Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Alitoo.81]

It is good you are asking. I've heard of many people using ozone. Though, I want to side with Randy, that it may kill other organisms including dino. You can't tell an oxidizer to pick one from the other.

Ozone will not be in the tank forever, only to control them back. I will use a UV after Ozone. It seems that with the Ozone is faster, but riskier. So, Ozone attacks dino any were in the tank and UV needs them to be in the water column. mmm, so maybe using first the Ozone then the UV is not a bad idea.

What about using Ozone and UV at the same time? Did anyone try this? too risky?

 

[reeferfoxx]

Ozone will not be in the tank forever, only to control them back. I will use a UV after Ozone. It seems that with the Ozone is faster, but riskier.

If it works for you, you should still add nutrients and work on rebuilding micro organisms. This will help in the long run.

 

[Alitoo.81]

If it works for you, you should still add nutrients and work on rebuilding micro organisms. This will help in the long run.

I think rebuilding microorganisms is way easier. A little of AF Life Source and many life pods that I can find here in Germany will solve this. I started with dry rocks and sand, so will be like starting again with microorganism ones I win the war.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I think rebuilding microorganisms is way easier. A little of AF Life Source and many life pods that I can find here in Germany will solve this. I started with dry rocks and sand, so will be like starting again with microorganism ones I win the war.

Nice! Fiji mud

 

[Beardo]

What is MV ? I use apex to control the Ozone at 400-420 Orp, but I don't know what is mv. I went back in the pages of this post and someone claimed that the Ozone worked for him.

mV is millivolts. It is the unit of measure for ORP.

 

[Alitoo.81]

is it normal to the PH to go down when dosing Ozone? or when ozone is going up?

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

It is good you are asking. I've heard of many people using ozone. Though, I want to side with Randy, that it may kill other organisms including dino. You can't tell an oxidizer to pick one from the other.

We can say the same thing about UV. What ever goes into it is getting irradiated. Granted the UV doesn't come out with the return water but both should have the greatest impact on things in the water column because they are drawing water through themselves. It would be interesting to note which if any types are not respondent. This makes me wonder if UV and ozone will or will not be equally effective.

Update on my situation with large cell amphididium. All of my equipment arrived yesterday and I measured water conditions. Red Sea low range nitrates 0.00 ppm, Red Sea low range phosphate between 0.04 and 0.08 ppm but closer to 0.04. On the Hanna ULR phosphorus it reads 0.045 ppm (converted from 15 ppb). Nice to see the two test are in agreement. This is my starting point for dosing SeaChem Flourish Phosphorus and Spectracide stump remover (KNO3). I previously was running over the recommended amount of PhosGuard which brought PO4 to zero even on the Hanna ULR.

I siphoned out all the dino strings I could into a bucket with a 10 micron filter. Some of the dinos got through it but it was largely effective. I would try a smaller micron rating next time. I dumped the water back in after the dinos that made it through the filter clumped in the bottom of the bucket. I didn't add any phosphate because I want to get the nitrates higher than the phosphates to try and help prevent cyano outbreaks. I remember reading cyano can occur when phosphates are higher than nitrates. That is actually why I added the PhosGuard. So I only added 1/2 teaspoon of Spectrcide. I also put the filter over the inlet to my refugium to see if it would catch anything over night. I didn't see anything in the sock this morning but I also don't see much if any dino snot on the rocks and GHA. I usually see some return the next day when I clean it out.

I did add carbon a week ago but failed to measure how much I put in my reactor. I was starting lose my snails so figured I needed to get out the toxins ASAP. So I added how ever much would fit in the bag that came with the Red Sea carbon and still fit in my Minimax reactor. The snails and my GSP are much happier and active.

 

[Paullawr]

What is MV ? I use apex to control the Ozone at 400-420 Orp, but I don't know what is mv. I went back in the pages of this post and someone claimed that the Ozone worked for him.

Its they way or is measured in water.

450 is considered by most as the highest you should safely go. Pushing it 500 is the absolute max really for a reef aquarium. At least that's general consensus. Water becomes completely sterile at around 600mv with usually hazardess effects. Again, not from personal experience, just general consensus.

If it's working great. There are loads of things that's worked for people that haven't worked for others.

 

[Paullawr]

is it normal to the PH to go down when dosing Ozone? or when ozone is going up?

Ph will go down temporarily.

 

[Paullawr]

We can say the same thing about UV. What ever goes into it is getting irradiated. Granted the UV doesn't come out with the return water but both should have the greatest impact on things in the water column because they are drawing water through themselves. It would be interesting to note which if any types are not respondent. This makes me wonder if UV and ozone will or will not be equally effective.

