Cross talk between bacteria and macro.

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Recently, I have seen several threads advocating sterilizing seaweed with a gamete of harsh chemicals, then a 72 day quarantine.

Sanitize & sterilize are two different things. To sanitize Chaetomorphy, soak in fresh water for 5 minutes. This is why you don’t want to sterilize:

The seaweed surface provides a suitable substratum for the settlement of microorgansims and also secretes various organic substances that function as nutrients for multiplication of bacteria and the formation of microbial biofilms (Steinberg et al., 2002; Staufenberger et al., 2008; Singh, 2013). Microbial communities living on the seaweed surface are highly complex, dynamic and consist of a consortium of microorganisms including bacteria, fungi, diatoms, protozoa, spores and larvae of marine invertebrates (Lachnit et al., 2009, 2011; Goecke et al., 2010; Burke et al., 2011a, b). Among them, bacteria are ubiquitous and occur either on the seaweed surface or in the cytosol of living host cells (Herbaspirillum sp. in Caulerpa taxifolia) and determine different stages of the life cycle of eukaryotic organisms including macroalgae (Delbridge et al., 2004; Burke et al., 2011a; Singh et al., 2011a, b, c). Quorum sensing (QS) signalling molecules produced by Gram-negative bacterial strains determine zoospores settlement in Ulva species (Joint et al., 2002) and spores liberation in Acrochaetium (Weinberger et al., 2007) and Gracilaria species (Singh, 2013). Thallusin, a bacterial metabolite, and nitrogen-fixing bacteria associated with seaweeds have also been found to be responsible for induction of morphogenesis and growth in marine macroalgae, respectively (Chisholm et al., 1996; Matsuo et al., 2005; Singh et al., 2011b). Macroalgae (as a host), also known to be ecosystem engineers, play critical roles in structuring of intertidal communities (Jones et al., 1994). Some water-soluble monosaccharides such as rhamnose, xylose, glucose, mannose and galactose are part of algal polysaccharides that constitute part of the cell wall (Popper et al., 2011) and the rest storage material (Lahaye & Axelos, 1993; Michel et al., 2010a, b). These algal polysaccharides are a potential source of carbon and energy for numerous marine bacteria (Hehemann et al., 2012) that produce specific molecules, which in turn facilitate seaweed–bacterial associations (Steinberg et al., 2002; Lachnit et al., 2013). Therefore, these interactions between seaweeds and bacteria have fascinated and attracted the attention of many researchers worldwide.
 
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ichthyogeek

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Y'know, I think I'm responsible for some threads with questions like those. This does raises additional questions.

I ascribe greatly to the oz of prevention>>>pound of cure idea. As somebody interested in fish breeding, after 76 days fallow, I'm really only concerned about hydroids and Uronema; bacteria and viruses are something I've come to the conclusion that I'll simply have to deal with. But say I want to work with chromis, a fish known to be very susceptible to Uronema infections. Does this then imply that, in order to prevent a Uronema infection, I should not house chromis in systems that have or have had macroalgae in them due to the possibility of macroalgae harboring Uronema, which is known to not be affected by fallow periods?

The link didn't work for me, but I think this is the same one: Seaweed–microbial interactions: key functions of seaweed-associated bacteria (Singh and Reddy, 2014)

The parts of the abstract that detail macroalgal reliance (?) on bacteria (Thallusin especially) is interesting, although I'm less interested in how macroalgaes can help bacterial communities. @flampton oh all-might microbiologist, can you provide commentary?
 
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For certain, it’s about the bacteria and the microbial food chain. A microbiologist friend coined the term., “microbial overlords”.

I suggest that a healthy immune system coupled with a healthy diet will get fish in breeding form. Ask @Paul B about fish nutrition and fish immune system.
 

ichthyogeek

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For certain, it’s about the bacteria and the microbial food chain. A microbiologist friend coined the term., “microbial overlords”.

I suggest that a healthy immune system coupled with a healthy diet will get fish in breeding form. Ask @Paul B about fish nutrition and fish immune system.
While I acknowledge that a healthy diet (blackworms, white worms, clams, etc.) will get fish in breeding form, this completely skirts around my question.

