Ich treatment time for new fish from store

th365thli · Jan 5, 2023

I bought a coral beauty from a big box store, knowing most likely it had ich. Hard to find in my area and a great price, so I decided it was a good excuse to buy a quarantine setup since I'll need it in the future anyway.

As expected, it started showing spots almost immediately in my QT. It was hard to tell in the low lit sell tank, but when I brought it back it definitely had ich. Treated with 1.65 ppm of Coppersafe (the bottle said therapeutic is 1.5-2.0ppm and I hard angels were copper sensitive). Using Hanna copper checker. Ever since that initial outbreak of white spots I haven't seen anything on the fish for about a week.

My question is: Can I move it to the display tank soon?

I heard copper treatment for ich should be 30 days, but that's if the main tank is infected. This is because the cyst stage is resistant to copper and it takes about 30 days to be sure ich runs its entire lifecycle, including the copper vulnerable stage.

In my case, I bought a new fish and plopped it straight into quarantine. Unless every fish in my display tank is an ich resistant monster, my display tank is ich free. The parasite SHOULD fall from the fish between 3-7 days. Free swimmers will be killed by the copper, and the cyst stage doesn't matter since I'm removing the fish. So by my estimation I should be able to move the coral beauty to the display around day 8 or 9 (counting after no sympoms)? Is this reasoning sound?

Timeline (indexed by day)
1: Got coral beauty, put in quarantine
2: Got Coppersafe, start ramp up. White spots start to show.
3: Ramp up.
4: Ramp up. White spots stop showing.
5: Therapeutic dose starts now. White spots completely gone.
6 - 9: Hanging out in quarantine.
10th day Current day (as of this posting). 5 days since symptom-free.

FWIW coral beauty is doing great. It's got a plastic fake tree it hangs out in. Tank is bare otherwise. Comes out to eat readily or just browse, and colors look good *big knock on wood*. It's a really cool and aptly named fish. I think it looks better than the ever-popular flame angels tbh. In the initial hiding phase I would stick a dropper in the fake tree and squeeze out frozen brine/spirulina to made sure it ate. By day 3 it would peck at the dropper tip for food, always gives me and the gf a laugh.

QT is a 40 gallon breeder. Filtration is a Fluval canister filter. Using a over-rated aerator for max oxygenation. Has the Seachem ammonia indicator (this thing is freaking awesome). Also has a cheap powerhead for flow.

vetteguy53081 · Jan 5, 2023

th365thli said:
I bought a coral beauty from a big box store, knowing most likely it had ich. Hard to find in my area and a great price, so I decided it was a good excuse to buy a quarantine setup since I'll need it in the future anyway.

As expected, it started showing spots almost immediately in my QT. It was hard to tell in the low lit sell tank, but when I brought it back it definitely had ich. Treated with 1.65 ppm of Coppersafe (the bottle said therapeutic is 1.5-2.0ppm and I hard angels were copper sensitive). Ever since that initial outbreak of white spots I haven't seen anything on the fish for about a week.

My question is: Can I move it to the display tank soon?

I heard copper treatment for ich should be 30 days, but that's if the main tank is infected. This is because the cyst stage is resistant to copper and it takes about 30 days to be sure ich runs its entire lifecycle, including the copper vulnerable stage.

In my case, I bought a new fish and plopped it straight into quarantine. Unless every fish in my display tank is an ich resistant monster, my display tank is ich free. The parasite SHOULD fall from the fish between 3-7 days. Free swimmers will be killed by the copper, and the cyst stage doesn't matter since I'm removing the fish. So by my estimation I should be able to move the coral beauty to the display around day 8 or 9 (counting after no sympoms)? Is this reasoning sound?

Timeline (indexed by day)
1: Got coral beauty, put in quarantine
2: Got Coppersafe, start ramp up. White spots start to show.
3: Ramp up.
4: Ramp up. White spots stop showing.
5: Therapeutic dose starts now. White spots completely gone.
6 - 9: Hanging out in quarantine.
10th day Current day (as of this posting). 5 days since symptom-free.

