K. Steven
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Have you identified yours as Ostreopsis, Amphidinium, or another genus?
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
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Have you identified yours as Ostreopsis, Amphidinium, or another genus?
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No, not yet, eventually. Just curious if any similarities of life cycles or sexuality and/or cell structure that might stand out. Which I'm reading about now, for one specie. Seems like a very complex structure lol... I'm brainstorming..
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Although 77F was what it takes to wake up long term cysts, you have to drop to 60F or below to end the bloom - and cause cyst formation, based on the same research. (Ostreopsis)
The "life cycle" thing doesn't apply to our species. They just keep growing and dividing forever until they run out of something. Sexual reproduction almost never a factor in our blooms.
The only one that has an accessible environmental "kill switch" that we've found and seen work in hobbyist setting is Small-Cell Amphidinium self destructs by 9th day of darkness. But only a few people get that one.
Oh yeah, and the dino that lives in our corals can be easily killed by moderate overheating. Not helpful.
The weaknesses that could kill most species just cause them to form cysts, and the species that don't form cysts (amphidinium) are not susceptible to the weaknesses that the others have.
That's why this thread was made by the OP. Fancy tricks and have a well documented history of frustrating inconsistency and failure.
Regarding sponges, intake pores are too small, but clams do filter (an insignificant number of) free swimming dinos, and the toxin accumulates in their flesh. It's called Paralytic Shellfish Poisoning.
@Jolanta as for the "something" mcarroll gave a good list earlier, and maybe I'll post some specific "somethings" if I get a chance tonight.
Hint: I [emoji173] ciliates.
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Can I mail you a sample for positive ID?
Jolanta
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Give me some rocks from your display system please
How would you recomend to quarantine to avoid bad dinos? Do you think making quarantine and taking samples to a microscope would be enough?
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@mcarroll I guess the most contextual statement that would best support the purpose of this thread would be the generalization of increase nutrients and biodiversity? I ask because of a series of unfortunate events that hit my tank a couple(or more) months back. The result went from a stable nutrient environment with diversity to undetectable nutrients, zoox expulsion, coral death and now dinos. I do have some cyano mixed in. In my case this would present a couple issues in terms of increased nutrients and cyano out competing (future) added diversity, would it not?
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mcarroll
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+1
@reeferfoxx Much like the numbers you're likely to see associated with another pest dinoflagellate, these numbers get specific to the exact type of Ostreopsis cf ovata you have...with some Ostreopsis having trigger points much lower or higher....and (apparently) you really need molecular methods and a database to ID the specific type you have.
That doesn't mean there's no room to experiment on these parameters, but there is still no simple number to target on salinity or temperature. (Both of Ostreopsis's triggers.) And like Taricha said, you might only cause cyst formation.
In the majority of cases, it seems like adding dissolved nutrients is what makes the biggest difference in the short term.
Eliminating anything (conditions or otherwise) to do with the cause of the bloom is at least as important, IMO.
(Can you PM me or post here what caused yours?)
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mcarroll
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@reeferfoxx another untested idea is to exploit their mucus production.......in the spirit of the saying "The problem is the solution."
Apparently they use mucus A) to spread their toxins (this is apparently the delivery mechanism) and B) to shield themselves from light, C) to cause themselves to sink to escape the light and being washed away and D) to attach to benthic surfaces (be they rocks, plants or animals).
Reasons to reduce A) are obvious.
B) I think we can possibly exploit along with C) and D)....or at least I suspect.
If you have UV and/or a diatom filter available, it seems like you should be able to capture the lions share.
You can use a powerhead to blast your rocks and sand.....this should loosen the majority and get them into the water column.
Done at least a few times during a blackout, perhaps with tank flow turned down as well, any free-swimmers would be disinclined to form mats and be fairly likely to get caught in a diatom or UV filter. The powerhead blasts should dislodge and keep afloat most of the matted dinos.
Not saying that's a complete strategy, but it's what I've imagined so far based on this literature. A workable solution will require some testing and refinement I have no doubt.
Again, dissolved nutrient additions seem to work where the tank isn't extremely compromised already, so I'd try that first.
Experimenting with other options (like the above) after you get the dino's "on the ropes" would be a better position to be in.
Apparently they use mucus A) to spread their toxins (this is apparently the delivery mechanism) and B) to shield themselves from light, C) to cause themselves to sink to escape the light and being washed away and D) to attach to benthic surfaces (be they rocks, plants or animals).
Reasons to reduce A) are obvious.
B) I think we can possibly exploit along with C) and D)....or at least I suspect.
If you have UV and/or a diatom filter available, it seems like you should be able to capture the lions share.
You can use a powerhead to blast your rocks and sand.....this should loosen the majority and get them into the water column.
Done at least a few times during a blackout, perhaps with tank flow turned down as well, any free-swimmers would be disinclined to form mats and be fairly likely to get caught in a diatom or UV filter. The powerhead blasts should dislodge and keep afloat most of the matted dinos.
Not saying that's a complete strategy, but it's what I've imagined so far based on this literature. A workable solution will require some testing and refinement I have no doubt.
Again, dissolved nutrient additions seem to work where the tank isn't extremely compromised already, so I'd try that first.
Experimenting with other options (like the above) after you get the dino's "on the ropes" would be a better position to be in.
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Totally. Having your own scope is best, but until you get one I'd be happy to ID any suspected Dinos that anyone wants to send me. PM me for details. It'd need to be next day shipping, because if it sits more than a day in summer shipping heat, I couldn't ID what was left.
