Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Paullawr]

I know nutrient balance is key for sure. In my situation I have high po4 and no3 and still have large amphidium on my sand. I would of thought with these nutrients it should out completed by other algaes. I am going to stop dosing aquaforest 123 today and siphon my sand to 5 micron sock and add some cheato on the sand to try and out compete the dinos. (Hopefully my tangs don't take a liking to the cheato)

Now this is where it gets both interesting and somewhat hazy at the same time.
Too much of the Nitrogen and it's no better than too little.

That I suspect is largely to do with these compounds becoming more toxic to organisms.

The one reason we have brainwashed in to keeping very low detectable amounts.

The Web is in its infancy compared to many old skool saltiness yet its been around long enough to get a feel for how many cases of dino's there were ten year ago compared to today.

Something must be driving the increase.
More in hobby.
More newcomers spending less time quarenteeing or dipping.
Bigger trade or swaps in coral frags.
Newer technologies keeping tanks pristine.

Whilst more than one factor could be involved a lot does coincde with equipment and new bacterial additives.

There's more of a rush now to add fish than ever before and more kit to let you do it.

 

[cchomistek]

Now this is where it gets both interesting and somewhat hazy at the same time.
Too much of the Nitrogen and it's no better than too little.

That I suspect is largely to do with these compounds becoming more toxic to organisms.

The one reason we have brainwashed in to keeping very low detectable amounts.

The Web is in its infancy compared to many old skool saltiness yet its been around long enough to get a feel for how many cases of dino's there were ten year ago compared to today.

Something must be driving the increase.
More in hobby.
More newcomers spending less time quarenteeing or dipping.
Bigger trade or swaps in coral frags.
Newer technologies keeping tanks pristine.

Whilst more than one factor could be involved a lot does coincde with equipment and new bacterial additives.

There's more of a rush now to add fish than ever before and more kit to let you do it.

If I am hearing you correctly what you are saying is first I may need to strip the nutrients down to nothing and then build them back up by addition to get a handle on this situation. Let me know your thoughts. I have the ability to do that fairly aggressively if need be I think.

 

[Paullawr]

If I am hearing you correctly what you are saying is first I may need to strip the nutrients down to nothing and then build them back up by addition to get a handle on this situation. Let me know your thoughts. I have the ability to do that fairly aggressively if need be I think.

Sort of. Not sure what levels you are running but bring it down to around nitrate 2-5ppm and phosphate around 0.1.
I wouldn't lower it quickly. Bring it down or let it fall itself. They will come down. But don't add anything to lower it.

If you suddenly change it you may end up with other issues.

What dino did you identify?

 

[cchomistek]

Sort of. Not sure what levels you are running but bring it down to around nitrate 2-5ppm and phosphate around 0.1.
I wouldn't lower it quickly. Bring it down or let it fall itself. They will come down. But don't add anything to lower it.

If you suddenly change it you may end up with other issues.

What dino did you identify?

Right now my levels are around 15-20 ppm nitrate (salifert) and .12 po4 (red sea pro). The nitrates and phosphates have been high for a long time. Years. Due to only running fowlr and tap water and not doing too much husbandry. Now I am looking to get things back to where they should be and want to create a mixed reef.

The nitrates I was going to bring down via a nitrate destroyer (large thread on reef2reef) I can put it online and that should pull the nitrates down to where it should be. Phosphates if need be would be reduced some via this technique aswell.

As for what type I have identified large cell and small cell amphidium.

Thoughts?

 

[Paullawr]

15 to 20 isn't all that high actually. I was expecting you to say 80 or something. I wouldnt expect to see a negative effect at that level. Still as I say I'm not really sure on the science behind this.

One worry I have is that if you lower to quickly you may end up finding more than amphidium. It's usually quite common to have a number of strains that all kick in when the environment favours them. Reducing slowly gives things time to catch up.

I don't and have never used a nitrate destroyer so cannot really comment.

Water changes whilst something I wouldnt normally advise may be better along with sand removal. Presume you have sand or just on Rocks.

As taricha said you can rinse the sand to kill it off though when I beat amphidium I got it out completely as a starting point.

 

[Javamahn]

I know nutrient balance is key for sure. In my situation I have high po4 and no3 and still have large amphidium on my sand. I would of thought with these nutrients it should out completed by other algaes. I am going to stop dosing aquaforest 123 today and siphon my sand to 5 micron sock and add some cheato on the sand to try and out compete the dinos. (Hopefully my tangs don't take a liking to the cheato)

Can you tell me where you got the 5 micro socks? Are you going to stop dosing all together or switch back to AF dry to stop with all the trace elements in 123?

 

[cchomistek]

Can you tell me where you got the 5 micro socks? Are you going to stop dosing all together or switch back to AF dry to stop with all the trace elements in 123?

I was thinking of going back to the old school method of Randy's recipe for the time being for the big three.

I want to see if that changes anything. The five micron filters I sourced at my work.