FWIW coral beauty is doing great. It's got a plastic fake tree it hangs out in. Tank is bare otherwise. Comes out to eat readily or just browse, and colors look good *big knock on wood*

That is wrong coppersafe dosage and it should quickly get to proper level as you dont want to ramp it up. For coppersafe, treat at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

th365thli · Jan 5, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
That is wrong coppersafe dosage and it should quickly get to proper level as you dont want to ramp it up. For coppersafe, treat at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

I appreciate your response and updated my post to reflect more info (in short I have all the correct tools).

However I'm not sure if you read my post completely. My display tank has no issues. I'm referring to treating a brand new fish placed directly in a quarantine tank. I understand the reasonings for the 30 days but I was confirming that they don't apply to my situation. Also referencing this thread:

how long does copper take to kill Ich

I firmly believe in doing the bucket transfer method to really cure whitespot. Been doing that for years and got a 100% survival rate. However, I got asked a question around copper and I cannot find the answer. As we know, copper is only effective during the free swimming stage. Basically it...

www.reef2reef.com

May I ask why overshooting the manufacturer recommended dosage for Coppersafe? Particularly because it is a dwarf angel I am treating. And I thought ramp up should be skipped only if fish was in a dire state. Would it not be safer to ramp up the copper, especially for copper sensitive fish?

Jay Hemdal · Jan 6, 2023

th365thli said:
I bought a coral beauty from a big box store, knowing most likely it had ich. Hard to find in my area and a great price, so I decided it was a good excuse to buy a quarantine setup since I'll need it in the future anyway.

As expected, it started showing spots almost immediately in my QT. It was hard to tell in the low lit sell tank, but when I brought it back it definitely had ich. Treated with 1.65 ppm of Coppersafe (the bottle said therapeutic is 1.5-2.0ppm and I hard angels were copper sensitive). Using Hanna copper checker. Ever since that initial outbreak of white spots I haven't seen anything on the fish for about a week.

My question is: Can I move it to the display tank soon?

I heard copper treatment for ich should be 30 days, but that's if the main tank is infected. This is because the cyst stage is resistant to copper and it takes about 30 days to be sure ich runs its entire lifecycle, including the copper vulnerable stage.

In my case, I bought a new fish and plopped it straight into quarantine. Unless every fish in my display tank is an ich resistant monster, my display tank is ich free. The parasite SHOULD fall from the fish between 3-7 days. Free swimmers will be killed by the copper, and the cyst stage doesn't matter since I'm removing the fish. So by my estimation I should be able to move the coral beauty to the display around day 8 or 9 (counting after no sympoms)? Is this reasoning sound?

Timeline (indexed by day)
1: Got coral beauty, put in quarantine
2: Got Coppersafe, start ramp up. White spots start to show.
3: Ramp up.
4: Ramp up. White spots stop showing.
5: Therapeutic dose starts now. White spots completely gone.
6 - 9: Hanging out in quarantine.
10th day Current day (as of this posting). 5 days since symptom-free.

FWIW coral beauty is doing great. It's got a plastic fake tree it hangs out in. Tank is bare otherwise. Comes out to eat readily or just browse, and colors look good *big knock on wood*. It's a really cool and aptly named fish. I think it looks better than the ever-popular flame angels tbh. In the initial hiding phase I would stick a dropper in the fake tree and squeeze out frozen brine/spirulina to made sure it ate. By day 3 it would peck at the dropper tip for food, always gives me and the gf a laugh.

QT is a 40 gallon breeder. Filtration is a Fluval canister filter. Using a over-rated aerator for max oxygenation. Has the Seachem ammonia indicator (this thing is freaking awesome). Also has a cheap powerhead for flow.

Fritz / Coppersafe is just hedging their bets when they say 1.5 to 2 ppm. In another section of their site, they say 2. I've done testing on my own, and when mixed as directed in fresh seawater, it tests out at 2.5 as a full dose. Because copper tends to drop out of solution over time, that could end up at 2. I've had issues with Coppersafe not controlling disease very well below 2 ppm.

Copper Power used to say use their product at 2 ppm, but their new instructions say to use 2.5 These two products are essentially the same.