I know you were half-joking, but pulling some debris from the bottom of someone's healthy established algae-filled Fuge would be great to seed a new tank with. There's great stuff in there.Give me some rocks from your display system please
as for the "something" mcarroll gave a good list earlier, and maybe I'll post some specific "somethings" if I get a chance tonight.
Hint: Iciliates.
Ok, to deliver on the tease... pods & snails aren't the only things that eat dinos. Here's my personal unsung hero dino grazers: Ciliates!
This is a large relative of Euplotes having ingested amphidinium (click each pic for link to video)
This is Coleps having ingested an amphidinium and a couple other dino cells (click for vid moving through focal plane). I've seen a bunch of these in other people's tanks too after they had dinos. Common dino grazer?
This is a hypotrich ciliate of some kind
And Finally, my favorite - these worm-looking ciliates eat Ostreopsis (yep) a handful at a time (!). I hadn't posted these when I shot them back in April of 2016, because (heh) I saw these videos and honestly thought we could solve Dino problems by shipping people bottles with a million of these guys to pour in your tank.
Enjoy video
Only 3 problems with that.
1. Had no idea what they were
2. No idea how to culture them to any density
3. Biggest and most importantly - I didn't realize the huge difference between "can eat toxic dinos" - (these do!), and "can grow and multiply on toxic dinos" (nothing does)
two days ago I got an ID for them from this dude's video (of them eating different dinos)
"Ciliado marino,posiblemente Trachelocerca
Su aspecto recuerda al ciliado Lacrymaria"
@taricha nicely done. Boy do I need a new scope, my $100 one is simply not cutting it in comparison.
@fragit Jesse, as you can see from this thread, everyone's suggesting putting dinos under scope first. Send out a sample to taricha, don't do what I did for a year. I listened to random advice and tried everything, things looked better, and a month later back to step 1. After trying a dozen or so different approaches I got a scope.
@fragit Jesse, as you can see from this thread, everyone's suggesting putting dinos under scope first. Send out a sample to taricha, don't do what I did for a year. I listened to random advice and tried everything, things looked better, and a month later back to step 1. After trying a dozen or so different approaches I got a scope.
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mcarroll
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ID is important, but so is the rest of this guidance.
I would almost not bother with one without doing the other.Though even if not ideal, I have to say it's pretty safe to try troubleshooting your tank like you see being done here even if you don't have a scope.
Just stay out from under the bathroom sink and out of the laundry room when you go looking for answers!
(Think of your tank as a garden, not as a dirty shirt!!
)
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Jolanta
Active Member
Totally. Having your own scope is best, but until you get one I'd be happy to ID any suspected Dinos that anyone wants to send me. PM me for details. It'd need to be next day shipping, because if it sits more than a day in summer shipping heat, I couldn't ID what was left.
I know you were half-joking, but pulling some debris from the bottom of someone's healthy established algae-filled Fuge would be great to seed a new tank with. There's great stuff in there.
Ok, to deliver on the tease... pods & snails aren't the only things that eat dinos. Here's my personal unsung hero dino grazers: Ciliates!
This is a large relative of Euplotes having ingested amphidinium (click each pic for link to video)
This is Coleps having ingested an amphidinium and a couple other dino cells (click for vid moving through focal plane). I've seen a bunch of these in other people's tanks too after they had dinos. Common dino grazer?
This is a hypotrich ciliate of some kind
And Finally, my favorite - these worm-looking ciliates eat Ostreopsis (yep) a handful at a time (!). I hadn't posted these when I shot them back in April of 2016, because (heh) I saw these videos and honestly thought we could solve Dino problems by shipping people bottles with a million of these guys to pour in your tank.
Enjoy video
Only 3 problems with that.
1. Had no idea what they were
2. No idea how to culture them to any density
3. Biggest and most importantly - I didn't realize the huge difference between "can eat toxic dinos" - (these do!), and "can grow and multiply on toxic dinos" (nothing does)
two days ago I got an ID for them from this dude's video (of them eating different dinos)
"Ciliado marino,posiblemente Trachelocerca
Su aspecto recuerda al ciliado Lacrymaria"
Wonderfull pictures and video, I could see some of those round creatures in my tank but they were way to small to eat ostreopsis and where it was one of ciliates had 50 of dinos around him,I hope I will get one that eats ostreopsis somehow
You are really lucky to have them.
fragit
2500 Club Member
@nvladik and @mcarroll at this point I'm assuming it's dinos and yes I agree an id would be useful. The point remains that my tank was started with dry Pukani, and utilized the AquaForest system. So my thoughts regardless of what it is, is that my systems biodiversity is pretty lacking. Also for at least 8 months of its almost 10 months of existence was pretty low nutrient. So to start I'm going to re seed with some rubble and grunge from my LFS. And possibly get some garf grunge. Then re plant my refugium which has had no macro algae for about 2 or 3 months thanks to Vibrant. I will be away over the fourth so I'm gonna do a total blackout for those 4 days and see where that leaves me. I will consider sending @taricha a sample if it's still there after the blackout. But regardless as I said my tank needs some biodiversity big time!
K. Steven
Well-Known Member
You can reach out to a local university to get an ID. Any microbiology lab and some molecular biology labs have very good microscopes and can take good images. Most lab technicians/assistants are more than happy to help you out.
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mcarroll
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I've only reached out in a couple of instances and I just picked an author of the paper I was looking at or the webmaster of the publishing website where I was having an issue....where would you start if you were going to look up such a person for microscope help?
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