I understand how to get fish to breed. That is not the question. My question is preventing the fish intended for breeding (in this example, Chromis sp.), from getting infected with a known pathogen. If the fish are infected and subsequently die, then you certainly can't rear their larvae without a strange necromantic ritual, and I'm fresh out of those.
 
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While I acknowledge that a healthy diet (blackworms, white worms, clams, etc.) will get fish in breeding form, this completely skirts around my question.

I understand how to get fish to breed. That is not the question. My question is preventing the fish intended for breeding (in this example, Chromis sp.), from getting infected with a known pathogen. If the fish are infected and subsequently die, then you certainly can't rear their larvae without a strange necromantic ritual, and I'm fresh out of those.

The same healthy diet that gets fish in breeding form also energizes their immune system. You assume that fish will be Infected by parasite and I assume that fish immune system, particularly the slime coat. will prevent infection from parasite. The bacteria banquet on the surfaces of macro algae provide the nourishment to energize that immune system.

In rereading your post on Uronema,
[Does this then imply that, in order to prevent a Uronema infection, I should not house chromis in systems that have or have had macroalgae in them due to the possibility of macroalgae harboring Uronema, which is known to not be affected by fallow periods?]

Considering the life cycle of Uronema, the macro algae is the least likely place for parasite to infest as opposed to detritus & sediment.

[If you are concerned about Hydroids becoming a problem in your Dwarf seahorse aquarium or fry system it does not hurt to run a Fenbendazole treatment to be safe. Seahorses handle this treatment very well in our experience and it does not take harm beneficial bacteria so no worries with this. This is assuming you do not have invertebrates, corals or macro algae in your system.]

[Caution: Fenbendazole is a dewormer. If for some reason you have a high number of worms in your system such as bristle worms, this medication will kill them which could cause an ammonia spike. Anytime you are running a treatment it is important to watch your water parameters very closely for spikes.]

I am not sure if the above link from seahorse savvy is same one you posted on another thread of same topic.
 
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Why are bacteria important in reef ecology? Because they move 30%-70% of carbon up the food chain.


REPLACING MICROBES IN THE FOOD WEB
[Benthic organisms release large amounts of their daily photo- synthesized carbon in the form of dissolved and particulate or- ganic matter (DOM and POM, respectively; Table 3). Corals re- lease a minor fraction as POM that works as a particle trap in the water, carrying matter and energy which is taken up by fil- ter feeders and detritivores, such as epizootic worms and poly- chaetes (Huettel, Wild and Gonelli 2006; Naumann et al. 2009, 2010b). The labile benthic-derived DOC enters the microbial loop in the overlying water, being recycled back into inorganic mate- rial or alternatively forming particulate matter that also feeds benthic and planktonic organisms (Gast et al. 1998; Scheffers et al. 2004; Nelson et al. 2011). The proportion of DOM recycled depends on its chemical composition and microbial metabolism (Haas et al. 2011; Nelson et al. 2013). Therefore, microbes occupy a distinct place within the reef trophic web compared to open- ocean systems where food webs are sustained by planktonic pri- mary production (Azam and Malfatti 2007)]

[In coral reefs, bacteria comprise 37–73% of the total biomass c a r b o n i n t h e h e t e r o t r o p h i c p l a n k t o n ( F e r r i e r - P a g e` s a n d Gattuso 1998). As a result of cell-specific differences in biomass, compositional shifts in the bacterial communities will impact whole-reef community biomass and metabolism. Algae- stimulated bacterial communities are dominated by groups with large cell and genome sizes, such Gammaproteobacteria and Bacteoidetes, commonly found in eutrophic ecosystems (Lauro et al. 2009; Luo and Moran 2015). In contrast, coral-stimulated microbes resemble that of oligotrophic waters including mem- bers of Roseobacterales and Sphingomonadales, which have smaller cells and genomes (Lauro et al. 2009; Luo and Moran 2015).]
 