Update on my situation with large cell amphididium. All of my equipment arrived yesterday and I measured water conditions. Red Sea low range nitrates 0.00 ppm, Red Sea low range phosphate between 0.04 and 0.08 ppm but closer to 0.04. On the Hanna ULR phosphorus it reads 0.045 ppm (converted from 15 ppb). Nice to see the two test are in agreement. This is my starting point for dosing SeaChem Flourish Phosphorus and Spectracide stump remover (KNO3). I previously was running over the recommended amount of PhosGuard which brought PO4 to zero even on the Hanna ULR.

I siphoned out all the dino strings I could into a bucket with a 10 micron filter. Some of the dinos got through it but it was largely effective. I would try a smaller micron rating next time. I dumped the water back in after the dinos that made it through the filter clumped in the bottom of the bucket. I didn't add any phosphate because I want to get the nitrates higher than the phosphates to try and help prevent cyano outbreaks. I remember reading cyano can occur when phosphates are higher than nitrates. That is actually why I added the PhosGuard. So I only added 1/2 teaspoon of Spectrcide. I also put the filter over the inlet to my refugium to see if it would catch anything over night. I didn't see anything in the sock this morning but I also don't see much if any dino snot on the rocks and GHA. I usually see some return the next day when I clean it out.

I did add carbon a week ago but failed to measure how much I put in my reactor. I was starting lose my snails so figured I needed to get out the toxins ASAP. So I added how ever much would fit in the bag that came with the Red Sea carbon and still fit in my Minimax reactor. The snails and my GSP are much happier and active.

Great read and good update.

 

[Paullawr]

It is good you are asking. I've heard of many people using ozone. Though, I want to side with Randy, that it may kill other organisms including dino. You can't tell an oxidizer to pick one from the other.

Its indiscriminate in what the unstable oxygen molecule is going to react with. Anything it touches first.

UV is the same in that regard though it is more specific to water passing through. Combination of two may have better effects???

 

[Javamahn]

I am seeing a bit of daylight in this dark and nasty war. To date I have done the following. Dose with Vibrant thinking it was cyano, Dosed Chemiclean thinking it was cyano. Multiple water changes thinking it was diatoms. Microscope to identify as ostreopsis. Multiple 3 day lights off. Dosed 10ml H2O2 daily bringing ORP up from low 200s to low 300s. Ozone bringing ORP up from high 200s to high 300s. Dosing KNO3 (stump remover) to raise Nitrates from 2.5ppm to 5.0 ppm and NeoPhos to raise PO4 from 0.0 to 0.08 - 0.1 ppm. Turned off GFO. Added 35W UV sterilizer on to return manifold feeding back into filter sock Apex FMM reads 200GPH.. Continued Microscope observations identified as Amphinidium based on movement which is linear not circular like ostreopsis. Siphon top layer of sand to rid bulk of the dino. Had to put back 7 gallons of new water but it hs been almost a month without a water change While aphinidium are not supposed to be light sensitive lights out shows reduced numbers on the sand. I just did 2 days of lights out with UV running and sand looks much better. Purchased a 10 micron filter sock and made a dino-vac using a 5 gallon bucket and an old Rio 800. and brushed all the LR today. I fed heavy today with Hikari Mysis and turned on just the blues on the Radions and the polyp extension was the best it has been in weeks. Stylos and Birdsnest looked "fluffy". Sand looks white. I wil continue on this path for at least 2 more weeks before full lights and a small water change. The rest of my paramters are holding steady and PH is doing well between 8.0 and 8.4. weather in Az has been nice so doors are open most of the day now. If this is a success then I hope everyone else in this thread sees the same and keeps on fighting.I don't wish this on anyone. Thanks again to all the folks in here. As they say "Strength in numbers" Not sure I would have had any answers without the folks contributing here.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Its indiscriminate in what the unstable oxygen molecule is going to react with. Anything it touches first.

UV is the same in that regard though it is more specific to water passing through. Combination of two may have better effects???

I would assume yes. I would also think ozone to be more effective but they both only tackle the water column.