 

[cchomistek]

15 to 20 isn't all that high actually. I was expecting you to say 80 or something. I wouldnt expect to see a negative effect at that level. Still as I say I'm not really sure on the science behind this.

One worry I have is that if you lower to quickly you may end up finding more than amphidium. It's usually quite common to have a number of strains that all kick in when the environment favours them. Reducing slowly gives things time to catch up.

I don't and have never used a nitrate destroyer so cannot really comment.

Water changes whilst something I wouldnt normally advise may be better along with sand removal. Presume you have sand or just on Rocks.

As taricha said you can rinse the sand to kill it off though when I beat amphidium I got it out completely as a starting point.

Yeah I was going to try the 5 micron filters with the addition of some cheato on the sand bed first to see if that could get things under control. If that doesn't work than yes I think removal of the sand bed with water changes over the course of the next while would be my next step.

You say you beat amphidium. Have you seen it return at all since replacing or getting rid of your sandbed??

 

[tonymacc]

It is downright silly not to have a microscope at this price.

mine is on the way

 

[Paullawr]

Yeah I was going to try the 5 micron filters with the addition of some cheato on the sand bed first to see if that could get things under control. If that doesn't work than yes I think removal of the sand bed with water changes over the course of the next while would be my next step.

You say you beat amphidium. Have you seen it return at all since replacing or getting rid of your sandbed??

Good question.

Truthfully I beat it and small cell via a different more aggressive method.

It. Consisted of a 14 day weakening strategy then killed overnight along with ostreopsis and two yet to identified dinoflagellates. One looked was on crack. It moved so fast it was hard to see it.

I did this method because at the time nitrate balancing was well newish and I didn't believe in it. I'm wrong it works as seen here. It's also what I do now in my new smaller tank.

How did I beat 5+ strains in 24 hours? Well first let me say I don't advocate this and and I had nothing to lose by this stage.

First used metroplex to mess with their DNA. Did this for 14 days.

I removed the sand. All of it.

Second I blasted all the rocks everything. Scrubbed the crap out of the tank. Never looked so clean lol.

I blacked out the tank for three days during end of metroplex treatment up to the night I did what I needed. To do.

The killer blow was kalkwasser. I increased the pH from 8.3 to just over 10 instantaneously.

I used enough kalk to maintain that pH until the following day. I then used baked bicarb and dosed again heavily with this over three consecutive days.

Ph came down itself after dosing had finished. With 48hrs back to normal.

I left the tank for three weeks running only GAC.

Three months of normal tank conditions not a sign of a cell.

I moved house 6 months later and brought fish over. Dining room. Was too small for my tank so sold it. Whilst waiting for new tank and custom stand to made the fish went in to smaller quarenteen tank.

No sign of them.

Well...they might be back as bought new livestock from an lfs which clearly had dinos.

I've given up trying to keep stock sterile. You cannot. I've accepted they are everywhere in this hobby.

So nows its about balance.

 

[cchomistek]

Good question.

Truthfully I beat it and small cell via a different more aggressive method.

It. Consisted of a 14 day weakening strategy then killed overnight along with ostreopsis and two yet to identified dinoflagellates. One looked was on crack. It moved so fast it was hard to see it.

I did this method because at the time nitrate balancing was well newish and I didn't believe in it. I'm wrong it works as seen here. It's also what I do now in my new smaller tank.

How did I beat 5+ strains in 24 hours? Well first let me say I don't advocate this and and I had nothing to lose by this stage.

First used metroplex to mess with their DNA. Did this for 14 days.

I removed the sand. All of it.

Second I blasted all the rocks everything. Scrubbed the crap out of the tank. Never looked so clean lol.

I blacked out the tank for three days during end of metroplex treatment up to the night I did what I needed. To do.

The killer blow was kalkwasser. I increased the pH from 8.3 to just over 10 instantaneously.

I used enough kalk to maintain that pH until the following day. I then used baked bicarb and dosed again heavily with this over three consecutive days.

Ph came down itself after dosing had finished. With 48hrs back to normal.

I left the tank for three weeks running only GAC.

Three months of normal tank conditions not a sign of a cell.

I moved house 6 months later and brought fish over. Dining room. Was too small for my tank so sold it. Whilst waiting for new tank and custom stand to made the fish went in to smaller quarenteen tank.

No sign of them.

Well...they might be back as bought new livestock from an lfs which clearly had dinos.

I've given up trying to keep stock sterile. You cannot. I've accepted they are everywhere in this hobby.

So nows its about balance.

Alright thanks for the info. That was quite the aggressive fight. Good on you for tackling that. If you now have dinos again then we might aswell all throw up our hands and just realize that dinos must be everywhere.

Has anyone done a close examination to see if thriving reefs that don't look to have any dino's, actually do have them just the population is under control? Thoughts??

