Crocea clam in critical condition (?)

[JoJosReef]

I am reposting this, because I just learned how to put the emergency tag on. Sorry for double post!

Just came into the office, and my crocea is pulled in and away from the shell. Doesn't look good:

For reference, here's what it looked like yesterday:

Here are recent parameters, and I'm checking again now:
Tank parameters (red sea, except salifert PO4)
Salinity: 1.026sg
ALK: ~7.3-7.5 in the AM before addition of first dose of AFR
NO3: ~2ppm, sometimes dosing NeoNitro if dipping below 2ppm and happy up to 5ppm.
PO4: really hard to tell. A hanna would probably help here, but I don't want to shell out the money for it--best guess on Salifert is 0.03-0.2ppm
Mg: Always very high in the 1600s range. AFR doesn't seem to affect Mg, and the salt mixes super high
Ca: Always around 490-500ppm. Same as Mg, don't see much change after AFR.


This tank has been run very stable, overall. I don't know what could have caused this, and I certainly don't know what can be done. If anyone has advice, I'm all ears. Thanks!

 

[JoJosReef]

Above pics not loading correctly, see below:
Today:

Yesterday and last 4 months:

@minus9 @Dburr1014 @Miami Reef @Tamberav

Any of you experts have an idea of what's going on/what can be done if anything?

 

[Dburr1014]

I am reposting this, because I just learned how to put the emergency tag on. Sorry for double post!

Just came into the office, and my crocea is pulled in and away from the shell. Doesn't look good:

For reference, here's what it looked like yesterday:

Here are recent parameters, and I'm checking again now:
Tank parameters (red sea, except salifert PO4)
Salinity: 1.026sg
ALK: ~7.3-7.5 in the AM before addition of first dose of AFR
NO3: ~2ppm, sometimes dosing NeoNitro if dipping below 2ppm and happy up to 5ppm.
PO4: really hard to tell. A hanna would probably help here, but I don't want to shell out the money for it--best guess on Salifert is 0.03-0.2ppm
Mg: Always very high in the 1600s range. AFR doesn't seem to affect Mg, and the salt mixes super high
Ca: Always around 490-500ppm. Same as Mg, don't see much change after AFR.


This tank has been run very stable, overall. I don't know what could have caused this, and I certainly don't know what can be done. If anyone has advice, I'm all ears. Thanks!

I can't seem to open the pics.
Numbers look okay.
Does it have any new growth?

 

[JoJosReef]

I can't seem to open the pics.
Numbers look okay.
Does it have any new growth?

This morning:

Yesterday:

I'm a little fuzzy on the new growth. I have it under an AI prime running AB+ at about 70% (10gallon). And I give it daily phyto/oysterfeast Monday - Friday.

Thanks!

 

[Miami Reef]

It’s a goner.

 

[Miami Reef]

Once they recessed into their shell it’s too late, unfortunately.

 

[Dburr1014]

This morning:

Yesterday:

I'm a little fuzzy on the new growth. I have it under an AI prime running AB+ at about 70% (10gallon). And I give it daily phyto/oysterfeast Monday - Friday.

Thanks!

I don't see any new growth. How long have you been feeding it? Is this somehow direct feeding.
I think it's gone to, doesn't) good at all.

 

[JoJosReef]

Hi all,
Thanks for the replies.

@Dburr1014 I have been feeding it as such:
Monday through Thursday I prepare a tube with a Reef Nutrition mix (300uL Oyster Feast, 300uL ROE, 300uL Mysis feast, 150uL Phyto non-live). I add into this mix 10 medium pellets of TDO + about the same mass of small TDO pellets (irrelevant; for the fish/crabs/RFAs). Top up the tube with tank water for about 5 minutes.

==> Then I take the top slurry (TDO pellets moved to bottom along with most of the mysis and ROE, leaving what I presume to be phyto and oyster feast mostly at the top) and pipette it into the tank about an inch above the clam (divided between clam, pavona, gorgonian and more recently monti digi).

The clam usually reacts by closing and opening a few times. This happens daily, except for weekends.


There is only one other incident of note, which is about 2 weeks ago I introduced an emerald crab that took a bite out of the mantle and was then removed:

Crocea mantle recovery after crab attack

I got a new emerald crab last Friday that I suspected wouldn't last long, since I saw it nibbling on palys and even RFA tentacles same day it went in. Came in on Monday to this on my clam: I wasn't 100% ready to accuse the emerald, so kept my eye on it throughout the day. Once I saw it...

www.reef2reef.com

So potential infection?