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Sanitize & sterilize are two different things. To sanitize Chaetomorphy, soak in fresh water for 5 minutes. This is why you don’t want to sterilize:

The seaweed surface provides a suitable substratum for the settlement of microorgansims and also secretes various organic substances that function as nutrients for multiplication of bacteria and the formation of microbial biofilms (Steinberg et al., 2002; Staufenberger et al., 2008; Singh, 2013). Microbial communities living on the seaweed surface are highly complex, dynamic and consist of a consortium of microorganisms including bacteria, fungi, diatoms, protozoa, spores and larvae of marine invertebrates (Lachnit et al., 2009, 2011; Goecke et al., 2010; Burke et al., 2011a, b). Among them, bacteria are ubiquitous and occur either on the seaweed surface or in the cytosol of living host cells (Herbaspirillum sp. in Caulerpa taxifolia) and determine different stages of the life cycle of eukaryotic organisms including macroalgae (Delbridge et al., 2004; Burke et al., 2011a; Singh et al., 2011a, b, c). Quorum sensing (QS) signalling molecules produced by Gram-negative bacterial strains determine zoospores settlement in Ulva species (Joint et al., 2002) and spores liberation in Acrochaetium (Weinberger et al., 2007) and Gracilaria species (Singh, 2013). Thallusin, a bacterial metabolite, and nitrogen-fixing bacteria associated with seaweeds have also been found to be responsible for induction of morphogenesis and growth in marine macroalgae, respectively (Chisholm et al., 1996; Matsuo et al., 2005; Singh et al., 2011b). Macroalgae (as a host), also known to be ecosystem engineers, play critical roles in structuring of intertidal communities (Jones et al., 1994). Some water-soluble monosaccharides such as rhamnose, xylose, glucose, mannose and galactose are part of algal polysaccharides that constitute part of the cell wall (Popper et al., 2011) and the rest storage material (Lahaye & Axelos, 1993; Michel et al., 2010a, b). These algal polysaccharides are a potential source of carbon and energy for numerous marine bacteria (Hehemann et al., 2012) that produce specific molecules, which in turn facilitate seaweed–bacterial associations (Steinberg et al., 2002; Lachnit et al., 2013). Therefore, these interactions between seaweeds and bacteria have fascinated and attracted the attention of many researchers worldwide.

While I don't see a need to sterilize the surfaces of macroalgae, It is not clear to me that anything bad will happen if you do.

What exactly would happen that is bad, aside from possibly damaging the macroalgae?
 
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While I don't see a need to sterilize the surfaces of macroalgae, It is not clear to me that anything bad will happen if you do.

What exactly would happen that is bad, aside from possibly damaging the macroalgae?

I use ornamental macro in my display tank. When I see fish grazing on surfaces of macroalgae, I realize the value of bacterial films. It is further my belief that these bacterial films on macro surfaces contribute to fish immune system. Many ornamental macros are delicate and will dissolve into water column when stressed. While a reef tank is not a wild reef, I consider the microbial food chain as very important in my reef tanks and promote diversity as much as possible. It is my belief that introduction of diverse food webs is important and bacteria are the building blocks for those food webs.
 

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I use ornamental macro in my display tank. When I see fish grazing on surfaces of macroalgae, I realize the value of bacterial films. It is further my belief that these bacterial films on macro surfaces contribute to fish immune system. Many ornamental macros are delicate and will dissolve into water column when stressed. While a reef tank is not a wild reef, I consider the microbial food chain as very important in my reef tanks and promote diversity as much as possible. It is my belief that introduction of diverse food webs is important and bacteria are the building blocks for those food webs.

OK, but no papers you posted say anything about fish being more healthy due to bacteria on the macroalgae they are eating.
 

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I wouldn't worry too much about sterilizing the macro because that is really not possible without specialized techniques.

If I truly wanted a pest free macro I would simply cut a small piece of macro, rub the surfaces a bit in saltwater, then move the macro to a growth media and incubate with aeration and 12/12 lighting. If going really over the top Id take a cutting from new growth and repeat once or more. This would work fine for eliminating uronema from the final culture. (Metronidazole works against the ciliate as well but not sure the negatives on the macro)
 
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OK, but no papers you posted say anything about fish being more healthy due to bacteria on the macroalgae they are eating.

Not likely to find papers on reef tank fish but research money’s are available for aquaculture.



