspoon = 1.64mL

1/3 teaspoon per gallon would be necessary to achieve 1.5ppm (minimum therapeutic dose for chelated copper).

IMO; 1.5ppm should be reached within 48 hours when treating Marine Velvet Disease: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-copper-window.294484/

 

[Dr. Reef]

I have a hanna portable photometer for copper testing. I did 3 tests by adding 1.25ml to 1 gal (5ml for 4gal) and tested and got average of 1.15 like stated above. Then to be sure I did a full 5ml to 4 gal and got similar but slightly lower at 1.12.
Only did 1 test on 4 gal.

 

[Brew12]

I have a hanna portable photometer for copper testing. I did 3 tests by adding 1.25ml to 1 gal (5ml for 4gal) and tested and got average of 1.15 like stated above. Then to be sure I did a full 5ml to 4 gal and got similar but slightly lower at 1.12.
Only did 1 test on 4 gal.

Well, according to the information I got from Fritz, the photospectrometer is the most accurate instrument and only read 5% low. My link to their info in a different thread.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/page-2#post-3813280