@Dburr1014 Comparing these pictures with the posts you made in the other clam thread, I think I also do not see white shell coming up above the other shell. I interpret this to mean that the clam is likely dying of starvation. Perhaps an AI prime 16HD at 70% power AB+ spectrum isn't giving enough PAR for the clam (AI prime is ~1 foot above the clam).

My fault that I did not act faster. I was literally going today to borrow a par meter from a local to check and make adjustments. However, I thought it would only be minor adjustments--seems more more than minor.


One last question: Does anyone know of a narrow LED that could be used to supplement a clam without burning out all of the rest of a mixed reef? I don't want 250+ PAR on the sand bed where I have zoas, cloves, euphyllia, gorgonians and RFAs. I'm thinking a mounted light beaming right onto a clam could help if the problem is PAR. Any ideas?


Thanks again for your help. Very sad day.

 

[minus9]

It slowly starved to death from lack of light. No amount of feeding will ever make up from not enough light, ever. There’s no new shell growth, which is a red flag when it comes to clams. Trying to feed your clam directly or purposely feeding your tank for the clams benefit isn’t something we should strive for. If you simply feed your fish and occasionally kick up some detritus, that’s enough nitrogen for most clams in regards to feeding them.
Clams produce over 120% (up to 180%) or more of their energy/nutritional needs from the zooxanthellae in their mantle alone. In fact, there was a study where they purposely fed one group clams phytoplankton and the other group was completely cut off from any supplemental feedings. At the end of the study, there was no difference between the two groups concerning growth. This is why I repeatedly state that it’s completely unnecessary to feed clams and that your focus should always be to provide quality and quantity of light.
Clams are extremely complex animals, unlike the simple corals that we keep, they have gills, stomachs, a heart, etc They do eat, but not like you think and they are very particular in what they actually consume.
Sorry about the clam, it’s tough to go through this and unfortunately, you’re not alone, myself included.

 

[Dburr1014]

Hi all,
Thanks for the replies.

@Dburr1014 I have been feeding it as such:
Monday through Thursday I prepare a tube with a Reef Nutrition mix (300uL Oyster Feast, 300uL ROE, 300uL Mysis feast, 150uL Phyto non-live). I add into this mix 10 medium pellets of TDO + about the same mass of small TDO pellets (irrelevant; for the fish/crabs/RFAs). Top up the tube with tank water for about 5 minutes.

==> Then I take the top slurry (TDO pellets moved to bottom along with most of the mysis and ROE, leaving what I presume to be phyto and oyster feast mostly at the top) and pipette it into the tank about an inch above the clam (divided between clam, pavona, gorgonian and more recently monti digi).

The clam usually reacts by closing and opening a few times. This happens daily, except for weekends.


There is only one other incident of note, which is about 2 weeks ago I introduced an emerald crab that took a bite out of the mantle and was then removed:

Crocea mantle recovery after crab attack

I got a new emerald crab last Friday that I suspected wouldn't last long, since I saw it nibbling on palys and even RFA tentacles same day it went in. Came in on Monday to this on my clam: I wasn't 100% ready to accuse the emerald, so kept my eye on it throughout the day. Once I saw it...

www.reef2reef.com

So potential infection?

@Dburr1014 Comparing these pictures with the posts you made in the other clam thread, I think I also do not see white shell coming up above the other shell. I interpret this to mean that the clam is likely dying of starvation. Perhaps an AI prime 16HD at 70% power AB+ spectrum isn't giving enough PAR for the clam (AI prime is ~1 foot above the clam).

My fault that I did not act faster. I was literally going today to borrow a par meter from a local to check and make adjustments. However, I thought it would only be minor adjustments--seems more more than minor.


One last question: Does anyone know of a narrow LED that could be used to supplement a clam without burning out all of the rest of a mixed reef? I don't want 250+ PAR on the sand bed where I have zoas, cloves, euphyllia, gorgonians and RFAs. I'm thinking a mounted light beaming right onto a clam could help if the problem is PAR. Any ideas?


Thanks again for your help. Very sad day.

+1 to what minus9 said.
Clam didn't need to be fed.
I'm now wondering if something got lodged in it, like a pellet.
Do you know about the par that was on the clam?
Sorry op, losing a clam like this sucks.