Enhancement of production

[Shrimp showed a higher final weight in the tanks with
biofilm, leading to higher biomass at the end of the
experiments (Thompson et al., 2002). Ramesh et al.
(1999) observed that easily biodegradable sugarcane
bagasse, having more fibre and surface area favoured
better growth of fish through bacterial biofilm than paddy
straw and Eichhornea. The growth of rohu (L. rohita) in
the presence of sugarcane bagasse, paddy straw and
dried Eichhorneafor settlement of biofilm, was higher by
47.5, 29.1 and 17.6%, respectively than the control.
Similarly, they observed the growth of common carp
(Cyprinuscarpio) in the presence of substrata like sugar-
cane bagasse, paddy straw and dried Eichhornea was
higher by 47.4, 32.9 and 20.7%, respectively than the
control. Umesh et al. (1999) conducted an experiment
with sugarcane bagasse as substratum and found that
the growth of fish was remarkably high in the treatments]
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Not likely to find papers on reef tank fish but research money’s are available for aquaculture.



Enhancement of production

[Shrimp showed a higher final weight in the tanks with
biofilm, leading to higher biomass at the end of the
experiments (Thompson et al., 2002). Ramesh et al.
(1999) observed that easily biodegradable sugarcane
bagasse, having more fibre and surface area favoured
better growth of fish through bacterial biofilm than paddy
straw and Eichhornea. The growth of rohu (L. rohita) in
the presence of sugarcane bagasse, paddy straw and
dried Eichhorneafor settlement of biofilm, was higher by
47.5, 29.1 and 17.6%, respectively than the control.
Similarly, they observed the growth of common carp
(Cyprinuscarpio) in the presence of substrata like sugar-
cane bagasse, paddy straw and dried Eichhornea was
higher by 47.4, 32.9 and 20.7%, respectively than the
control. Umesh et al. (1999) conducted an experiment
with sugarcane bagasse as substratum and found that
the growth of fish was remarkably high in the treatments]

Two main issues (IMO):

1. Sterilizing macroalgae doesn't mean it stays sterile (it won't).
2. That discussion relates to the bacteria being a protein food in situations where poor farmers are trying to do aquaculture without feeding the organisms (or feeding less). Is that the situation in most reef tanks?
 
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Two main issues (IMO):

1. Sterilizing macroalgae doesn't mean it stays sterile (it won't).
2. That discussion relates to the bacteria being a protein food in situations where poor farmers are trying to do aquaculture without feeding the organisms (or feeding less). Is that the situation in most reef tanks?

Yes, macro will never stay sterile. It’s surface film is a dynamic ecosystem of many microscopic players that are interconnected and dependent on each other. This is at the heart of the thread. It’s my contention that it’s healthy biochemistry for all including grazing fish on live organic jelly including live bacteria.

While I have not toured commercial aquaculture facilities in third world countries, I have toured 100 acre facilities in Texas. I know large corporations use scientific information to formulate feed ratios to enhance growth rates in these facilities. These facilities are intense cultivation ratios of 5 pounds per cubic foot and bioflock is at the heart of these feeds. The waters are nutrient rich and are heavily regulated to the point of using algae grow-out ponds to remove excess nutrients. This sounds like a marine ornamental tank on a heavy feed with heavy nutrient export and heavy nutrient recycling into fish biomass.
 
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Subsea

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Don't forget about fungi

Thank you for reminder. Below link should work.

2013). Microbial communities living on the seaweed surface are highly complex, dynamic and consist of a consortium of microorganisms including bacteria, fungi, diatoms, protozoa, spores and larvae of marine invertebrates (Lachnit et al., 2009, 2011; Goecke et al., 2010; Burke et al., 2011a, b). Among them, bacteria are ubiquitous and occur either on the seaweed surface or in the cytosol of living host cells (Herbaspirillum sp. in Caulerpa taxifolia) and determine different stages of the life cycle of eukaryotic organisms including macroalgae (Delbridge et al., 2004; Burke et al., 2011a; Singh et al., 2011a, b, c). Quorum sensing (QS) signalling molecules produced by Gram-negative bacterial strains determine zoospores settlement in Ulva species (Joint et al., 2002) and spores liberation in Acrochaetium (Weinberger et al., 2007) and Gracilaria species (Singh, 2013). Thallusin, a bacterial metabolite, and nitrogen-fixing bacteria associated with seaweeds have also been found to be responsible for induction of morphogenesis and growth in marine macroalgae, respectively (Chisholm et al., 1996; Matsuo et al., 2005; Singh et al., 2011b). Macroalgae (as a host), also known to be ecosystem engineers, play critical roles in structuring of intertidal communities (Jones et al., 1994). Some water-soluble monosaccharides such as rhamnose, xylose, glucose, mannose and galactose are part of algal polysaccharides that constitute part of the cell wall (Popper et al., 2011) and the rest storage material (Lahaye & Axelos, 1993; Michel et al., 2010a, b). These algal polysaccharides are a potential source of carbon and energy for numerous marine bacteria (Hehemann et al., 2012) that produce specific molecules, which in turn facilitate seaweed–bacterial associations (Steinberg et al., 2002; Lachnit et al., 2013). Therefore, these interactions between seaweeds and bacteria have fascinated and attracted the attention of many researchers worldwide.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Yes, macro will never stay sterile. It’s surface film is a dynamic ecosystem of many microscopic players that are interconnected and dependent on each other. This is at the heart of the thread. It’s my contention that it’s healthy biochemistry for all including grazing fish on live organic jelly including live bacteria.