I am seeing a bit of daylight in this dark and nasty war. To date I have done the following. Dose with Vibrant thinking it was cyano, Dosed Chemiclean thinking it was cyano. Multiple water changes thinking it was diatoms. Microscope to identify as ostreopsis. Multiple 3 day lights off. Dosed 10ml H2O2 daily bringing ORP up from low 200s to low 300s. Ozone bringing ORP up from high 200s to high 300s. Dosing KNO3 (stump remover) to raise Nitrates from 2.5ppm to 5.0 ppm and NeoPhos to raise PO4 from 0.0 to 0.08 - 0.1 ppm. Turned off GFO. Added 35W UV sterilizer on to return manifold feeding back into filter sock Apex FMM reads 200GPH.. Continued Microscope observations identified as Amphinidium based on movement which is linear not circular like ostreopsis. Siphon top layer of sand to rid bulk of the dino. Had to put back 7 gallons of new water but it hs been almost a month without a water change While aphinidium are not supposed to be light sensitive lights out shows reduced numbers on the sand. I just did 2 days of lights out with UV running and sand looks much better. Purchased a 10 micron filter sock and made a dino-vac using a 5 gallon bucket and an old Rio 800. and brushed all the LR today. I fed heavy today with Hikari Mysis and turned on just the blues on the Radions and the polyp extension was the best it has been in weeks. Stylos and Birdsnest looked "fluffy". Sand looks white. I wil continue on this path for at least 2 more weeks before full lights and a small water change. The rest of my paramters are holding steady and PH is doing well between 8.0 and 8.4. weather in Az has been nice so doors are open most of the day now. If this is a success then I hope everyone else in this thread sees the same and keeps on fighting.I don't wish this on anyone. Thanks again to all the folks in here. As they say "Strength in numbers" Not sure I would have had any answers without the folks contributing here.

Misidentification can hurt the worst. Glad things are looking up. Seems I'm not the only one cycling multiple strains. After things clear up I would keep water changes few and far between. Switch out carbon if need be but the tank is still fragile. Good luck!

 

[Paullawr]

I am seeing a bit of daylight in this dark and nasty war. To date I have done the following. Dose with Vibrant thinking it was cyano, Dosed Chemiclean thinking it was cyano. Multiple water changes thinking it was diatoms. Microscope to identify as ostreopsis. Multiple 3 day lights off. Dosed 10ml H2O2 daily bringing ORP up from low 200s to low 300s. Ozone bringing ORP up from high 200s to high 300s. Dosing KNO3 (stump remover) to raise Nitrates from 2.5ppm to 5.0 ppm and NeoPhos to raise PO4 from 0.0 to 0.08 - 0.1 ppm. Turned off GFO. Added 35W UV sterilizer on to return manifold feeding back into filter sock Apex FMM reads 200GPH.. Continued Microscope observations identified as Amphinidium based on movement which is linear not circular like ostreopsis. Siphon top layer of sand to rid bulk of the dino. Had to put back 7 gallons of new water but it hs been almost a month without a water change While aphinidium are not supposed to be light sensitive lights out shows reduced numbers on the sand. I just did 2 days of lights out with UV running and sand looks much better. Purchased a 10 micron filter sock and made a dino-vac using a 5 gallon bucket and an old Rio 800. and brushed all the LR today. I fed heavy today with Hikari Mysis and turned on just the blues on the Radions and the polyp extension was the best it has been in weeks. Stylos and Birdsnest looked "fluffy". Sand looks white. I wil continue on this path for at least 2 more weeks before full lights and a small water change. The rest of my paramters are holding steady and PH is doing well between 8.0 and 8.4. weather in Az has been nice so doors are open most of the day now. If this is a success then I hope everyone else in this thread sees the same and keeps on fighting.I don't wish this on anyone. Thanks again to all the folks in here. As they say "Strength in numbers" Not sure I would have had any answers without the folks contributing here.

Excellent update and well done. It's hard work that's for sure as can been seen in your update. One thing to remember is that they can rebound just when you think you have won or winning. So stay vigilant and continue to do what's working for you.

 

[Alitoo.81]

Hi,

update, the second day in Blackout with only Ozone. 90% of the Dinos are gone for now. I will only do 2 days, tomorrow will turn light back. I think Ozone is more aggressive than UV. That said, I have a big fish quarantine system that I used with Ozone when I had fish in. I used Ozone for 45 days and today I can see some pods in it (no more fish or ozone in the system). Ozone do kill pods right?

 

[Alitoo.81]

One question, who has Dinos with high ORP (400-450 ORP) without Ozone and UV? sometimes the ORP is high without Ozone and UV. I think that this info may be important.