 

[JoJosReef]

It slowly starved to death from lack of light. No amount of feeding will ever make up from not enough light, ever. There’s no new shell growth, which is a red flag when it comes to clams. Trying to feed your clam directly or purposely feeding your tank for the clams benefit isn’t something we should strive for. If you simply feed your fish and occasionally kick up some detritus, that’s enough nitrogen for most clams in regards to feeding them.
Clams produce over 120% (up to 180%) or more of their energy/nutritional needs from the zooxanthellae in their mantle alone. In fact, there was a study where they purposely fed one group clams phytoplankton and the other group was completely cut off from any supplemental feedings. At the end of the study, there was no difference between the two groups concerning growth. This is why I repeatedly state that it’s completely unnecessary to feed clams and that your focus should always be to provide quality and quantity of light.
Clams are extremely complex animals, unlike the simple corals that we keep, they have gills, stomachs, a heart, etc They do eat, but not like you think and they are very particular in what they actually consume.
Sorry about the clam, it’s tough to go through this and unfortunately, you’re not alone, myself included.

Really kicking myself about this. <1> Put off the par meter for way too long thinking the AI Prime was good enough (will just "double check" when I get around to it). <2> Didn't spend enough time reading the James Fatherree book I downloaded.

All avoidable errors. I'll finish the clam book before I think about getting a new one.

+1 to what minus9 said.
Clam didn't need to be fed.
I'm now wondering if something got lodged in it, like a pellet.
Do you know about the par that was on the clam?
Sorry op, losing a clam like this sucks.

Not sure how I'd find out about something getting lodged in it. It seems like the clam went downhill super fast. As I said in OP, it had a bright and fully extended mantle yesterday. Now, it looks like it has a hole in the bottom of it and is twitching inside of it's shell. Horrible to watch. Does a starving clam usually take such a fast turn for the worse?

Thinking ahead, maybe a Noopsyche K7 mini with a long-ish narrow shade might focus enough light onto a clam (without blasting everything else) to have it living happily and well energized in a mixed soft/LPS/beginning SPS reef?

Thanks for the help!

 

[AydenLincoln]

How long have you had the clam?

 

[Tamberav]

Do not feed clams.. if it was closing up and opening, it was irritated by the food.

I do not see good shell growth.

Clams do not visibly go down hill slowly.. the mantle looks fine and then they don't.

I killed 2 clams when I used a bad batch of salt with high magnesium spike.. but this was more like 1900+? Inverts do not like super high mg. I doubt this was the cause at 1600 as effects of high mag do not take long... but something to note. Two cleaner shrimp and other stuff died with it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

This morning:

Yesterday:

I'm a little fuzzy on the new growth. I have it under an AI prime running AB+ at about 70% (10gallon). And I give it daily phyto/oysterfeast Monday - Friday.

Thanks!

the tissue is far receeded proposing grim outcome. there are several things that can cause this. They’re a sensitive species. You CAN’T allow ammonia, nitrite, or even nitrates to build up. This means adhering to a strict schedule of 25% water changes every week. Set up dosing to provide the trace elements the clam will need to survive if you can’t. Fluctuations in temperature, oxygen levels, pH, or alkalinity can make your maxima unhappy. Maxima clams also need light and lots of it which fuels the photosynthesis carried out by the zooxanthellae within their mantle. Without proper light, the clam will starve.
A few numbers to keep in mind with them (ranges) :
Temperature not to exceed 80
Ca not to exceed 450
Ph not to exceed 8.3
Alk not to exceed 11
Salinity best at 1.025
Nitrate not to exceed.8
Moderate water flow
Good lighting

 

[JoJosReef]

How long have you had the clam?

Since mid-April under an AI Prime 16HD in a 10g tank. A few stumbles in the very beginning with placement, but the clam settled on top of a barnacle about 1 foot below the AI Prime. Been running 70% power AB+ spectrum on Saxby schedule.

Do not feed clams.. if it was closing up and opening, it was irritated by the food.

I do not see good shell growth.

Clams do not visibly go down hill slowly.. the mantle looks fine and then they don't.

I killed 2 clams when I used a bad batch of salt with high magnesium spike.. but this was more like 1900+? Inverts do not like super high mg. I doubt this was the cause at 1600 as effects of high mag do not take long... but something to note. Two cleaner shrimp and other stuff died with it.

I've recently learned about what to look for in shell growth. Good to know. I believe the AI Prime wasn't cutting it. My ignorance, my fault. Thinking ahead about what kind of light supplement to add to keep a clam happy with everything else also happy (maybe something like a Noopsyche K7 mini with a narrow shade pointed at the clam's spot).

the tissue is far receeded proposing grim outcome. there are several things that can cause this. They’re a sensitive species. You CAN’T allow ammonia, nitrite, or even nitrates to build up. This means adhering to a strict schedule of 25% water changes every week. Set up dosing to provide the trace elements the clam will need to survive if you can’t. Fluctuations in temperature, oxygen levels, pH, or alkalinity can make your maxima unhappy. Maxima clams also need light and lots of it which fuels the photosynthesis carried out by the zooxanthellae within their mantle. Without proper light, the clam will starve.
A few numbers to keep in mind with them (ranges) :
Temperature not to exceed 80
Ca not to exceed 450
Ph not to exceed 8.3
Alk not to exceed 11
Salinity best at 1.025
Nitrate not to exceed.8
Moderate water flow
Good lighting

It's gotten more grim throughout the day. Holding no hopes for the clam and just making notes to do better in the future. Most likely culprit seems to be subPAR light.