Running chelated copper for 30 days is best. If you are only worried about ich, if you move the fish out while it is still in full copper, you are pretty safe in doing so at 21 days. However, velvet has a direct life cycle, so less than 21 days is risky for that. Our quarantine protocol uses a 2 week prazi treatment. The problem is - any remaining tomonts in the tank can then release theronts during that time and allow ich to get started again....so 30 days of copper to reduce the chance of that is best.

Jay

th365thli · Jan 6, 2023

I see what you're saying. It seems a lot depends on if you're keeping the fish in the QT after copper treatment due to tomonts, for reasons such as prazi treatment. If you plan to only treat ich and move the fish immediately then the period can be shortened. This was my original hypothesis.

Can you explain the reasoning for 21 days? Is it just for less margin of error as that exceeds my estimation based on ich's life cycle.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 6, 2023

th365thli said:
I see what you're saying. It seems a lot depends on if you're keeping the fish in the QT after copper treatment due to tomonts, for reasons such as prazi treatment. If you plan to only treat ich and move the fish immediately then the period can be shortened. This was my original hypothesis.

Can you explain the reasoning for 21 days? Is it just for less margin of error as that exceeds my estimation based on ich's life cycle.

The 21 days is to minimally cover the life cycle of velvet, but also, you'll read all sort of dogma about ich having a "set in stone" life cycle - so many days to this point, etc. It is just not that clear cut, life is messy as they say. Extending the time frame helps. Tomonts are not killed by copper. 30 days is almost always long enough for the tomonts to not be infective. I often go with 45 days though, as the fish I move out of QT are going in with a major system full of post quarantine fish and I can't take the risk of a breakout.

Ultimately, you need to evaluate WHY you want to move the fish out of quarantine sooner. Is it because the QT is unstable and the fish are suffering from ammonia issues? Is it because you have another batch of fish coming in? Is it just because you are impatient? For the latter, I just tell people that you can still enjoy the fish while it is in the QT (grin).

The riskiest time with fish is during transfer to a new tank - capture damage, stress from water quality changes, new tankmate aggression, all are greatest in the first few days after moving a fish. You don't want to add to that by not running a full quarantine.....

Jay

th365thli · Jan 9, 2023

Thanks for the response! All of what you said made a ton of sense. There's no really pressing reason other than I need to clear the countertop space (where the QT is) because I want to remodel the countertops. But none of that is very pressing and worth contaminating the main display tank.

th365thli · Jan 24, 2023

Just wanted to update,

I had to move the Coral Beauty to the 65g display faster than anticipated. I recently setup a Red Sea S650 aquarium (150 display) and my quarantine tank was too close to it. I drained water, cleaned everything, and restarted it on the other side of the basement.

I'm happy to report that it's been about a week and it's doing great. No signs of anything in the 65 gallon display *knock on wood*. Ideally I would've done a full 30 days full-dose symptom-free, but I was very diligent about my copper levels. Theoretically it's fine, but Jay's point about life being messy and humans making mistakes is a good one.

nuxx · Jan 24, 2023

If you haven't quarantined I'd probably wager there are some parasites in your tank.

The stress level might just be low ATM...

The chances of having a decently stocked tank that has fish that weren't quarantined and not having parasites in the tank is pretty low.

PigDaddyF15E · Jan 24, 2023

nuxx said:
If you haven't quarantined I'd probably wager there are some parasites in your tank.

The stress level might just be low ATM...

The chances of having a decently stocked tank that has fish that weren't quarantined and not having parasites in the tank is pretty low.

^
This

I believe that you will eventually come to regret your decision to move the fish "early".

...even more so based on looking at your other threads

th365thli · Jan 24, 2023

nuxx said:
If you haven't quarantined I'd probably wager there are some parasites in your tank.

The stress level might just be low ATM...

The chances of having a decently stocked tank that has fish that weren't quarantined and not having parasites in the tank is pretty low.