While I have not toured commercial aquaculture facilities in third world countries, I have toured 100 acre facilities in Texas. I know large corporations use scientific information to formulate feed ratios to enhance growth rates in these facilities. These facilities are intense cultivation ratios of 5 pounds per cubic foot and bioflock is at the heart of these feeds. The waters are nutrient rich and are heavily regulated to the point of using algae grow-out ponds to remove excess nutrients. This sounds like a marine ornamental tank on a heavy feed with heavy nutrient export and heavy nutrient recycling into fish biomass.

Taken altogether, I cannot see a reason to worry about bacteria on macroalgae, whether you sterilize or not. :)
 
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Taken altogether, I cannot see a reason to worry about bacteria on macroalgae, whether you sterilize or not. :)

I consider sterilization as not only unnecessary, I consider it harmful to both macro and surface film bio flock. Sterilization, depending on method, will kill kill macro. Also, depending on the method to sterilize. new bacteria populations will be less diverse.

I can’t help but think that a diverse population of Quorum Sensing bacteria are healthier to eat than fist colony bacteria.
 
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FTR, I think fluconazole (anti fungal) kills nuisance algae by killing fungal symbionts thus weakening the algae's cell structures and allowing competitors (possibly bacterial) to kill the algal cells. This is just a theory...

I think it is more than theory.

In reading the fluconazole warnings at seahorse savvy, on one hand it’s not harmful to bacteria on the other hand it’s a goat dewormer.
Fenbendazole, brand name Panacur, generally works well for eliminating Hydroids in a fry system. Another brand name we use is Merck Safegaurd goat dewormer (Fenbendazole). We prefer the liquid 10% suspension form rather than the granules.

Fenbendazole is actually a dewormer and is commonly available at tractor supply stores for larger mammals. It is available online as well and is a good medication to have on hand if you are raising seahorse fry or keeping Dwarf seahorses. Seahorses in our experience handle this treatment very well when done properly. It can also be used in a Dwarf seahorse system but invertebrates (corals and cleanup crew) are sensitive to this medication and should be removed from the system during treatment. Fenbendazole does leach in the substrate so reintroducing the inverts may be problematic after a treatment. Macro algae can also be sensitive to this medication.

Treatment
 
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More research dollars on probiotics of seaweed for human immune system.

The Potential of Seaweeds as a Source of Functional Ingredients of Prebiotic and Antioxidant Value


Biofilms & macroalgae are interconnected and beneficial to fish.
The Second Skin: Ecological Role of Epibiotic Biofilms on Marine Organisms
Abstract
In the aquatic environment, biofilms on solid surfaces are omnipresent. The outer body surface of marine organisms often represents a highly active interface between host and biofilm. Since biofilms on living surfaces have the capacity to affect the fluxes of information, energy, and matter across the host’s body surface, they have an important ecological potential to modulate the abiotic and biotic interactions of the host. Here we review existing evidence how marine epibiotic biofilms affect their hosts’ ecology by altering the properties of and processes across its outer surfaces. Biofilms have a huge potential to reduce its host’s access to light, gases, and/or nutrients and modulate the host’s interaction with further foulers, consumers, or pathogens. These effects of epibiotic biofilms may intensely interact with environmental conditions. The quality of a biofilm’s impact on the host may vary from detrimental to beneficial according to the identity of the epibiotic partners, the type of interaction considered, and prevailing environmental conditions. The review concludes with some unresolved but important questions and future perspectives.
 
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