Thanks everyone!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Since mid-April under an AI Prime 16HD in a 10g tank. A few stumbles in the very beginning with placement, but the clam settled on top of a barnacle about 1 foot below the AI Prime. Been running 70% power AB+ spectrum on Saxby schedule.


I've recently learned about what to look for in shell growth. Good to know. I believe the AI Prime wasn't cutting it. My ignorance, my fault. Thinking ahead about what kind of light supplement to add to keep a clam happy with everything else also happy (maybe something like a Noopsyche K7 mini with a narrow shade pointed at the clam's spot).


It's gotten more grim throughout the day. Holding no hopes for the clam and just making notes to do better in the future. Most likely culprit seems to be subPAR light.

Thanks everyone!

Agree on Light. You may need an Ai hydra 26 or 32 to deliver the light it needs

 

[anthonygf]

It slowly starved to death from lack of light. No amount of feeding will ever make up from not enough light, ever. There’s no new shell growth, which is a red flag when it comes to clams. Trying to feed your clam directly or purposely feeding your tank for the clams benefit isn’t something we should strive for. If you simply feed your fish and occasionally kick up some detritus, that’s enough nitrogen for most clams in regards to feeding them.
Clams produce over 120% (up to 180%) or more of their energy/nutritional needs from the zooxanthellae in their mantle alone. In fact, there was a study where they purposely fed one group clams phytoplankton and the other group was completely cut off from any supplemental feedings. At the end of the study, there was no difference between the two groups concerning growth. This is why I repeatedly state that it’s completely unnecessary to feed clams and that your focus should always be to provide quality and quantity of light.
Clams are extremely complex animals, unlike the simple corals that we keep, they have gills, stomachs, a heart, etc They do eat, but not like you think and they are very particular in what they actually consume.
Sorry about the clam, it’s tough to go through this and unfortunately, you’re not alone, myself included.

Isn't it true that clams under a certain size like 4-5 inches need supplemental feeding besides the lighting?

 

[JoJosReef]

Agree on Light. You may need an Ai hydra 26 or 32 to deliver the light it needs

I'm worried that would be overkill for the rest of the inhabitants (euphyllia, RFAs, zoas, hitchhiker cup corals and stat corals... all in a 10gallon cube).

What about something like a kessil with a telescope-like shade to focus light in one spot? Aim for 400-500 par where the clam would be and 100-150 from the AI prime on sand bed--does that sound realistic?

Thanks!

 

[anthonygf]

I'm worried that would be overkill for the rest of the inhabitants (euphyllia, RFAs, zoas, hitchhiker cup corals and stat corals... all in a 10gallon cube).

What about something like a kessil with a telescope-like shade to focus light in one spot? Aim for 400-500 par where the clam would be and 100-150 from the AI prime on sand bed--does that sound realistic?

Thanks!

They make a light with a spot lens that will focus the light very tight on to the clam, those lights need to be placed further away from the any specimen.

 

[anthonygf]

I am reposting this, because I just learned how to put the emergency tag on. Sorry for double post!

Just came into the office, and my crocea is pulled in and away from the shell. Doesn't look good:

For reference, here's what it looked like yesterday:

Here are recent parameters, and I'm checking again now:
Tank parameters (red sea, except salifert PO4)
Salinity: 1.026sg
ALK: ~7.3-7.5 in the AM before addition of first dose of AFR
NO3: ~2ppm, sometimes dosing NeoNitro if dipping below 2ppm and happy up to 5ppm.
PO4: really hard to tell. A hanna would probably help here, but I don't want to shell out the money for it--best guess on Salifert is 0.03-0.2ppm
Mg: Always very high in the 1600s range. AFR doesn't seem to affect Mg, and the salt mixes super high
Ca: Always around 490-500ppm. Same as Mg, don't see much change after AFR.


This tank has been run very stable, overall. I don't know what could have caused this, and I certainly don't know what can be done. If anyone has advice, I'm all ears. Thanks!

Sorry about your clam, I also lost a few myself. The longest I was able to keep one alive was 18 months, he was a good 10 inches. I won't try clams any more, just don't like seeing them die.