Let me clarify because I think the prior posts make it clear. The coral beauty was in quarantine for around > 3 weeks. It went direct from the store to my quarantine tank. I showed signs of ich and I treated with the appropriate amount of copper. It had been symptom free and in therapeutic copper for a little under 3 weeks. Based on existing research, ich should've been completely eradicated FROM THE FISH. I was going to do a 30 day treatment but had to move it to the display for reasons I specified above.

Theoretically, it only takes 9 days of therapeutic copper levels to ensure a fish does not have ich. But as Jay helpfully pointed out, humans make mistakes, stuff happens, it's much better to be safe. A full 30 days ensures tomonts are rendered ineffective, but ich should've fell off by the fish past day 9 now and free swimmers eradicated so I personally deemed it safe enough to move after around 3 weeks.

Eradicating ich from a tank is an entirely different matter. That requires at least a full 30 days of copper at therapeutic levels. That however was not my situation.

nuxx · Jan 24, 2023

PigDaddyF15E said:
^
This

I believe that you will eventually come to regret your decision to move the fish "early".

Stocking a 470 gallon tank with big and $$$$ sure made the hobby much more stressful up front when everything wet (even coral / cuc) went through QT.

Also all the extra tanks didn't make my wife happy.

... but I never lost fish to disease in the display. Now they do find other ways to die... (Nature finds a way... to kill itself...)

nuxx · Jan 24, 2023

th365thli said:
Let me clarify because I think the prior posts make it clear. The coral beauty was in quarantine for around > 3 weeks. It went direct from the store to my quarantine tank. I showed signs of ich and I treated with the appropriate amount of copper. It had been symptom free and in therapeutic copper for a little under 3 weeks. Based on existing research, ich should've been completely eradicated FROM THE FISH. I was going to do a 30 day treatment but had to move it to the display for reasons I specified above.

Theoretically, it only takes 9 days of therapeutic copper levels to ensure a fish does not have ich. But as Jay helpfully pointed out, humans make mistakes, stuff happens, it's much better to be safe. A full 30 days ensures tomonts are rendered ineffective, but ich should've fell off by the fish past day 9 now and free swimmers eradicated so I personally deemed it safe enough to move after around 3 weeks.

Eradicating ich from a tank is an entirely different matter. That requires at least a full 30 days of copper at therapeutic levels. This however is not my situation.

Sorry I'm more talking about the fish you had in your tank prior, if this is the first time you quarantined.

PigDaddyF15E · Jan 24, 2023

Good luck to you.

The two things I have learned since returning to the saltwater hobby.

1. You can't rush things.

2. QT or buy from a reputable seller who does. Nothing against the local fish stores...but they aren't in that category in my area.

nuxx · Jan 24, 2023

PigDaddyF15E said:
Good luck to you.

The two things I have learned since returning to the saltwater hobby.

1. You can't rush things.

2. QT or buy from a reputable seller who does. Nothing against the local fish stores...but they aren't in that category in my area.

LOL back when my tank was up, I'd wash my hands like 5x after dealing with an active QT or getting in new fish/coral/cuc before touching my display.

... but I'm a bit OCD / perfectionist as well so...

Not the best combo for this hobby.

th365thli · Jan 24, 2023

nuxx said:
Sorry I'm more talking about the fish you had in your tank prior, if this is the first time you quarantined.

Ahh I see what you're saying.

It's possible. However I think unlikely because:
1. I go to two LFS nearby and they are both reputable, both by others and in my experience.
2. The tank has been up for 4 months now. If there was ich/velvet, I imagine it would've shown by now. I can't imagine literally every single one of my fish being ich immune/resistant. I've had a small Scopas tang in there for more than a month and it's been healthy and I would imagine ich would've showed up first on that.

The coral beauty was the first fish I put from a "shady" place (Petco). That fish I did quarantine. Based off literature, I did enough to eradicate ich from the fish. See also this from Humblefish: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/explaining-the-14-days-in-copper-method.7603/

The mistakes I made were not putting in a clean observation first, which is extra insurance. Looks like it's working out for me for now.

That being said. Anything is possible. And now I have a quarantine in a more permanent location. Looking forward to stocking my 150 gallon with it and the increased knowledge from this wonderful website.