 

[mcarroll]

The nitrates I was going to bring down via a nitrate destroyer (large thread on reef2reef) I can put it online and that should pull the nitrates down to where it should be. Phosphates if need be would be reduced some via this technique aswell.

I'm thinking that algae destroyer thing is supposed to function about like a bio-block and similar things? I would put this whole line of thinking on the shelf "until further notice". Get used to letting the tank be responsible for using up nutrients – algae, herbivores, corals, et al. You (the person) should officially be out of that business. (At least for now.)

 

[Paullawr]

Alright thanks for the info. That was quite the aggressive fight. Good on you for tackling that. If you now have dinos again then we might aswell all throw up our hands and just realize that dinos must be everywhere.

Has anyone done a close examination to see if thriving reefs that don't look to have any dino's, actually do have them just the population is under control? Thoughts??

As I say I think all tanks do. I've not been to one lfs in hundred mile radius that doesn't not have them stringing away or patching on sand.

I think the reefs that don't have them are run by very select patient individuals running chillers and ensuring nothing changes suddenly. You probably would find it's people that don't dose because theynsay corals don't need it.

 

[cchomistek]

I'm thinking that algae destroyer thing is supposed to function about like a bio-block and similar things? I would put this whole line of thinking on the shelf "until further notice". Get used to letting the tank be responsible for using up nutrients – algae, herbivores, corals, et al. You (the person) should officially be out of that business. (At least for now.)

Ok I will keep it offline for now. The nitrate destroyer basically is creating large surface area for denitrifying bacteria to grow in the reactor rather than trying to boost up the population in the display. You add vodka to the reactor to feed the bacteria and slowly trickle water through the reactor to allow the bacteria to eat away the nitrates. That is the premise.

 

[Lowefx]

Are dinos causing my LPS to look like this?

 

[mdd1986]

Here is my best attempt to take pictures under this toy scope i bought on amazon. This is 1200x zoom. Can't really tell what it is.

 

[Denisk]

My one is question is before the Dino outbreak, I was dosing 20ml of two part for all the sps frags I had. Then I was able to get rid of Dino at least for the time being with a UV and no3/po4 dosing. My no3 is at 10ppm and po4 .14

The problem is my if I dose two part my alk keeps rising. It’s as if my sps stopped taking in two part.

Is that due to the high phosphate?

Anyone else see this issue?

 

[taricha]

Has anyone done a close examination to see if thriving reefs that don't look to have any dino's, actually do have them just the population is under control? Thoughts??

If you mean wild reefs, then yes. Benthic dinos (our trouble kinds) are present on substrate in small numbers any place and time that scientists bother to look for them.

Are dinos causing my LPS to look like this?

I vote no.

Here is my best attempt to take pictures under this toy scope i bought on amazon. This is 1200x zoom. Can't really tell what it is.

us neither. Is it clearer to your eye than those pics?because if so, you could do comparison to pics/vids at algaeid.com

My one is question is before the Dino outbreak, I was dosing 20ml of two part for all the sps frags I had. Then I was able to get rid of Dino at least for the time being with a UV and no3/po4 dosing. My no3 is at 10ppm and po4 .14

The problem is my if I dose two part my alk keeps rising. It’s as if my sps stopped taking in two part.

Is that due to the high phosphate?

Anyone else see this issue?

Does your alk rise out of balance to Ca? Or both are slowing down?
Studies have found that total stony coral growth doesn't slow at those PO4 levels, but calcification does. So more coral tissue just slightly less dense skeleton.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588
"colonies of Acropora muricata were ...exposed to phosphate levels of 0.09, 0.20, and 0.50 mg/L [ppm] for four months. ...Linear extension and tissue growth increased under all conditions. Growth rates were highest at a phosphate concentration of 0.50 mg/L. Weight increased through time, graded from low to high with phosphate concentration. Density decreased through time, and was significantly lowest in the high phosphate treatment. Phosphate concentration produced no visible effects of stress on the corals, as indicated by polyp extension and lack of mortality. It is suggested that the phosphate enhanced growth was due to increased zooxanthellar populations and photosynthetic production within the coral. Skeletal density reduction may be due to phosphate binding at the calcifying surface and the creation of a porous and structurally weaker calcium carbonate/calcium phosphate skeleton."

 

[Denisk]

@taricha so when I stopped dosing during the Dinobloom, it was almost as if ca and alk hardly dropped.

When I just started dosing again, my alk went up and and my calcium went down. But I mean I started with only 5ml a day of both in a 93 gallon system with over 20 sps frags.

No corals are dying. But I’m not sure how at one point 20ml a day was normal and now I can just not dose and have no fluctuations. I stopped dosing just now and alk is at 10.1. I’ll be curious to see what it drops to tomorrow.

 

[cchomistek]

If you mean wild reefs, then yes. Benthic dinos (our trouble kinds) are present on substrate in small numbers any place and time that scientists bother to look for them.[/QUOTE

No not wild reefs. I mean thriving aquariust reefs.