 

[tonymacc]

did a 50ltr w/c yesterday and a syphon, today we have 16ppm no3 and .08 po4, so a rise in no3 and a slight drop in po4, am dosing 2 x 7ml flourish nitrogen (am/pm) and 2 x 3ml flourish phosphorous (am/pm). I shall skip the next 24 hrs with dosing no3 in the hope that it'll drop to around the 10/12 mark. I notice I am getting the brown powdery looking stuff (diatoms?) but no snot today.

 

[mcarroll]

While aphinidium are not supposed to be light sensitive lights out shows reduced numbers on the sand.

the second day in Blackout with only Ozone. 90% of the Dinos are gone for now

Disappearing Dino's
Several types will reduce the matting/mucus production when lights are off....just means they are not under light stress anymore, you can't see them with the naked eye anymore, and they feel free to swim/move around. Does not mean "the dino's have left the building" or even that you're necessarily making progress, unfortunately.

Water Change Mystery
FYI, I'm still in the camp that doesn't think water changes should have any negative effect in most cases.

The suspicion in the reported cases is that there's some other mystery nutrient limiting the bloom. (Iron has been mentioned, but other possibilities exist too.)

However, that mystery limitation is also going to be a limit on healthy microorganisms...not only dino's. So why avoid it?

So if you try a water change and get a negative reaction, then fine maybe you have such a mystery. But please troubleshoot to figure out what the mystery nutrient seems to be so we can finally have a nicely documented case to try and understand.

But I currently see no reason for everyone to assume such negative side effects. Water changes should pretty much always be a net-positive.

Always An Exception
A possible exception would be if your water change water is really different than your tank water – such as having zero nutrients in it and/or significantly different ca/mg/alk numbers, etc.

Match your water change water to your tank water as close as you can for all of these parameters....the bigger the water change, the newer the system, (the worse the dino bloom), the more important this will be.

This is not something unique to dino blooms, but might be more important in this context.

If your system was a no-water change system before, then I would not start up an aggressive water change program just for your dino bloom. That's the case where I'd be filtering my gravel vac water through a micron sock or something and then returning it to the tank.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Water Change Mystery
FYI, I'm still in the camp that doesn't think water changes should have any negative effect in most cases.

The suspicion in the reported cases is that there's some other mystery nutrient limiting the bloom. (Iron has been mentioned, but other possibilities exist too.)

However, that mystery limitation is also going to be a limit on healthy microorganisms...not only dino's. So why avoid it?

So if you try a water change and get a negative reaction, then fine maybe you have such a mystery. But please troubleshoot to figure out what the mystery nutrient seems to be so we can finally have a nicely documented case to try and understand.

But I currently see no reason for everyone to assume such negative side effects. Water changes should pretty much always be a net-positive.

It was my understanding that dino, like other organisms, require some type of trace elements? With that to maintain stable nutrients. We could fill the 5-15% nutrient loss within the wc or reduce DOCs and other contaminants with gac or a skimmer. With the addition of a UV sterilizer(the more affordable 'what if' treatment) and everyday mechanical filtration, what would the overall benefit be? To be honest, I saw more progression without water changes or dosing(big 3) the tank, for what that's worth. So why fill any limiting trace element factor to support or maintain a bloom?

I will say I am one of those mysterious reefers experiencing negatives with water changes. The cost of investigating the reason is a bit pricey. Then correcting it... Since it is a concern for me, I've taken precautions to prevent bad source water and/or salt. Yet, I'm a little bit of a chicken when it comes to doing the water change. ;Shy I can usually go a month before I break down and perform one. The result is brown dusting for about a week or 2. Of course this was before I beefed up my ro/di and switched salts.

I will say there are some reefers testing the limits of no water changes on SPS dominant nano tanks. The only concern for a water change is the pollutants aside from maintaining parameters, for some. It is interesting to watch and has sort of changed my perception of what is necessary. I do agree at the same time that there are net positives for correcting issues. Even Triton will support that.

If your system was a no-water change system before, then I would not start up an aggressive water change program just for your dino bloom. That's the case where I'd be filtering my gravel vac water through a micron sock or something and then returning it to the tank.

Agreed.

 

[Alitoo.81]

Disappearing Dino's
Several types will reduce the matting/mucus production when lights are off....just means they are not under light stress anymore, you can't see them with the naked eye anymore, and they feel free to swim/move around. Does not mean "the dino's have left the building" or even that you're necessarily making progress, unfortunately.

Of caurse, they are still in. I know that they are hard to eliminate but, I saw the strings un attaching before the blackout with Ozone and strings where all over the corals. So I blacked out the tank. I will use both Ozone and UV, then only UV after they are gone. I am dosing daily 120ml of Phosphorus and po4 is still low 0,02.